[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] A question for those who.....

[Poster0]

There is no sense debating this further. What im suggesting is a discovery of truth from inside our self that science cannot observe using conventional techniques. It must be examined with the heart which is that part of us that wishes to live beyond the limitations of this short life. We all have that desire within, to live beyond those limitations, but science cannot explore this using microscopes. This is very important to each of us though and needs to be explored. I don't want to put a contentious stumbling block in anyone's path. I hope you will not allow my own limitations to cause any offense which may close your mind to this thing i am talking about. I guess i should just stop talking now. Please forgive any offence i may have triggered, if any at all. Thanks and have a nice day.

 

[Freodin]

Typical atheist response. You are lying or it is not true. As Jack Nicholson said In "A Few Good Men" "You can't handle the truth."

Oh and by the way. Scientifically minded people don't say "you are lying" or "I don't believe you." Only people who want to obfuscate the truth say that.

Oh, the "I don't believe you, you are lying (or 'presenting fantasy hogwash evidence', to stay within the language of this thread)" was me using the position of my esteemed opponent here. (Congratulation to admitting that people who want to obfuscate the truth say that. Sadly Poster0 seems to have left the discussion. I would like to have heard his response to that.)

And I return the compliment: typical Christian response: when asked for evidence, accuse the one asking of not accepting the truth. (And quoting fiction for that, to top that.)

Well done, Sir, well done!

But as I am indeed a scientifically minded person, I ask you again to present your evidence for testing.

 

[Oafman]

You may be in favour of freedom of religion but there are plenty of atheist out their who are determined to push the line of freedom from religion. Richard Dawkins said in a TV programme that now that religion is losing its influence the world is a better place.

Of course it is a better place if you place your head in the sand and ignore the fact that there are more wars going on in the history of mankind now than at any other time.

Ignore we are murdering millions of babies in the womb every year, in greater numbers than ever before.

Ignore that sex slavery is rampant worldwide with 22 million women and children slaves to it.

Ignore that suicide is rising all the time amongst young people.

Ignore that poverty has increased dramatically in the last 10 years.

Ignore that domestic violence is on the rise.

Ignore that the sexual abuse of children is increasing.

Ignore that children as young as 10 are accessing pornography on the internet.

Ignore that 62% of black children in America grow up without a father.

Despite all this yes, the world is a better place. Don't make me laugh.

I think you're wrong about almost every claim in this post.

Seeing as they're your claims, can you provide convincing evidence to support them?

 

[As I was saying]

We have no problem with you following what you believe. What we do is stop you from converting others, denying the truth, stopping others from practicing their beliefs.

Self righteousness in all its glory. Atheists in general go out of their way to try and convert others to their religion of nothing; if you didn't, you would not be spreading your lies on a Christian forum trying to deny the truth. Can I ask how many times you have been stopped from practicing your belief in nothing by christians. Hazard at a guess and I would say not once.

Conversely, my computer is full of stories of atheists trying to stop christians from practicing their beliefs, even to the point of involving the courts to shut them up. It seems that those atheists who believe in the freedom of religion are a small minority.

 

[Eudaimonist]

You didn't follow exactly what i was saying.

Okay.

Im suggesting that love is the ultimate of all truth.

I'm not sure what that means. Can you define both "love" and "truth" for me?

I am suggesting that without eternal life then love is ultimately meaningless because its only temporary like life is only temporary, but if eternal life is real then love is the ultimate truth and its the essence of what we are.

Why must something be ultimately meaningful? Temporary meaning is still meaning.

I was suggesting that love is the part of us that is meaningful, and love, along with happiness, is the motivation for everything we do, so love in essence is us, its the driving force behind everything we do.

How would you understand people being motivated by other emotions, such as hatred?

So if love is just a neurological condition and nothing more than we are nothing.

If love is just a "neurological condition", it is still love, and we are still motivated at least in part by love. Motivations come from neural activity.

If we do not have eternal life and this brief period of existence in this world is all there is, then life is meaningless.

That does not follow. A temporary life can be meaningful.

Why observe science if it is an observation meaninglessness? [sic]

Why indeed? (I assume you are asking why one would make scientific observations if observations are meaningless.)

I don't see how scientific observations are meaningless.

What im saying might be hard to understand using only an outward observation of this world, and we must look within ourselves, at that part of us that desires to live forever, in order to understand what im suggesting about love and happiness as being our true essence. This is an internal observation of what we are that im suggesting.

I understand that you are introspecting.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

Self righteousness in all its glory. Atheists in general go out of their way to try and convert others to their religion of nothing

Self righteousness in all its glory. Christians in general go out of their way to try and convert others to their religion of nothing.

Please take your trollish comments elsewhere.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[As I was saying]

Well done, Sir, well done! But as I am indeed a scientifically minded person, I ask you again to present your evidence for testing.

First I have deleted the rest of your post because it is self serving superficiality.

Second, you are not scientifically minded because if you were you would not believe in evolution which is not scientific it is a philosophy.

You don't want evidence. You want an argument. The head honcho of the atheists in my country said in a piece that miracles do not happen today. i sent him all the details of a miracle that took place that would have allowed him to verify the miracle or not as the case may be.

Did he follow up on it? No and he never will because he is afraid of the truth like you and most other atheists.

 

[asherahSamaria]

Self righteousness in all its glory. Atheists in general go out of their way to try and convert others to their religion of nothing; if you didn't, you would not be spreading your lies on a Christian forum trying to deny the truth. Can I ask how many times you have been stopped from practicing your belief in nothing by christians. Hazard at a guess and I would say not once.

Conversely, my computer is full of stories of atheists trying to stop christians from practicing their beliefs, even to the point of involving the courts to shut them up. It seems that those atheists who believe in the freedom of religion are a small minority.

Conversely, my computer is full of stories of atheists trying to stop Christians from practicing their beliefs - This looks like a sweeping straw man argument. What beliefs exactly are being stopped?

 

[Eudaimonist]

You dont seem able to comprehend my observation because you seem to have closed your mind to the boundaries of science, as if what you feel cannot be observed scientifically because you cant put it under a microscope. It must be observed with the heart, not the eyes.

No, I comprehend your observation just fine.

I'm explaining how you have closed your mind to science by my giving you a scientific explanation for the heartfelt desire to live even beyond death. I'm saying that your explanation is by no means the only possible explanation, even if we keep yours on the table.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Poster0]

Jesus said that unless one is born again, they cannot see the Kingdom of God. No one is born again unless they have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit of God. No one can be regenerated by the Holy Spirit unless they come to Jesus as Lord and Savior. No one can come to Jesus as Lord and Savior unless the Father draw them. No one can be drawn by God unless God choose to draw them.

From beginning to end, salvation is a work of God to which we contribute nothing save the sins that necessitate our salvation.

Poster0, remember that the natural carnal man will not receive the things of God because he is unable to receive them apart from a work of God taking place in the heart. Therefore pray for this for them that God has called you to minister to.

Sorry i didnt see your post till now. You are correct that we cannot find God unless we look with our heart. That's the way God has made it. He wants us to follow love and to him seek with our heart. I do pray that those who do not seek God will do so. Amen brother.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Self righteousness in all its glory. Atheists in general go out of their way to try and convert others to their religion of nothing; if you didn't, you would not be spreading your lies on a Christian forum trying to deny the truth. Can I ask how many times you have been stopped from practicing your belief in nothing by christians. Hazard at a guess and I would say not once.

Atheism is not a "belief in nothing." How can we take you seriously when you get basic facts wrong?

Conversely, my computer is full of stories of atheists trying to stop christians from practicing their beliefs, even to the point of involving the courts to shut them up. It seems that those atheists who believe in the freedom of religion are a small minority.

Share some of these stories with us. I wager you are confusing religious liberty with religious privilege.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

First I have deleted the rest of your post because it is self serving superficiality.

Second, you are not scientifically minded because if you were you would not believe in evolution which is not scientific it is a philosophy.

You don't want evidence. You want an argument. The head honcho of the atheists in my country said in a piece that miracles do not happen today. i sent him all the details of a miracle that took place that would have allowed him to verify the miracle or not as the case may be.

Did he follow up on it? No and he never will because he is afraid of the truth like you and most other atheists.

I'm sure he receives reports of miracles on a daily basis. Don't be offended that he didn't respond. You're not special.

 

[paulm50]

YOu forget that the bible taught the Israelite's to protect themselves from Germs before science ever discovered them. While Egypt was putting dung in medicine, Israel had purity laws which protected them from germs and many other things too. God gave them those laws.

The bible also teaches men to kill, rape, enslave, loot, etc. God gave them the right.

Yes some ancient men had good hygiene laws, so did the Japanese and others. Are they in touch with the same god as yours?

As for science being theory. You are now using the results of science. Are they still theory? You make broad inaccurate statements that weaken your message, state which science is theory and what part is theory. As for guesswork, you couldn't be more wrong.

 

[paulm50]

You may be in favour of freedom of religion but there are plenty of atheist out their who are determined to push the line of freedom from religion. Richard Dawkins said in a TV programme that now that religion is losing its influence the world is a better place.

Of course it is a better place if you place your head in the sand and ignore the fact that there are more wars going on in the history of mankind now than at any other time.

Ignore we are murdering millions of babies in the womb every year, in greater numbers than ever before.

Ignore that sex slavery is rampant worldwide with 22 million women and children slaves to it.

Ignore that suicide is rising all the time amongst young people.

Ignore that poverty has increased dramatically in the last 10 years.

Ignore that domestic violence is on the rise.

Ignore that the sexual abuse of children is increasing.

Ignore that children as young as 10 are accessing pornography on the internet.

Ignore that 62% of black children in America grow up without a father.

Despite all this yes, the world is a better place. Don't make me laugh.

You mean more than when records were kept.
Abortion is a terrible problem, letting the fetus live could be worse. Are you prepared to pay for the upkeep of the child to the time it finds a job? The best prevention is proper contraception. Something frowned on by many cultures, because god is supposed to have said, go forth and multiply.

Slavery is legal in the bible, including sex slavery. The best way to stop it is to legalise prostitution. Making sure the women involved are free and willing.

Poverty and population growth are linked. Along with it comes domestic violence, suicide, women going into prostitution willingly, having to abort babies they can't afford, poor education, lack of jobs. Do you really think there's a quick and easy answer to these problems, without cutting the world population by 20% approx?

As for porn on the Internet, how would you stop it?

 

[Poster0]

Okay.



I'm not sure what that means. Can you define both "love" and "truth" for me?



Why must something be ultimately meaningful? Temporary meaning is still meaning.



How would you understand people being motivated by other emotions, such as hatred?



If love is just a "neurological condition", it is still love, and we are still motivated at least in part by love. Motivations come from neural activity.



That does not follow. A temporary life can be meaningful.



Why indeed? (I assume you are asking why one would make scientific observations if observations are meaningless.)

I don't see how scientific observations are meaningless.



I understand that you are introspecting.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Not that i want to keep reiterating myself, but i'll answer your post. I'll address all your questions here, as much as possible. Did you actually read any of my posts? I tried to define love as truth. If you go back and read my posts you will see, it may take a little study and meditation to grasp what i was saying, just like many other things need as well, but i assure you that there is an explanation there.

Motivations don't come from neural activity. Neural activity is an effect caused by our motivations. That's why i say scientific data can easily be misinterpreted resulting in fallacy, and that's why i don't trust evolution for example, because its based on too many complex variables and much of it is just speculation anyway.

As far as your question about being motivated by hate goes, that is us as well.That is another truth that is part of who we are. We are love and hate. We are not a body of flesh, we are instead what is in our heart, that love and hate. Being motivated by hate can be good or bad i suppose depending on what we hate. I hate death and that's not a bad thing. I love life and that's not a bad thing either. If i love death however, that's a bad thing. We cant see everything there is with our natural eyes. God gives us spiritual eyes as well, and without them we are blind. We must look within our heart to discover this truth, and i know that may sound strange and it did to me at one time too, but i see it clearly now.

 

[Poster0]

What we love and hate determines who we are. Its what distinguishes each of us from each other, its that part of us that wants to live and be happy. This flesh and blood doesn't determine who we are. The neural activity in our brain doesn't either. Its whats in our heart, the love and hate, that determines who we are. That's what i'm trying to say. We must look within our heart, not the neural activity or flesh and blood, to see who we are.

I cannot explain it any better

 

[paulm50]

Self righteousness in all its glory. Atheists in general go out of their way to try and convert others to their religion of nothing; if you didn't, you would not be spreading your lies on a Christian forum trying to deny the truth. Can I ask how many times you have been stopped from practicing your belief in nothing by christians. Hazard at a guess and I would say not once.

Conversely, my computer is full of stories of atheists trying to stop christians from practicing their beliefs, even to the point of involving the courts to shut them up. It seems that those atheists who believe in the freedom of religion are a small minority.

As do the religious. The problem for the religious is, they no longer have the law that stops us.

 

[Poster0]

The bible also teaches men to kill, rape, enslave, loot, etc. God gave them the right.

Yes some ancient men had good hygiene laws, so did the Japanese and others. Are they in touch with the same god as yours?

As for science being theory. You are now using the results of science. Are they still theory? You make broad inaccurate statements that weaken your message, state which science is theory and what part is theory. As for guesswork, you couldn't be more wrong.

Is there no end to this blind misrepresentation of my words? I never said science as a whole was theory, i only said some of it was. Please, dont bother to reply anymore, this discussion is hopelessly deadlocked in idealism masquerading as good science. You apparently think all science is good and we must blindly follow it no matter where it leads, and we should never question it. I don't share that idealism. The bible says not to kill, rape and steal. You are misrepresenting it as well. You can accuse God of those things but the truth is that you are speaking evil of things you dont understand. Please, if you dont like the bible then dont come to Christian web sight. No one is asking you to come here and argue with people.

 

[Poster0]

As do the religious. The problem for the religious is, they no longer have the law that stops us.

We dont need the law and dont care what you do. I dont go to Atheist or Huminist websites and argue with them, i dont care what they do.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I dont go to Atheist or Huminist websites and argue with them, i dont care what they do.

There are some Christians who do.


eudaimonia,

Mark