[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] A problem at the bottom of reason

[Eudaimonist]

Being honest with yourself is a great place to start if you want to find truth. Being honest with yourself doesn't change anything about the universe, it just changes how you view the universe.

Honesty is all that "inner truths" are. They can just as easily be called "inner beliefs", otherwise known as beliefs. Inner "truths" are simply beliefs that form the core of one's worldview, and the lens through which one understands everything else. They might be true, but they don't actually have to be true -- they are merely felt with conviction to be true.

So, whatever it is that is felt so strongly that it is trying to get out is worthless without at least some reason to think that they are true after all. There is no mystical shortcut to truth.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

The proof comes from your relationship with God. not from mine.

Try to avoid circular reasoning.

How do you know that you have a relationship with God? What makes that knowledge? Why should anyone (including yourself) think that you don't simply have a relationship with some other aspect of your own psychology? Or a relationship with confirmation bias?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Freodin]

Great and reasonable answer. But I would point out that just as there have been lots of people who have claimed things with no good reason to believe them, there have also been lots who had good reason to believe them, i.e. miracles and such, prophetic truth that cannot be explained away, etc.. And then there is the personal testimony (would be claims). A couple hundred wackos a year, does not justify turning a deaf ear to the millions of others like myself who are genuine. And while you all may have been waiting for hundreds of years for the supernatural to effectively show itself, millions upon millions of us have seen and witnessed that which you have missed. The fact that you missed it, while so many others did not...well, a detective would have to say, "What's really missing here?"

But I want to stop short of venting (sorry for what slipped out), and take your comment about "not even knowing what to look for" serious. That is an awesome statement, and much appreciated!

My personal discovery of seeing behind the curtain, came when I did not believe. I simply ran out of options, ideas. I gave up after knocking on every other door. In the quiet of my own moment of tragedy, I just started talking (really in disbelief) as a challenge to God...and he answered. So...what they say, is true. Keep knocking.

Now...I don't believe, I know.

You might call me stubborn, hard-hearted, pridefull... but the point is: I don't believe you.

You can claim that you know, that you got proof, that you received answers, miracles, prophecies... but you have nothing to show. None of the "millions of others" do.

As I see it, you all are "wackos"... and I have tried my best to give you all the opportunity to prove me wrong.

 

[Davian]

 

[KCfromNC]

I don't see where "faith leading to knowledge" is the topic. But I would answer that by saying, there are plenty of example all throughout history. Most of the world's population have been people of faith.

And the majority of them use that faith to believe in mutually contradictory things. That's not a particularly great track record.

Within Christianity it is even a promise: "Seek and you shall find." and all who seek, do. Unless, of course, you seek in the wrong place...which was the aspect of this topic I was meaning to address.

How does it explain Muslism, Hindus or Buddhists? People who look in the right place but find the "wrong" thing according to Christianity? Heck, how does it explain the fact that Protestants exist? Their truth is different than Catholic or Orthodox believers and yet they all use the same approach.

I don't follow you here. My example of the skeptics of the new world discovery, was simply intended to show that history supports the idea that skepticism is not the best approach for seeing over new horizons.

Again, I'm simply not seeing the comparison. The questions involved in exploring a westward passage to Asia all relied on stuff people had observed - the size of the earth, the supplies needed to make the trip, and so on. The questions involved in looking beyond observational evidence are the opposite - we have to believe we're somehow missing something by ignoring a system which has failed to produce knowledge for the 5000+ years people have tried it.

 

[Chriliman]

How does it explain Muslism, Hindus or Buddhists? People who look in the right place but find the "wrong" thing according to Christianity? Heck, how does it explain the fact that Protestants exist? Their truth is different than Catholic or Orthodox believers and yet they all use the same approach.

There is an major difference between following what man says about God and following what the Spirit of God says about God. The Spirit of God is true wisdom and knowledge, this can only be accessed by believing in Jesus with all your heart soul and mind. This true wisdom and knowledge allows you to see all the blatant issues with every other religion, all you have to do is question a person who claims to believe in God to realize whether they believe in the one true God or some god described by man and made in man's image to do what man wants. God didn't create us so that we can tell him what he is to us, but rather he created us so we can glorify him. Trust me, being found worthy to glorify God has been and is and will be the greatest experience ever.

 

[Eudaimonist]

The Spirit of God is true wisdom and knowledge, this can only be accessed by believing in Jesus with all your heart soul and mind.

How do you know that your belief actually does "access" true wisdom or knowledge?

Trust me, being found worthy to glorify God has been and is and will be the greatest experience ever.

I have no reason to trust that you are in a position to have experienced all great experiences in order to arrive at a determination as to which is the greatest experience ever.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[ScottA]

You might call me stubborn, hard-hearted, pridefull... but the point is: I don't believe you.

You can claim that you know, that you got proof, that you received answers, miracles, prophecies... but you have nothing to show. None of the "millions of others" do.

As I see it, you all are "wackos"... and I have tried my best to give you all the opportunity to prove me wrong.

I NEVER!

The problem is that you seem to think it is reasonable to ask for infinite truth, within a finite existence. It's not. In that perspective, I hope you can appreciate that, that makes you the wacko...for asking (expecting) a square peg to fit in a round hole. Wacko, just wacko.

 

[madera23]

Try to avoid circular reasoning.

How do you know that you have a relationship with God? What makes that knowledge? Why should anyone (including yourself) think that you don't simply have a relationship with some other aspect of your own psychology? Or a relationship with confirmation bias?


eudaimonia,

Mark

For one thing proof is that God heals without asking for it when you least expect it.
The bible says God knows what we need. That is the truth.
Miracles just happen.
You have no idea of what A God He is.
your mind has been taken over by a spirit that hates the truth.
I don't want to boast or I would give you a recent miracle.
It would only go in one ear out the other, so why bother.
Most Christians lack the spiritual aspect of God, they only know what they read.
I believe you are an atheist because you recognize something is not kosher.

 

[ScottA]

How does it explain Muslism, Hindus or Buddhists? People who look in the right place but find the "wrong" thing according to Christianity? Heck, how does it explain the fact that Protestants exist? Their truth is different than Catholic or Orthodox believers and yet they all use the same approach.

Wrong is wrong, whether it be Hindu or a version of would be christianity who have strayed so far they cannot rightfully be called Christian. It is in the nature of mankind to attempt to fill the void of what is missing in the world...even if it is wrong, and they do. That doesn't change the fact that there is a greater purpose at hand. That greater purpose, is to seek and to save that which was lost...NOT recover that which does not want to be found. The world is creation generated, pixel animation...all of it, all of US. The difference is, those who are content with their own self-pursuits, will not make it out of the movie set alive...because they have no desire to, and they don't believe they can. Pixels.

Again, I'm simply not seeing the comparison. The questions involved in exploring a westward passage to Asia all relied on stuff people had observed - the size of the earth, the supplies needed to make the trip, and so on. The questions involved in looking beyond observational evidence are the opposite - we have to believe we're somehow missing something by ignoring a system which has failed to produce knowledge for the 5000+ years people have tried it.

The only comparison, is that there is something more. Granted, many do not have the knowledge that has been presented. But it has been shared by first-hand eyewitnesses all throughout history. But infinite knowledge cannot be perceived with the naked eye, nor within a finite setting or mind. Step out.

 

[madera23]

Wrong is wrong, whether it be Hindu or a version of would be christianity who have strayed so far they cannot rightfully be called Christian. It is in the nature of mankind to attempt to fill the void of what is missing in the world...even if it is wrong, and they do. That doesn't change the fact that there is a greater purpose at hand. That greater purpose, is to seek and to save that which was lost...NOT recover that which does not want to be found. The world is creation generated, pixel animation...all of it, all of US. The difference is, those who are content with their own self-pursuits, will not make it out of the movie set alive...because they have no desire to, and they don't believe they can. Pixels.


The only comparison, is that there is something more. Granted, many do not have the knowledge that has been presented. But it has been shared by first-hand eyewitnesses all throughout history. But infinite knowledge cannot be perceived with the naked eye, nor within a finite setting or mind. Step out.

SCOTTA
you are the only real Christian I recognize.

When someone steps out they are mocked. I see few real Christians in humanity truth is mocked. People pleasers are hurting one another.
Scripture says they read but they do not perceive.

They are religious and lack the spiritual part of Christianity which brings them more Christ like, he stepped out and told the religious hypocrites what he thought of their hypocracy.unlike the hypocrical
so called christians of today.

thank you for your words.
madera

 

[Eudaimonist]

For one thing proof is that God heals without asking for it when you least expect it.

Why can't one's own body and psychology do that? I don't ask for paper cuts to heal, but they do. Perhaps I expect it because I have had them before, but if I didn't know of their existence, it would be surprising. It is not surprising to me that positive changes can happen in one's life unexpectedly.

The bible says God knows what we need. That is the truth.

It may be a truth about what the Bible says. It amounts to circular reasoning in demonstrating the existence of God. If the doctrines of Scientology say that they know what we need, and if one can show that there is some good advice in there, does that mean that body thetans actually exist?

Miracles just happen.

Stuff just happens, they don't have to be miracles.

You have no idea of what A God He is.
your mind has been taken over by a spirit that hates the truth.

Quite the opposite. It is because I want to know the truth that I am an atheist, that I am philosophical, and that I am scientific.

That's a convenient defensive mechanism you have there. If someone disagrees with your religious views, they must not want to know what is true.

It helps to explain why you think that you have access to "true wisdom and knowledge", because you evidently think that you don't have one of those truth-hating spirits. It suggests that you have a very mystical (i.e. non-rational) way of looking at knowledge and wisdom.

I don't want to boast or I would give you a recent miracle.
It would only go in one ear out the other, so why bother.

Yeah, why would I want evidence to consider? It's so good that you are sparing me that.

The problem isn't that your story would "go in one ear and out the other", it's that my brain happens to be between my ears. It intercepts the story, carefully evaluates it using reasoning skills, and prevents it from being accepted as successful evidence towards your claims for no good reason. The "problem" (it is actually a virtue) is the exact opposite of what you claim.

Most Christians lack the spiritual aspect of God, they only know what they read.

Which category are you in?

I believe you are an atheist because you recognize something is not kosher.

Not kosher?

If you mean: "does not stand the test of reason", you are right. I don't mean to be rude, but your post is a good example of something that registers in my mind as "not kosher".


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[quatona]

The problem is that you seem to think it is reasonable to ask for infinite truth, within a finite existence. It's not.

I haven´t seen anyone asking for "infinite" truth.
The problem is that you claim to be in hold of a truth (be it finite or infinite - whatever that distinction is supposed to mean, anyway) without being able to demonstrate it.

 

[madera23]

You might call me stubborn, hard-hearted, pridefull... but the point is: I don't believe you.

You can claim that you know, that you got proof, that you received answers, miracles, prophecies... but you have nothing to show. None of the "millions of others" do.

As I see it, you all are "wackos"... and I have tried my best to give you all the opportunity to prove me wrong.

 

[madera23]

The demon living In you blinding you.
when I refer to not kosher are the religious , not the spiritual
it really does not matter what you think.
Have a good life.
Madera

 

[Eudaimonist]

The demon living In you blinding you.

I can see that you have your own "demons" of blindness, and far worse than any I might have.

when I refer to not kosher are the religious , not the spiritual

Thank you for explaining that. I wasn't sure what you had meant.

it really does not matter what you think.

Nor you.

But I don't think that you care about rational thought, period. You are focused on mystical sources of knowledge or blindness.

Have a good life.

You too!


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[KCfromNC]

Wrong is wrong, whether it be Hindu or a version of would be christianity who have strayed so far they cannot rightfully be called Christian.

But a Christian who ends up with the wrong conclusion is using the exact same method as one who ends up with the right answer.

It is in the nature of mankind to attempt to fill the void of what is missing in the world...even if it is wrong, and they do. That doesn't change the fact that there is a greater purpose at hand. That greater purpose, is to seek and to save that which was lost...NOT recover that which does not want to be found. The world is creation generated, pixel animation...all of it, all of US. The difference is, those who are content with their own self-pursuits, will not make it out of the movie set alive...because they have no desire to, and they don't believe they can. Pixels.

It is cool you have faith in this, but I'm not convinced. Any reason to think you've got this right?

The only comparison, is that there is something more. Granted, many do not have the knowledge that has been presented. But it has been shared by first-hand eyewitnesses all throughout history.

Yep, and most of that testimony directly contradicts the religion you believe in. So if this testimony is valid evidence, why haven't you converted?

But infinite knowledge cannot be perceived with the naked eye, nor within a finite setting or mind. Step out.

Unless you're claiming you have an infinite mind, that means that none of us can say anything about it. Which kind of contradicts all of the preaching you've been doing in this and other threads. So which is it - do you have an infinite mind or are you telling us you have no knowledge of god?

 

[Chriliman]

SCOTTA
you are the only real Christian I recognize.

When someone steps out they are mocked. I see few real Christians in humanity truth is mocked. People pleasers are hurting one another.
Scripture says they read but they do not perceive.

They are religious and lack the spiritual part of Christianity which brings them more Christ like, he stepped out and told the religious hypocrites what he thought of their hypocracy.unlike the hypocrical
so called christians of today.

thank you for your words.
madera

Madera, the things you are saying are very polarizing. As Christians it should be our goal to be united as one body in Christ and reach out to those in need with love. It seems you'd rather push those who claim to be Christian away for some reason that I don't understand. God is doing work in me that has changed my life dramatically and without that life changing work I'd be lost forever. I'd ask that you don't push away those that God can work through, but rather embrace the work that God is doing and rejoice in knowing his plan is perfect.

 

[ScottA]

I haven´t seen anyone asking for "infinite" truth.
The problem is that you claim to be in hold of a truth (be it finite or infinite - whatever that distinction is supposed to mean, anyway) without being able to demonstrate it.

Okay. Define finite, and define infinite. Their definitions ARE the demonstration you have asked for.

You know of the finite world...and we have been telling you there is more, that there is a greater infinite reality. Within that greater reality, the finite world was created, just as Pixar or Disney have created little worlds full of characters. But...it is ALL make-believe and without life...it's ALL just energy powered pixels. And if you want to know about ACTUAL reality beyond this contrived world, then you will look for it, have hope in it, ask...and if you do, then you will receive. If not, when the lights go out, it's over.

 

[ScottA]

But a Christian who ends up with the wrong conclusion is using the exact same method as one who ends up with the right answer.

Sorry about that...we're only human.

It is cool you have faith in this, but I'm not convinced. Any reason to think you've got this right?

You either have it in you to seek it out...or [sorry again], you don't.

Yep, and most of that testimony directly contradicts the religion you believe in. So if this testimony is valid evidence, why haven't you converted?

You turning it around doesn't changed the overriding facts...which, of course, are not in your view [sorry again]. But you will never see them if you continue to repel them. The mountain is there...but...you don't to climb it.

Unless you're claiming you have an infinite mind, that means that none of us can say anything about it. Which kind of contradicts all of the preaching you've been doing in this and other threads. So which is it - do you have an infinite mind or are you telling us you have no knowledge of god?

I am telling you (and corroborating) what is written: We [not just I] have the (infinite) mind of Christ, and it is no longer I who live (in this finite) body, but Christ who lives in me.