[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] A problem at the bottom of reason

[ScottA]

Yes, I agree. I have a perfectly workable consistent approach to evaluating claims from various sources. That's why I'm not a Christian.

But...have you considered that not allowing magic in a make-believe world, will never produce any?

Oh, how I wish there were no children who were never allowed to play, to make-believe! My job would be so much easier.

 

[Davian]

Seeker Davian
Do you have an idea of what you are seeking? Curious.

Accurate descriptions of reality.

If you are seeking God,

No, I do not seek religion.

He is within you.

Yikes! How creepy.

The secret is to hunger and thirst to overcome your lower nature.

What 'lower nature'?

Do you get angry, have you ever hurt someone you love, Do you feel guilt.

I do not get angry, but I would feel bad about hurting anyone. Why do you ask?

This is not an easy path, it can be painful at times, but that pains leads to the answer you are looking for, change.
Never mind what reality is out there, look within for the reality you are seeking.
Madera

To avoid self-deception, I believe one should be most critical of what one really wants to be true.

 

[Davian]

Finally! We now can dispense of the Pixelland analogy? Shall I inform Websters, or would you like to? Shout it from the rooftops!

You do realize, I hope, that I only used the analogy...because the Universe is commonly thought to be something more. But if we can move on, and leave the children's riddles behind...I shall do so gladly.

I'll wait to see it happen.

 

[Davian]

0. Please, could you stop using the lists? It is messing up the quote function..

Just highlight the text/list you are replying to, and click on the 'ordered list' button on the format bar above.

 

[ScottA]

Going for your faulty "new world" rant again?

Have you yet found the new world full of dinosaurs and skyscrapers, anti-grav knights on bio-engineered horses in the middle of your garden? No? Could it because there is something else in your garden that doesn't allow for all these things?

I know the "new world"... and it doesn't have space for your version. (Well, it does. And doesn't. You wouldn't understand. Just keep looking and you might get it.)

I sent you two rescue boats, a helicopter, my Son walking on the water, and a new world...what were you waiting for, test results?

 

[Davian]

God himself is not bothered by anything, to be bothered would mean he would find something out that he didn't already know that would be the cause of his bother. He can't learn because he already knows everything at all times, so from God's perspective everything is perfect as it should always be and will be forever. But from our perspective, a sacrifice had to be made in order for us to be able to share in this perfection. This sacrifice is Jesus

Jesus is not God?

and Jesus is well aware of this evil because he actually lived as a human and experienced all the evil we experience, so only Jesus is capable of destroying this evil

But he still struggles to do so?

and he was sent by perfect God who already knows this evil has been destroyed.

If it has already been destroyed, what is Jesus struggling with? Have you really worked this out?

Again, you'll either eventually understand this deeply or you'll never understand it because you'll never believe. So as long as your not 100% certain that you'll never believe, then there is a possibility you will understand in the future.

There is always the possibility. I do recall believing in crop circles and Santa.

 

[Davian]

1. "Where"...what a concept. There is no "where", only everywhere.
2. "Wait, that doesn't sound right..." said Mickey Mouse to Donald Duck. Of course, they would say that...and you would. Are we back to Pixelland then? Boy, that was brief!

You are leading the way, McDuck.

 

[Davian]

I sent you two rescue boats, a helicopter, my Son walking on the water, and a new world...what were you waiting for, test results?

Wait - when did this happen?

 

[Chriliman]

Jesus is not God?

All divine aspects of Jesus are one with God because Jesus is at the right hand of God. Jesus serves a purpose for God that is within God's will, therefore Jesus wields all the power of God and can be thought of as God in His divine state. When Jesus lived on earth he set aside his divinity in order to fulfill God's will. Only through the sacrifice of Jesus, do we have access to God. This is Christianity 101, I'm surprised you don't know this, oh wait your not Christian, never mind

But he still struggles to do so?

Its not that Jesus struggles to do so, what he accomplished at the cross is finished. Its just that free willed humans struggle to see the truth, simply because they have free will, which is free from God's will. However, at anytime, you can choose to believe in God and choose His will over your own will, Jesus makes this possible.

If it has already been destroyed, what is Jesus struggling with? Have you really worked this out?

See above.

There is always the possibility. I do recall believing in crop circles and Santa.

Well, believing in lies will always lead to confusion, but believing in the Truth will lead to complete perfect clarity.

 

[Freodin]

Your logic has failed you. You do not ask witnesses for firsthand information. Or, am I in the wrong world? No, I didn't think so.

Err, yes, I think you are in the wrong world. Or at least in the wrong analogy.

Sight one prophet's statement that contradicts what I said of the end. What did you think the end was?

Some example for your pleasure. What do you think "the end of the world" means, when "the world" keeps going on?

Time, all time, is analogy, a story that is told. It doesn't exist, except in the story.

Reality is the only consistent story. It sets the standard (even of time) on which all other stories must be measured.

There is no clock. Exactly! Do elaborate your views on it.

There is a clock. It ticks. The thing that doesn't tick isn't a clock.

Hahahaha...I would have thought you would like the chronological approach!

I like a "chronological" approach, almost as much as a logical approach. What I don't like is the new forum system. But Davian's advice helped. (See, in the real world, people can tell you what to do, you can see what to do and do it... and it works!)

1. I guess for the analogy to work...you actually have to follow it.

If it is impossible to follow an analogy, it doesn't work.

2. But I did explain...the world is ALL analogy. If you are ever to advance beyond this point, the idea is that you first pass the elementary parables of learning.

That sounds really deep... but isn't. It doesn't even address my point... but what else am I to expect from someone who hasn't anything to offer?

3. Satan get behind me. I shall not be throwing the baby out with the bath water (oops, another analogy), nor shall I be the one to obscure the needle in the in the haystack (darn!).

You don't have a baby. And in this haystack, there is only hay. Analogies can only take you so far. Even if you believe that the world is all analogy... it isn't all the same analogy.

I sent you two rescue boats, a helicopter, my Son walking on the water, and a new world...what were you waiting for, test results?

Say, aren't you the guy who talked about the importance of witness, personal revelation and experience? What have you done with the real Scott Taylor?

 

[Davian]

All divine aspects of Jesus are one with God because Jesus is at the right hand of God. Jesus serves a purpose for God that is within God's will, therefore Jesus wields all the power of God and can be thought of as God in His divine state. When Jesus lived on earth he set aside his divinity in order to fulfill God's will. Only through the sacrifice of Jesus, do we have access to God. This is Christianity 101, I'm surprised you don't know this, oh wait your not Christian, never mind

I have watched this video:

Its not that Jesus struggles to do so, what he accomplished at the cross is finished. Its just that free willed humans struggle to see the truth, simply because they have free will, which is free from God's will. However, at anytime, you can choose to believe in God and choose His will over your own will, Jesus makes this possible.

See above.

Belief is not a conscious choice.

Well, believing in lies will always lead to confusion, but believing in the Truth will lead to complete perfect clarity.

I do not accept your religious opinion as 'Truth'.

 

[Chriliman]

I have watched this video:

Take space and time away and all confusion about the trinity is gone, whats left is pure truth.

Belief is not a conscious choice.

Correct, but believing what makes the most sense is reasonable and expected, unless you're deliberately choosing to be unreasonable.

I do not accept your religious opinion as 'Truth'.

I respect your position, I'm just trying to give reasons for my beliefs that make sense, I can't help it if you choose to ignore my reasoning.

 

[Davian]

Take space and time away and all confusion about the trinity is gone, whats left is pure truth.

Without space and time is non-existence.

Correct, but believing what makes the most sense is reasonable and expected, unless you're deliberately choosing to be unreasonable.

It makes most sense to believe that the Earth is flat, and that the Cosmos rotates around us.

Rotating Stars

• Davian
• May 26, 2014

Australian Astronomical Observatory

I respect your position, I'm just trying to give reasons for my beliefs that make sense, I can't help it if you choose to ignore my reasoning.

You have only provided 'reasoning' for why it makes sense to you, but nothing for why it should be considered an accurate description of reality.

 

[Chriliman]

Without space and time is non-existence.

Is this something you can prove? Or are you just asserting your assumptions?

It makes most sense to believe that the Earth is flat, and that the Cosmos rotates around us.

It would be unreasonable to believe this given the knowledge we have gained about the truth, correct?

You have only provided 'reasoning' for why it makes sense to you, but nothing for why it should be considered an accurate description of reality.

Can a human ever perfectly describe reality? Why not?

 

[paulm50]

If you where in the desert seeking a drink of water (life) and I had a canteen full, you (by default) are under no obligation to accept it either. The good news SHOULD be welcomed by those who seek...if it is not, that is a sign of your identity as not being of God. But that is okay, the poor in spirit, shall inherit the earth (return to it). Enjoy!

Why do you assume that those who don't believe are in need or seeking anything?

I was a Christian, I was in need of real answer. Atheism gave them to me, being a kind man and wanting others treated well, took me to be a Humanist.

This is a take on having the "spirit". One has to believe in it first to have it, which defeats the object.

As for believing in an all powerful god who can do anything. I ask why he would kill so many and not save/teach/enlighten them first. On many occasions he never even tried to save people.

 

[paulm50]

The spiritual realm (aka, the Spirit) is the realm that exists beyond the universe, that made the universe (a make-believe creation with a temporary purpose).

The Universe isn't make believe, you can see a little bit of it every night.

Is this something you can prove? Or are you just asserting your assumptions?

Disprove it.

It would be unreasonable to believe this given the knowledge we have gained about the truth, correct?

Once, before we gained knowledge, that was what we believed.

Can a human ever perfectly describe reality? Why not?

My reality is what I can see or have seen. I trust that Australia is real, even though I have never seen it.

Something I have to believe is real, before I have seen proof it's real. Is something I question. So go on evidence only.

 

[Davian]

Is this something you can prove? Or are you just asserting your assumptions?

There is nothing to prove.

existence; noun

1. the fact or state of living or having objective reality.

Without time and space, there is nothing to measure.

Now, if you would like to define "existence" as something else, then do so, and shoulder your burden of proof.

It would be unreasonable to believe this given the knowledge we have gained about the truth, correct?

I do not accept your religious opinions as 'truth'.

Can a human ever perfectly describe reality?

No, and I never claimed we could.

Why not?

Irrelevant.

Have you anything that might show that gods are not just characters in books?

 

[Davian]

But...have you considered that not allowing magic in a make-believe world, will never produce any?

Oh, how I wish there were no children who were never allowed to play, to make-believe! My job would be so much easier.

I can accept gods as just make-believe.

 

[ScottA]

Some example for your pleasure. What do you think "the end of the world" means, when "the world" keeps going on?

That is just a list of religious commentaries, not prophets. I told you what the end means when the world keeps going on. It's personal death. But you simply don't understand. From this side death happens at the end of "our" time. But from the greater, eternal reality, it is ALL simultaneous. And to finish the explanation: When all of "our" times are finished, then the [collective] end will come.

Reality is the only consistent story. It sets the standard (even of time) on which all other stories must be measured.

That would only be true for the tail, if the tail thought it might wag the dog. Not going to happen.

There is a clock. It ticks. The thing that doesn't tick isn't a clock.

What thing?

Analogies can only take you so far. Even if you believe that the world is all analogy... it isn't all the same analogy.

Yes, that is the point. The world is made up of millions of hypothetical analogies, that is its purpose: To demonstrate. And if you want to go further, you have to go beyond the world of analogies...beyond the natural world.

 

[madera23]

She?

I seek accurate descriptions of reality.

sorry, did I hurt your manhood?