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[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] A problem at the bottom of reason

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True Scotsman

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I believe it's true because it makes sense. Me believing in it has nothing to do with the sense that it makes. Now if it is actualy true then this infinite timeless entity would be truth itself and I would have nothing to ad or detract from that truth, I can only believe in it and experience it as truth. Until you experience this truth for yourself you will not understand. If you believe the truth can be found, then it will find you.
Truth is an attribute of identification. It is a product of our minds process of identifying and integrating the information brought to us by the senses. This is the process of reason. It is our only means of acquiring knowledge. It is a result of the relationship between our consciousness and existence or the subject of consciousness(observer) and the objects of consciousness(things we observe or consider). So the very first issue involved with truth is this relationship and its proper orientation. Without this relationship there is no such thing as truth. Since consciousness presupposes the answer to the question: consciousness of what?, existence is metaphysically primary. Consciousness is consciousness of something as opposed to nothing. A consciousness with nothing to be conscious of (no objects) is a contradiction in terms and would commit the fallacy of the stolen concept.

While our senses and perceptual level consciousness work automatically to bring us awareness of the things around us the conceptual faculty is not automatic. It is volitional in nature and so you must choose to reason. Truth is not some entity or substance out there that will "find you" and seep into you or press itself into your mind. Knowledge must be acquired by an active process and then validated by a process of logic. Logic is the art or skill of non-contradictory identification of the facts of reality. If an idea or concept corresponds to the facts of reality then it is true and if not not. This whole process is necessitated because reality is what it is independently of our conscious activity. Facts are facts whether we like it or not. It existence is not primary then there is no logic or truth or facts or knowledge or intelligible reality. Reality would be made up of contradictions. Things could be and not be at the same time and in the same respect or reality could be one thing for some and another for others.

You seem to be operating under the gravely mistaken notion that a worldview must hold that all consciousnesses enjoy metaphysical primacy over their objects in order to hold a primacy of consciousness metaphysics. This is why you alternately uphold and then deny the primacy of existence, contradicting yourself at every turn. That is not correct. If a worldview holds that only one consciousness enjoys primacy over its objects then it endorses metaphysical subjectivism. This is because reality can not have two contradictory natures. Reality can not both have primacy and not have primacy at the same time and in the same respect. This is the law of non-contradiction and it is a corollary to the axiom of identity. Hence to deny the soundness of premise one of my argument is to deny the axiom of identity which we already know would be an exercise in futility since you would have to identify what it is you are denying. You see how the axioms are invulnerable to attack.

Now notice what you said at the last of your post. "If you believe the truth can be found, then it will find you." Simply by an act of conscious will, by believing, you can acquire the truth. This is an explicit endorsement of metaphysical subjectivism or in other words the primacy of consciousness. So even in trying to answer my question in the way that you think you are avoiding endorsing subjectivism, and thus not contradicting the primacy of existence, you end up endorsing the primacy of consciousness. And the way you answered the question shows me that you do recognize the problem, so you are being disingenuous in your answer. Because it was a polar question requiring a yes or no answer. Because you don't hold your basic premises consciously you can't help but contradict yourself. That is why Objecitvism names these most basic principles explicitly and holds to them consistently in all branches of philosophy. To my knowledge it is the first philosophic system in the history of the world to do this. Thank you Ayn Rand.

If the religion you follow were not totally intellectually bankrupt on these issues then you would not be making so many basic blunders as you do. I'm happy to correct them because I love ideas and I think they are the most important things in the world.

You may think it arrogant of me to say this but it is true. I know what your basic premises are but you don't. That's because I have an understanding of fundamentals thanks to Objectivism. It took me 8 years to finally get it but now it's got.
 
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Chany

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I believe it's true because it makes sense. Me believing in it has nothing to do with the sense that it makes. Now if it is actualy true then this infinite timeless entity would be truth itself and I would have nothing to ad or detract from that truth, I can only believe in it and experience it as truth. Until you experience this truth for yourself you will not understand. If you believe the truth can be found, then it will find you.

It does not really make sense; perhaps the basic notion of a god can be argued for, but when you start looking deeper into specific gods, like the god of Christianity, things start to get weird. Imagine if we were to offer the Biblical story as a never-before-seen plot for a new movie or book. Would the story make any sense? To be frank, no, it would not.

There is no such thing as "truth itself". "Truth", again, is a label we put upon propositions. When we use truth as a noun ("I seek the truth of the matter"), all I am really saying is "I seek to discover what propositions I should label as true and what propositions I should label as false". The truth will not find you in any real sense. Perhaps a highly poetic sense, but not when we really define our terms philosophically.
 
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True Scotsman

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It does not really make sense; perhaps the basic notion of a god can be argued for, but when you start looking deeper into specific gods, like the god of Christianity, things start to get weird. Imagine if we were to offer the Biblical story as a never-before-seen plot for a new movie or book. Would the story make any sense? To be frank, no, it would not.

There is no such thing as "truth itself". "Truth", again, is a label we put upon propositions. When we use truth as a noun ("I seek the truth of the matter"), all I am really saying is "I seek to discover what propositions I should label as true and what propositions I should label as false". The truth will not find you in any real sense. Perhaps a highly poetic sense, but not when we really define our terms philosophically.


This is really important what you say here. He is treating truth as if it is some entity which is independent of consciousness instead of as you say, an attribute of propositions. I like what you said about truth being a label we put on propositions that correspond to reality.
 
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Eudaimonist

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This is really important what you say here. He is treating truth as if it is some entity which is independent of consciousness instead of as you say, an attribute of propositions. I like what you said about truth being a label we put on propositions that correspond to reality.

Yep, I pointed this out way back in post #151.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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True Scotsman

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Yep, I pointed this out way back in post #151.


eudaimonia,

Mark
Sorry Mark, I'm usually so pressed for time that I often miss posts though I always try to catch all of yours. I have to say that you are one of the more astute posters I've ever encountered on any forum.
 
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HitchSlap

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I believe it's true because it makes sense. Me believing in it has nothing to do with the sense that it makes. Now if it is actualy true then this infinite timeless entity would be truth itself and I would have nothing to ad or detract from that truth, I can only believe in it and experience it as truth. Until you experience this truth for yourself you will not understand. If you believe the truth can be found, then it will find you.
You sound like a Christian mystic.
 
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HitchSlap

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You seem to be assuming that it is I who have decided they are the same. It is not I, but he, whom being the revelator, did not leave me to guess or to wonder, or even to "believe", but to "know" him. You may have read how he revealed himself as the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, the connection which he made by name. In my case, he did the same in name, but also without name but by association. There are many was to connect the dots. He has use them all.
I just asked how you knew it was the same god/s.
 
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ScottA

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It is limited to the things it can study, namely stuff we have evidence for.
I do grant theology and revelation all of the respect they deserve - which in the field of learning about reality is basically zero. Even people who claims that they are useful only believe the results when those results agree with what they already hoped was true. That says a lot.
That is the point. Not only does science only study within its own limitations, it refuses to consider other areas: in your own words "zero."

There are people in both camps who "believe" and "hope" what they have heard is suppose to be true. But what you apparently do not recognize is that there are also people in both camps who "know" what is true.

So reality goes to science, and gods are left with the rest.

Only the reality within the sphere of science goes to science...and as much as you say you grant theology, etc. your bottom line grant is "zero."

Just once, it would be nice if someone like yourself could/would expand their horizon and consider the foreign concepts outside the school of scientific learning, and say, "Wow, I know nothing of what you are saying, but obviously there is something huge there to consider, which I am totally unaccustomed to and ill-prepared to comment." I don't know why this is so difficult, but it would appear to be impossible. We ALL grant our own ignorance when we walking to a women's clothing store, etc. So the only explanation must be that science has some sort of complex about ignorance, and is afraid of venturing out of their comfort zone. It's such a sad testimony on humanity. Of course (predictably) you all continue to deny your own inability to venture out. :(
 
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HitchSlap

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That is the point. Not only does science only study within its own limitations, it refuses to consider other areas: in your own words "zero."

There are people in both camps who "believe" and "hope" what they have heard is suppose to be true. But what you apparently do not recognize is that there are also people in both camps who "know" what is true.



Only the reality within the sphere of science goes to science...and as much as you say you grant theology, etc. your bottom line grant is "zero."

Just once, it would be nice if someone like yourself could/would expand their horizon and consider the foreign concepts outside the school of scientific learning, and say, "Wow, I know nothing of what you are saying, but obviously there is something huge there to consider, which I am totally unaccustomed to and ill-prepared to comment." I don't know why this is so difficult, but it would appear to be impossible. We ALL grant our own ignorance when we walking to a women's clothing store, etc. So the only explanation must be that science has so sort of complex about ignorance, and are afraid venturing out of their comfort zone. It's such a sad testimony on humanity. Of course (predictably) you all continue to deny your own inability to venture out. :(
Knowledge is demonstrable.
 
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ScottA

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I just asked how you knew it was the same god/s.
He (not I) confirmed it instantly, and continues to do so. Each day there are new revelations that contribute to the greater truth. Of course, they are only discerned spiritually. So, sorry, but unless one sincerely commits to knowing the whole truth, that self-limitation will hold them in blindness. If you want to see behind the curtain, you have to ask...and not me, but Him. Knock, and the door shall be opened to you. I promise.
 
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Chriliman

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It does not really make sense; perhaps the basic notion of a god can be argued for, but when you start looking deeper into specific gods, like the god of Christianity, things start to get weird. Imagine if we were to offer the Biblical story as a never-before-seen plot for a new movie or book. Would the story make any sense? To be frank, no, it would not.

There is no such thing as "truth itself". "Truth", again, is a label we put upon propositions. When we use truth as a noun ("I seek the truth of the matter"), all I am really saying is "I seek to discover what propositions I should label as true and what propositions I should label as false". The truth will not find you in any real sense. Perhaps a highly poetic sense, but not when we really define our terms philosophically.

I understand how you define truth. What I'm saying is why can't I define truth as non-physical and infinitely timeless, meaning truth has no beginning and no end simply because it has always existed and exists now and will exist forever, truth is timeless? What understanding of truth do you have that would prove that my definition is false?

Now I really want you to answer the above questions without going off on some tangent about how you define truth. Just honestly answer the questions.
 
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HitchSlap

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He (not I) confirmed it instantly, and continues to do so. Each day there are new revelations that contribute to the greater truth. Of course, they are only discerned spiritually. So, sorry, but unless one sincerely commits to knowing the whole truth, that self-limitation will hold them in blindness. If you want to see behind the curtain, you have to ask...and not me, but Him. Knock, and the door shall be opened to you. I promise.
You'll forgive me if I don't take your word for it.
 
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True Scotsman

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I understand how you define truth. What I'm saying is why can't I define truth as non-physical and infinitely timeless, meaning truth has no beginning and no end simply because it has always existed and exists now and will exist forever, truth is timeless? What understanding of truth do you have that would prove that my definition is false?

Now I really want you to answer the above questions without going off on some tangent about how you define truth. Just honestly answer the questions.
But truth is non-physical and timeless. It is conceptual in nature and time, according to the objective theory of concepts, is an omitted measurement. There is no expires by date on a concept.
 
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Chriliman

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This is really important what you say here. He is treating truth as if it is some entity which is independent of consciousness instead of as you say, an attribute of propositions. I like what you said about truth being a label we put on propositions that correspond to reality.

Now you contradict yourself, because I thought you believed that the universe would still exist even if you became unconscious. Meaning even if all humans became unconscious all at once, it would still be true that the universe would exist. If you don't believe it would be true that the universe would still exist even if all humans were unconscious, then you must believe human consciousness creates the universe. And I thought this is the exact opposite of what the primacy of existence principal states.

For me, I believe its true that the universe would still exist even if all humans became unconscious, simply because I believe truth is infinite and timeless and our human consciousness is not infinite and timeless, there for truth is equal to God and God is truth because God describes himself as infinite and timeless and God existence does not depend on our consciousness.
 
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dlamberth

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It's such a sad testimony on humanity. Of course (predictably) you all continue to deny your own inability to venture out. :(
Your words need to be expanded to include the religious as well. Often, they would be equally guilty in denying their ability to venture out.

.
 
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True Scotsman

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Now you contradict yourself, because I thought you believed that the universe would still exist even if you became unconscious. Meaning even if all humans became unconscious all at once, it would still be true that the universe would exist. If you don't believe it would be true that the universe would still exist even if all humans were unconscious, then you must believe human consciousness creates the universe. And I thought this is the exact opposite of what the primacy of existence principal states.

For me, I believe its true that the universe would still exist even if all humans became unconscious, simply because I believe truth is infinite and timeless and our human consciousness is not infinite and timeless, there for truth is equal to God and God is truth because God describes himself as infinite and timeless and God existence does not depend on our consciousness.
If I said that, and I don't think I did, then let me correct it now. If consciousness did't exist it would still be a fact that existence existed. I said that I can define truth. Let me do that now.

Truth is the non-contradictory, objective identification of the facts of reality.

The very first fact that we can identify is that existence exists. In the act of grasping that fact, we grasp the fact that we are conscious.
 
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