Perhaps it is Now Time to Leave Iraq

[Scribbler]

As disturbing as it is, the US is responsible for at least a few of the mass graves from 91.' I know because I was there to smell them.

This yours?

 

[Scribbler]

. WE, the soldiers of the US killed them.

How about this?

 

[k]

This yours?

Again, where do I mention massacre? In the post you quoted it is clear I only stated mass graves. This is strange.

Btw, war is always a massacre.

 

[k]

How about this?

And? Really don't see the point here. Let's try this: we were ordered to invade, and in doing so we had to freakin kill people, then those people were shoved into holes in the desert by the equipment and personnel of the US military.

 

[Scribbler]

I never even brought up massacre, the only thing I stated was mass graves. Please read the posts more carefully to avoid these misunderstandings.

Sorry, Neverstop,...I promise to "read your posts more carefully to avoid these misunderstandings".
Funny, right between accusing the US of killing all these people in war, and claiming you Never Said Massacre is a little blurb saying "btw, war is always massacre."

I don't see I was ever disrespectful to vets in my posts. I'm one, all my family were, and my brother is, with possible sevice in Afghanistan looming in his future. YOU said the US was responsible for this killing the people in these "mass graves" you saw, yet you don't name places or dates-how DO you know the US is responsible for those deaths? I don't recall the US invading Iraq in 1991, though we buried our share of Kuwaitis that year.
Finally, no, I never set foot in Iraq, yes, I have fired a weapon at another human being. They retaliated by launching Silkworm missles at us. Uncle Sam saw fit to award us the "Combat Action" ribbon for our service there. I'm sorry if this doesn't exempt me from "heeding the advice of others w/ more experience", but if you have any disrespectful comments concerning my service, I would please ask that you keep them to yourself, my brother.

I am, after all, a Veteran.

 

[Sycophant]

Sorry, Neverstop,...I promise to "read your posts more carefully to avoid these misunderstandings".
Funny, right between accusing the US of killing all these people in war, and claiming you Never Said Massacre is a little blurb saying "btw, war is always massacre."

If it's any help, I never interpreted his comments as an accusation of a US massacre.

 

[jameseb]

My homepage.

http://ericthibodeau.com/intro.htm
http://ericthibodeau.com/uss_missouri.htm

You were on the Mighty Mo in '91?? Farout... I remember watching you guys light up the night sky with those 16-inchers.

Cheers!

 

[k]

Funny, right between accusing the US of killing all these people in war, and claiming you Never Said Massacre is a little blurb saying "btw, war is always massacre."

Try not to take things out of context-notice the "btw" part-there are two types of massacre, I was alluding to the second version meaning in any war thousands to hundreds of thousands of people are murdered, and that is a form of massacre.

I don't see I was ever disrespectful to vets in my posts.

This is what I received as rude and disrespectful, both to the dead and to me. Yes, I am sensitive about this stuff, and working on it.

And did the bodies smell like they were killed by Americans?

from post #55

YOU said the US was responsible for this killing the people in these "mass graves" you saw, yet you don't name places or dates-how DO you know the US is responsible for those deaths?

We were in the desert in Iraq, no, I didn't have a local map with me, and as for the specific dates, couldn't tell you other than it was February. I was a Cobra Crew Chief, 4th Squadron, 3rd ACR.

How do I know? We engaged military camps and an airstrip. I was one of the soldiers that was there, and those Iraqis were alive before we bombed and shot the hell out of them. Me being there and a US soldier is how I know the US was/is responsible. I have no idea how I could make that any clearer.

yes, I have fired a weapon at another human being.

My fault for not being more specific, although I suspect you knew exactly what I was talking about. I meant another human you could actually see with your own eyes without the aid of a monitor.

Uncle Sam saw fit to award us the "Combat Action" ribbon for our service there.

That's SOP during any war. We had a guy that was too scared, so he stopped drinking water, became very ill, and was sent back to the states in November. He had on a combat patch when we returned in late March, and he never even fired a weapon. I was not in any way demeaning your role, but pointing out there are different roles that come with different experiences. I have no idea what it's like to be on a ship, and wouldn't pretend to, just as you have no idea what it's like to be in close combat.

but if you have any disrespectful comments concerning my service,

If you'll recall, I already thanked you for your service. Was that reciprocated? I was not disrespectful, only pointing out differences.

 

[praying]

Try not to take things out of context-notice the "btw" part-there are two types of massacre, I was alluding to the second version meaning in any war thousands to hundreds of thousands of people are murdered, and that is a form of massacre.

I think I might have to disagree with that, a massacre is a single instance of mass killing. It isn't the sum of deaths in a war, unless of course said war occurs in a single event. i.e. Little Big Horn.

 

[k]

I think I might have to disagree with that, a massacre is a single instance of mass killing. It isn't the sum of deaths in a war, unless of course said war occurs in a single event. i.e. Little Big Horn.

I think any time a large number of people die it is a massacre. It's just the way I see things, and surely it's a result of experiences. The tsunami is a massacre, just because humans did not cause it that doesn't change end results. With all the fighting in Iraq right now, what criteria would be used to determine a "massacre?" Not trying to be facetious, but when a group of people are murdered by bombs, even if it's 10 people, I see that as a massacre. When an airstrike is called, the pilots (of either planes or choppers) cannot control what damage the bomb creates, and innocent people often die. Their crime being nothing more than being too close. There are several terms used to assuage the reality of those deaths, but I cannot subscribe to those terms.

 

[Scribbler]

That's SOP during any war. We had a guy that was too scared, so he stopped drinking water, became very ill, and was sent back to the states in November. He had on a combat patch when we returned in late March, and he never even fired a weapon. I was not in any way demeaning your role, but pointing out there are different roles that come with different experiences. I have no idea what it's like to be on a ship, and wouldn't pretend to, just as you have no idea what it's like to be in close combat.

If you'll recall, I already thanked you for your service. Was that reciprocated? I was not disrespectful, only pointing out differences.

-No, it is not SOP during any war. To earn a Combat Action Ribbon, you actually have to have been fired upon. This is why we recieved the riboon, while other ships in our battle group did not. I direct you to the following link.
http://www.cursor.org/venturawatch/combat_action_ribbon.htm Paragraph (2).

-Telling me "unless I actually see my enemy face to face, I should learn to heed the advice of those who have" demeans and belittles my service and the service of all Navy personnel. What arrogance. Would this apply to the men of Pearl Harbor? The Indianapolis?

 

[Scribbler]

We were in the desert in Iraq, no, I didn't have a local map with me, and as for the specific dates, couldn't tell you other than it was February. I was a Cobra Crew Chief, 4th Squadron, 3rd ACR.

How do I know? We engaged military camps and an airstrip. I was one of the soldiers that was there, and those Iraqis were alive before we bombed and shot the hell out of them. Me being there and a US soldier is how I know the US was/is responsible. I have no idea how I could make that any clearer.
.

Nope, it's clear enough, now.

 

[k]

-No, it is not SOP during any war. To earn a Combat Action Ribbon, you actually have to have been fired upon. This is why we recieved the riboon, while other ships in our battle group did not. I direct you to the following link.
http://www.cursor.org/venturawatch/combat_action_ribbon.htm Paragraph (2).

-Telling me "unless I actually see my enemy face to face, I should learn to heed the advice of those who have" demeans and belittles my service and the service of all Navy personnel. What arrogance. Would this apply to the men of Pearl Harbor? The Indianapolis?

My mistake on the CAR, I was thinking of something else, so please forgive me.

No, it does not demean your service, as previously stated. It is a different type of experience is it not? (rhetorical question) It's strange, I've had this same conversation with my friends who served in the Navy, and they had a totally different response.

If you are going to quote me, then please make sure it is an accurate quote, it helps avoid a lot of misunderstanding. Here is what I actually said:

then advice is offered to heed to the experiences of those who have.

That was said in direct reference to the mass graves, meaning istead of letting the disease of Nationalism prevent people from learning something new, try and respect where other people have been and what they have seen.

You keep trying to spin my words to make it sound like I have disrespected you or the Navy. It is tiresome and pointless. You asked for where you did disrespect me, I proved it, and you ignored it. At least when I make a mistake I am able to admit and ask for forgiveness.

 

[Scribbler]

You keep trying to spin my words to make it sound like I have disrespected you or the Navy. It is tiresome and pointless. You asked for where you did disrespect me, I proved it, and you ignored it. At least when I make a mistake I am able to admit and ask for forgiveness.

If I have disrespected you, I apologize. I was curious as to where this incident with the mass graves you mentioned occured, and no information was provided on it, other than the US being responsible, and of course it's aroma.

No, I never did thank you for your service, and didn't realize you were awaiting such. So, thank you.

While burying dead enemy combatants in mass graves may be direspectful, pehaps the US had no other option. Maybe we didn't have time to bury them before decompostion set in, perhaps there weren't enough Iraqis to do the job. Who knows? This is certainly not indicative of our nature. Just last year the Navy & USMC have been helping dig up & identify the 300,000-500,000 that Saddam put in them. http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=9927

 

[k]

The Bush admin needs as much dirt on Saddam as possible, and IMO that is why the Navy was ordered to do what they have been doing.

 

[Scribbler]

The Bush admin needs as much dirt on Saddam as possible, and IMO that is why the Navy was ordered to do what they have been doing.

Ah.

 

[k]

Look, just because people speak out against government decisions, that is not the same as speaking out against troops. The politicians have done a marvelous job at putting people at each other's throats using certain tactics.

Iraq is only going to get worse, and the "elections" (what a sick joke to call it that) are only going to make things worse for everyone. I have absolutely no idea what should/could be done about Iraq, but I do know we should have never gone.

 

[Borealis]

Look, just because people speak out against government decisions, that is not the same as speaking out against troops. The politicians have done a marvelous job at putting people at each other's throats using certain tactics.

I have lost count of the number of times I've heard Democrat politicians speaking out against the troops, while couching it in 'oh, we support you, just not what you're doing' terms. Every single one of the Senators and House Reps who has waved the 'Abu Ghraib' flag in front of a camera is speaking out against the troops, because they are making a very strong implication that it is the US Army that is at fault, not a small group of soldiers.

Iraq is only going to get worse, and the "elections" (what a sick joke to call it that) are only going to make things worse for everyone. I have absolutely no idea what should/could be done about Iraq, but I do know we should have never gone.

This is just too funny. Liberals are the most pessimistic people alive, unless whatever is going on that is good was their idea.

Iraq is only going to get worse? It CAN'T get worse than it was before America went in, and considering that the insurgents are PUBLICLY COMPLAINING that the local imams aren't supporting them, I'd say that things are only going to get better.

And putting scare quotes around 'elections' shows what sort of contempt the liberals have for what's happening in the Middle East. We are witnessing a fantastic change, a fundamental shift in the mentality that has pervaded the Middle East for TWELVE CENTURIES. WOMEN were permitted to vote in Afghanistan. The Taliban oppressed them beyond our Western comprehension and they came out in DROVES to vote.

The left is a broken record today about this; they are saying the EXACT same things they said about the Afghan elections, despite having been proven wrong, as usual, the first time around.

Do you think that if you cry wolf enough times, a wolf will actually show up? Because there's this really big army that's keeping watch against the wolfpacks.

 

[Scribbler]

Look, just because people speak out against government decisions, that is not the same as speaking out against troops.

Who said it was?

Iraq is only going to get worse, and the "elections" (what a sick joke to call it that) are only going to make things worse for everyone. .

No, Saddam getting re-elected with 100% of the vote (up from 99.75% in the 98 elections) more aptly fits the mantle of "sick joke".
The correct term for this election woud be "democracy". Messy, bloody, maybe not 100% without scandal, but democracy.
Pray that these people will be allowed the freedom we are granted, by our creator. Pray that this new openness would allow His word to be spread. This is what we should focus our energy on.

 

[k]

they are making a very strong implication that it is the US Army that is at fault, not a small group of soldiers.

It is not the Army who is at fault, but those who have the power to command that army.

This is just too funny. Liberals are the most pessimistic people alive, unless whatever is going on that is good was their idea.

I am not a Liberal, I am a Christian, period. I don't ascribe to any politics.

Iraq is only going to get worse? It CAN'T get worse than it was before America went in, and considering that the insurgents are PUBLICLY COMPLAINING that the local imams aren't supporting them, I'd say that things are only going to get better.

It IS worse than before the US went in. I don't need to say anything more than that because as events unfold that point will be proven.

It's funny the term "insurgent" is repeated here directly from the media. The fact that term is regurgitated from the media reveals lack of comprehension on the whole mess in Iraq. An insurgent is someone who is against a government or civil authority and the US presence is a military occupation. The people fighting against the US are patriots of their own country because they see and understand what supporters of the US don't.

The Taliban oppressed them beyond our Western comprehension and they came out in DROVES to vote.

It's awesome that women could vote. However, we are living in the New World Disorder and unless people study and comprehend Imperialism they will never understand the concept of 'more choices, but less freedom.'

And putting scare quotes around 'elections' shows what sort of contempt the liberals have for what's happening in the Middle East.

Have you read the manifesto by the PNAC? If not don't waste time trying to be insightful about Iraq.