People before Christ from the Old Testament, are they saved?

[BobRyan]

Do you know when the Old Covenant of the Law started with Israel? Do you think it started when God gave the 10 commandments to Moses?

As the "Baptist Confession of Faith" sectn 18, and "the Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 and the Dies Domini, and the Catholic Catechism, and R.C Sproul, and C.H. Spurgeon and D.L. Moody and as Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations admit - the Ten Commandments were given to mankind in Eden and this is why Christ can say in Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind".

 

[Guojing]

As the "Baptist Confession of Faith" sectn 18, and "the Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 and the Dies Domini, and the Catholic Catechism, and R.C Sproul, and C.H. Spurgeon and D.L. Moody and as Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations admit - the Ten Commandments were given to mankind in Eden and this is why Christ can say in Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind".

Are you saying you believe the Old Covenant of the Law was given to Adam and Eve in Eden?

 

[BobRyan]

This Galatians verse is widely misapplied.

Galatians 1:8-9

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul is actually saying if the gentiles are preached another gospel other than the one what they are receiving from Paul, let the preacher be accused.

Can you see you are misinterpreting it to mean "Paul also said if anyone preach any other Gospel, let him be accursed"?

Paul never claimed to be preaching "A different gospel than Christ" or "a different Gospel than Peter".

Jesus said in Matt 24 "THIS Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world and then shall the end come" -- no one in the NT claims their preaching is not the Gospel of Christ. So it appears you are arguing for a distinction without a difference in that post - unless I am missing something.

 

[BobRyan]

Are you saying you believe the Old Covenant of the Law was given to Adam and Eve in Eden?

In Eden they had "obey and live" which means it was a sin in Eden to murder or take God's name in vain etc. As all the Bible scholars in the various Christian denominations I gave examples of - have also admitted.

What is more - as Gal 3 and as Rom 3:19-20 point out - failure to perfectly obey under that covenant of works - would mean lake of fire - death.

Gal 3 example of old covenant - covenant of law

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)​

 

[Guojing]

In Eden they had "obey and live" which means it was a sin in Eden to murder or take God's name in vain etc. As all the Bible scholars in the various Christian denominations I gave examples of - have also admitted.

What is more - as Gal 3 and as Rom 3:19-20 point out - failure to perfectly obey under that covenant of works - would mean lake of fire - death.

Gal 3 example of old covenant - covenant of law

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)

Israel did not exist in Adam and Eve time, so you are not answering my question to him.

You are actually telling me more and more, that you subscribed to covenant theology, since in their minds, they only understand 2-3 covenants, the covenant of works, which was given to Adam, and the covenant of grace which began in Genesis 3:15.

Would you confirm that?

 

[BobRyan]

Israel did not exist in Adam and Eve time, so you are not answering my question to him.

You are actually telling me more and more, that you subscribed to covenant theology, since in their minds, they only understand 2-3 covenants, the covenant of works, which was given to Adam, and the covenant of grace which began in Genesis 3:15.

Would you confirm that?

I hold to a form of it -- I would certainly be happy to refer to a Covenant of Works as old covenant (covenant with Adam and Even and is also the default covenant for all of mankind not under the Gospel) - vs a Covenant of Grace that is the Gospel.

In Gen for "SIN is crouching at your door - but you must master it" - removes all doubt about sin existing before Sinai

But I do not agree with all their various descriptions of how the Covenant of Grace works. I believe in Free will and so Romans 10:9-10 is pretty important to me. I also think the warnings in the Bible about "forgiveness revoked" as we find in Matt 18 at the end of the chapter and in Romans 11 - are to be taken as serious - real issues to be dealt with.

 

[Guojing]

I hold to a form of it -- I would certainly be happy to refer to a Covenant of Works as old covenant (covenant with Adam and Even and is also the default covenant for all of mankind not under the Gospel) - vs a Covenant of Grace that is the Gospel.

But I do not agree with all their various descriptions of how the Covenant of Grace works. I believe in Free will and so Romans 10:9-10 is pretty important to me. I also think the warnings in the Bible about "forgiveness revoked" as we find in Matt 18 at the end of the chapter and in Romans 11 - are to be taken as serious - real issues to be dealt with.

I see, then I can understand why you share their view of there is only one gospel, that the OT saints looked forward to the cross, while we look back.

That is probably the most popular doctrine Christians have about salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

I see, then I can understand why you share their view of there is only one gospel, that the OT saints looked forward to the cross, while we look back.

That is probably the most popular doctrine Christians have about salvation.

indeed.

1 Cor 10:
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud and they all passed through the sea; 2 and they all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and they all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Which is why that Heb 4:1-2 statement reads as it does.

Gen 6
5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. 6 So the Lord was sorry that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 Then the Lord said, “I will wipe out mankind whom I have created from the face of the land; mankind, and animals as well, and crawling things, and the birds of the sky. For I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

God charged the pre-flood world with sin - and wiped them out.

=====================

sin and murder, crime and punishment concepts before the flood

Gen 4:
6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why is your face gloomy? 7 If you do well, will your face not be cheerful? And if you do not do well, sin is lurking at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.” 8 Cain talked to his brother Abel; and it happened that when they were in the field Cain rose up against his brother Abel and killed him.

9 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?” And he said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?” 10 Then He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying out to Me from the ground. 11 Now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you cultivate the ground, it will no longer yield its strength to you; you will be a wanderer and a drifter on the earth.” 13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is too great to endure! 14 Behold, You have driven me this day from the face of the ground; and I will be hidden from Your face, and I will be a wanderer and a drifter on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” 15 So the Lord said to him, “Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him seven times as much.” And the Lord placed a mark on Cain, so that no one finding him would kill him.

===============

Knowledge of the Lev 11 clean-vs-unclean animal distinction known before the flood

Gen 7:
2 You shall take with you seven pairs of every clean animal, a male and his female; and two of the animals that are not clean, a male and his female; 3 also of the birds of the sky, seven pairs, male and female, to keep their offspring alive on the face of all the earth.

7 Then Noah and his sons, his wife, and his sons’ wives with him entered the ark because of the waters of the flood. 8 Of clean animals and animals that are not clean and birds and everything that crawls on the ground, 9 they all went into the ark to Noah by twos, male and female, as God had commanded Noah.

Gen 8:
20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took some of every kind of clean animal and some of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 The Lord smelled the soothing aroma, and the Lord said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.

 

[chad kincham]

Do you know when the Old Covenant of the Law started with Israel? Do you think it started when God gave the 10 commandments to Moses?

The old covenant always refers to the first covenant God gave to Israel, it’s not referencing the Abrahamic or Noahic. Covenants, but what is called mosaic law, aka the law of Moses, given to Moses on Sinai 430 years after Abraham.

 

[Guojing]

The old covenant always refers to the first covenant God gave to Israel, it’s not referencing the Abrahamic or Noahic. Covenants, but what is called mosaic law, aka the law of Moses, given to Moses on Sinai 430 years after Abraham.

It actually began at Exodus 24.

The nation of Israel have to accept the conditions of the Old Covenant first, before it can begin Exodus 24:3

Likewise, the New Covenant did not begin at the cross.

Israel never accepted Christ as their promised Messiah, they rejected him John 19:15

Thus the New Covenant will only begin for Israel when, as a nation, they declared Matthew 23:39, that is the condition for the New Covenant.

That will happen at the end of the Tribulation, which is a future event (Acts 3:19-21, Hebrews 8:8-12)

 

[chad kincham]

Likewise, the New Covenant did not begin at the cross.

Hebrews 9 disagrees with you:

Hebrews 9 states that the new covenant Jesus mediates is His last will and Testament, that took effect at His death, as all last will and Testaments do:


Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.

Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.


Notice that “the called”;obtain the promised inheritance from the last will and Testament that took effect at His death, verse 9:15


God always has a law, and the new covenant is a legal document that gives the called an inheritance - as in inheriting eternal life, and it absolutely took effect at His death.

And Hebrews quotes Jeremiah 31, to show which new covenant Jesus is the mediator of - the new covenant with the House of Israel and House of Judah.

Maranatha

 

[Guojing]

Hebrews 9 disagrees with you:

Hebrews 9 states that the new covenant Jesus mediates is His last will and Testament, that took effect at His death, as all last will and Testaments do:


Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.

Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.


Notice that “the called”;obtain the promised inheritance from the last will and Testament that took effect at His death, verse 9:15


God always has a law, and the new covenant is a legal document that gives the called an inheritance - as in inheriting eternal life, and it absolutely took effect at His death.

And Hebrews quotes Jeremiah 31, to show which new covenant Jesus is the mediator of - the new covenant with the House of Israel and House of Judah.

Maranatha

Both Hebrews 8:8 and Jer 31:31 all used the future tense "I will make".

Hebrews was written after the cross, and the author still view the New Covenant as a future event.

I trust you understand what future tense means?

Christ's death on the cross means the New Covenant is ready for Israel to accept, and if they accept, the Old Covenant will vanish (Hebrews 8:13).

Maybe you should address whether you think the Old Covenant began at Exodus 24, or when Moses receive the 10 commandments.

If you still insist on the latter, despite now knowing what Exodus 24 stated, I can understand better why you won't change your mind here, regarding the timing of the New Covenant.

 

[Trivalee]

People who died before the resurection, how will they be saved?

The Jews in the OT will be judged by their obedience to the law. Paul's narrative in Romans chapter 2 answers the question of God's eternal judgment for those that died without the Gospel in the NT.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Those that died (whether in sin or righteousness) without the law, e.g. those that died before the law was given - of Israel and the rest of the world will be judged according to how they responded to the Spirit of God expressed through their conscience.

It is this inherent spirit that enables a man to know right and wrong without the benefit of either the law or the Gospel. This is how Paul described it.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

The above is unambiguous and gives insight into how God will judge everyone from Adam to the time Israel became a nation. And everyone else from Europe to Africa, Asia, North America, etc. that died before the NT. It also includes those that died in the NT age but without hearing the Gospel.

Every man who lived on earth was created by God and will be judged according to how they followed their conscience. I hope this helps.

 

[chad kincham]

Do you know when the Old Covenant of the Law started with Israel? Do you think it started when God gave the 10 commandments to Moses?

Paul wrote that the law was given 430 years after Abraham - proving when it was given.

 

[chad kincham]

Both Hebrews 8:8 and Jer 31:31 all used the future tense "I will make".

Hebrews was written after the cross, and the author still view the New Covenant as a future event.

I trust you understand what future tense means?

Christ's death on the cross means the New Covenant is ready for Israel to accept, and if they accept, the Old Covenant will vanish (Hebrews 8:13).

Maybe you should address whether you think the Old Covenant began at Exodus 24, or when Moses receive the 10 commandments.

If you still insist on the latter, despite now knowing what Exodus 24 stated, I can understand better why you won't change your mind here, regarding the timing of the New Covenant.

Hebrews 8, 9, and 10 are irrefutable that the Jeremiah 31 new covenant is being mediated by Jesus and it took effect when he died.

Hebrews 8 states Jesus is mediating, not will mediate, the new covenant, and in verses 8-10 it shows that covenant is the Jeremiah 31 new covenant with the House of Israel:


Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

Heb 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
(Quotes Jeremiah 31, and the prophesy that a new covenant was coming)

Heb 8:9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Hebrews 9 states that the new covenant Jesus mediates is His last will and Testament, that took effect at His death, as all last will and Testaments do:


Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
(Is the mediator, not will be, and who’s death has occurred? Jesus’ death)

Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.

Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.


Notice that the called obtain the promised inheritance from the last will and Testament that took effect at His death, verse 9:15


God always has a law, and the new covenant is a legal document that gives the called an inheritance - as in inheriting eternal life.


Hebrews 10 confirms that the once for all time sacrificial offering of Himself established the Jeremiah 31 new covenant where God puts His laws in the hearts and minds of those being sanctified:


Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Heb 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

Heb 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”

Heb 10:17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

Heb 10:18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.


Currently per Romans 11 only a remnant of the elect nation of Israel believes in Jesus and is in their own new covenant God has made with the House of Israel and thus have Gods indwelling Holy Spirit within them, which is how Gods laws are written in their hearts, and the rest are blinded until the deliverer comes out of Zion.


Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,


Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;


Gentiles as wild Olive branches are grafted onto the Olive tree of Israel, amid the natural branches, and thus by faith gentiles enter into the new covenant with the House of Israel.


Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

 

[Guojing]

Hebrews 8, 9, and 10 are irrefutable that the Jeremiah 31 new covenant is being mediated by Jesus and it took effect when he died.

Hebrews 8 states Jesus is mediating, not will mediate, the new covenant, and in verses 8-10 it shows that covenant is the Jeremiah 31 new covenant with the House of Israel:


Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

Heb 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
(Quotes Jeremiah 31, and the prophesy that a new covenant was coming)

Heb 8:9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Hebrews 9 states that the new covenant Jesus mediates is His last will and Testament, that took effect at His death, as all last will and Testaments do:


Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
(Is the mediator, not will be, and who’s death has occurred? Jesus’ death)

Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.

Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.


Notice that the called obtain the promised inheritance from the last will and Testament that took effect at His death, verse 9:15


God always has a law, and the new covenant is a legal document that gives the called an inheritance - as in inheriting eternal life.


Hebrews 10 confirms that the once for all time sacrificial offering of Himself established the Jeremiah 31 new covenant where God puts His laws in the hearts and minds of those being sanctified:


Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Heb 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

Heb 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”

Heb 10:17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

Heb 10:18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.


Currently per Romans 11 only a remnant of the elect nation of Israel believes in Jesus and is in their own new covenant God has made with the House of Israel and thus have Gods indwelling Holy Spirit within them, which is how Gods laws are written in their hearts, and the rest are blinded until the deliverer comes out of Zion.


Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,


Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;


Gentiles as wild Olive branches are grafted onto the Olive tree of Israel, amid the natural branches, and thus by faith gentiles enter into the new covenant with the House of Israel.


Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

Maybe you should address whether you think the Old Covenant began at Exodus 24, or when Moses receive the 10 commandments.

If you still insist on the latter, despite now knowing what Exodus 24 stated, I can understand better why you won't change your mind here, regarding the timing of the New Covenant.

 

[Guojing]

Paul wrote that the law was given 430 years after Abraham - proving when it was given.

The 10 commandments were given to Moses at Mount Sinai, that no one is denying.

But are you trying to claim here that Israel accepted the Old Covenant also at Mount Sinai, or at Exodus 24?

I think, in your view, covenants can be made unilaterally.

That is why you believe that, even though the House of Israel has not accepted Jesus as their Messiah, even though Hebrews 8:8 denote the new covenant as a future tense, you still want to insist that it has already begun for them.

 

[chad kincham]

When Jesus returns for Israel in his 2nd coming, then you will receive your salvation (Acts 3:19-21).

The redemption of the physical body is future. Salvation of the soul is immediate upon belief and repentance.

 

[Guojing]

The redemption of the physical body is future. Salvation of the soul is immediate upon belief and repentance.

Did you actually read what Acts 3:19-21 says in the KJV?

And when you read 1 Peter 1:9, you will understand better what Peter was saying in Acts 3.