Pentecostalism

[Texan40]

I have never been able to understand why certain fruits of the Spirit seem to take precedence over others? If I am blessed by the Spirit with patience, peace, and love for my fellow man how can this be less of a miracle than speaking in tongues? In this I have always been baffled by charismatics with a taste for sensory miracles.

 

[MrJim]

I listen to Swaggart sometimes on SonLife Radio~~seems like the biggest thing he preaches against is a lot of Pentecostalism fringe stuff like Oneness & Government of 12 & Health/Wealth preaching.

 

[Skala]

I feel the same way Tex:

It seems to me,and this is my opinion of course, that many of these people are highly interested in "miracles" and just "seeing" the "supernatural". They aren't satisfied with just the gospel message, it seems. It makes me think that if tongues and healings etc were removed from Christianity, would they get bored and move on to something that gives them excitement? Would they be satisfied?

Another thing that bothers me is all this emphasis on the Holy Spirit. The Bible tells us that the HS's job is to glorify Christ and put Christians attention on Christ, not on himself.

So why is the HS supposedly putting so much emphasis on himself among charismatics?

 

[eachallberg]

I listen to Swaggart sometimes on SonLife Radio~~seems like the biggest thing he preaches against is a lot of Pentecostalism fringe stuff like Oneness & Government of 12 & Health/Wealth preaching.

Wow, Thank you Jim this statement is very ironic.
I saw him perform and preach for the first time yesterday, and since then i've been intrigued by the baptism of the Holy Spirit (laying of hands). I don't know much about him but plan on finding out.

Dear GrayAngel,
Thank you for replying, G_d bless you.
>"...after Jesus' death, John's baptism was made insufficient, and was replaced with Jesus' baptism. This is the only baptism we need."

Is there scripture to support this?
Because John 3:5 says different. Notice the 2, water and Spirit.

And one more question for you dear Brother,
Have you had Apostles lay hands on you to receive the Holy Spirit, like in Acts 8:17?

Peace be to all of you.

 

[eachallberg]

...
It seems to me,and this is my opinion of course, that many of these people are highly interested in "miracles" and just "seeing" the "supernatural". They aren't satisfied with just the gospel message, it seems. It makes me think that if tongues and healings etc were removed from Christianity, would they get bored and move on to something that gives them excitement? Would they be satisfied?

Another thing that bothers me is all this emphasis on the Holy Spirit. The Bible tells us that the HS's job is to glorify Christ and put Christians attention on Christ, not on himself.

So why is the HS supposedly putting so much emphasis on himself among charismatics?

Fruit of the Holy Spirit is joy, and they sure do got it.

Speaking in tongues varies, some ramble what ever noise there mouth can conjure.

Others it seems like singing, by holding and changing the sounds vowels make. A-E-I-O-U-Y-W.

It is pointless to speak in tongues around others without a interpreter, and it is also against scripture.

The emphasis that is put on the Holy Spirit comes from John 4:24.

Peace.

 

[OzSpen]

Does anyone know how big the "oneness" movement is in Pentecostalism?

The United Pentecostal Church International website states:

The United Pentecostal Church International (UPCI) has been among the fastest growing church organizations since it was formed in 1945 by the merger of the Pentecostal Church Incorporated and the Pentecostal Assemblies of Jesus Christ. From 521 churches in 1945, the UPCI in the United States and Canada grew to 4,243 churches and daughter works and 9,163 ministers in 2010. In the same year it reported works in 190 nations outside the U.S. and Canada with 17,879 licensed ministers, 30,307 churches and preaching points, 748 missionaries, and a constituency of over 2 million. The international fellowship consists of national organizations that are united as the Global Council of the UPCI, which is chaired by the general superintendent of the UPCI. Total constituency is estimated at 3 million.
​

This article from Wikipedia on “Pentecostalism” states:

In 1998, there were about 11,000 different Pentecostal or charismatic denominations worldwide.[citation needed] The largest Pentecostal denomination in the world, the Assemblies of God, claims approximately 57 million adherents worldwide.[105] It has a significant presence in many countries including Cuba, Egypt, India, Indonesia and Nigeria.[106] The Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee) has a membership of over 6 million,[107] the Church of God in Christ has a membership of 5.5 million,[2] the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel has 5 million members, the United Pentecostal Church International has a membership of over 4 million,[108] and the International Pentecostal Holiness Church has over 3 million members.[109]

This article on Pentecostalism from BBC News in 2009 stated:

During the last three decades of the twentieth century Pentecostalism grew very strongly and there are now over 250 million Pentecostals around the world, who make up more than 10% of all Christians. (Some writers suggest the number is more like 500 million.)

See footnote 4 HERE for an estimate of 500 million Pentecostals worldwide.

So if the United Pentecostal International Church has 3 million people and there are 250 million Pentecostals worldwide, this means that United Pentecostals (the largest oneness denomination) represent 1.2% of the Pentecostal international membership/attendance. However, there are other oneness Pentecostal denominations. This article lists some of the oneness Pentecostal denominations.

I did find a couple of articles of those who have come out of oneness Pentecostal denominations and are now orthodox in their view of God.

Sincerely, Oz

 

[GrayAngel]

Dear GrayAngel,
Thank you for replying, G_d bless you.
>"...after Jesus' death, John's baptism was made insufficient, and was replaced with Jesus' baptism. This is the only baptism we need."

Is there scripture to support this?
Because John 3:5 says different. Notice the 2, water and Spirit.

And one more question for you dear Brother,
Have you had Apostles lay hands on you to receive the Holy Spirit, like in Acts 8:17?

Peace be to all of you.

John 3:5-8 - Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Jesus wasn't trying to imply that we needed two baptisms. Jesus' baptism has both elements: water and spirit. The physical act of baptism is being submerged in water. But spiritually, it's the act of baptism that invites the Holy Spirit to come in, bringing spiritual rebirth.

The laying on of hands was another ritual. But to say that we need to submit to a certain formula of rituals in order to receive the Holy Spirit is almost like we're claiming to have power over God. If we do this, then God will have to do this. Baptism and the laying on of hands are simple acts of obedience: they don't make anything happen. God makes things happen.

I think the laying on of hands is something good for believers to do, but I wouldn't say it is needed.

But notice, when Paul came to these believers and saw that they had lacked the Holy Spirit, He didn't baptize them a second time in John's baptism. The first one was enough. All they did was lay hands on them, and invite the Holy Spirit to come on them. I'd think if two baptisms were required, then he would have baptized them a second time.

 

[His_disciple3]

I have never been able to understand why certain fruits of the Spirit seem to take precedence over others? If I am blessed by the Spirit with patience, peace, and love for my fellow man how can this be less of a miracle than speaking in tongues? In this I have always been baffled by charismatics with a taste for sensory miracles.

I don't mean this in a bad way but you are confused about gifts of the Spirit and fruits of the Spirit. but this does show exactly how the spiritual gifts as tongues, healings and prophecy are misunderstood among, people who don't know a thing about them.

here are the gifts
1 Corinthians 12:6-11
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
KJV

and here are the fruits


Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
KJV

hope this has helped!!

 

[dies-l]

I don't mean this in a bad way but you are confused about gifts of the Spirit and fruits of the Spirit. but this does show exactly how the spiritual gifts as tongues, healings and prophecy are misunderstood among, people who don't know a thing about them.

here are the gifts
1 Corinthians 12:6-11
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
KJV

and here are the fruits


Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
KJV

hope this has helped!!

Not to be contentious, but I don't think that the other poster is all that far off. Paul refers to faith, hope, and love and "the greater gifts". The fruit of the Spirit is essentially a reflection of the biblical picture of love. Thus, I think it is fair to say that the "fruit of the Spirit" and the "gifts of the Spirit" are not two distinct ideas, but rather they refer to the ways in which the Spirit manifests itself in those are are indwelt with the Spirit. The one distinction that can be made is that the "gifts of the Spirit" referred to in 1 Cot 12 are not something that we should necessarily expect from every Spirit filled believer. Rather, each individual is given his own gifts to work together with the gifts of other believers. The greater gifts (also referred to as "fruit") is something that we should expect to see in increasing amounts in each person who is a believer, and we should be leery of any professing believer who is not growing in the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[His_disciple3]

Not to be contentious, but I don't think that the other poster is all that far off. Paul refers to faith, hope, and love and "the greater gifts". The fruit of the Spirit is essentially a reflection of the biblical picture of love. Thus, I think it is fair to say that the "fruit of the Spirit" and the "gifts of the Spirit" are not two distinct ideas, but rather they refer to the ways in which the Spirit manifests itself in those are are indwelt with the Spirit. The one distinction that can be made is that the "gifts of the Spirit" referred to in 1 Cot 12 are not something that we should necessarily expect from every Spirit filled believer. Rather, each individual is given his own gifts to work together with the gifts of other believers. The greater gifts (also referred to as "fruit") is something that we should expect to see in increasing amounts in each person who is a believer, and we should be leery of any professing believer who is not growing in the fruit of the Spirit.

well I just gave you scriptures from The Holy Word of God which showed what the gifts were and what the fruits were so go argue with scriptures, I think that there should be no schism in the Body, it's not about preaching the Gospel anymore it about proving that we are more lined up to scriptures than any other denominations. it's about tearing others down cause we don't see it that way. the Gifts were for edifying the body/Church, many say we don't need the gifts no more, then why are so many leaving a church service either in worse shape . are the same than when they came in, it is not about filling a Church so we can puff up and say wow we 400 this sunday, how many of those 400 did the Church help, See you won't believe this because your faith won't let you , but God has spoken to me through other's dream and a dream of my own where He show me that a lady left a church service drained and empty, and God said that we have filled the Church with people. but the Church has not filled the people. and I am not talking about filling with the spiritual gifts that is God's place, but how about filling them with our fruit we are producing, well thats hard to do cause they didn't come looking for some puffed up religion, thinking they are bettewr than any other, they came looking for love joy, and some peace. let me say this the Pentecostal churches that I have been involved with, pray more for the denominations than the Baptist churches that I have attended do, and I attend a Spirit filled Baptist Church now that believe in the Holy spirit Baptism and the Gifts, and I have been there for about 6 months now never heard a ill word spoken of another denominations , and this is the first time i can ever say that about anyother baptist church that I have attended

 

[Eric Hilbert]

i dont know much about pentecostalism, and would like to know how baptists view it.

basically, why are baptists not pentecostals? what makes these 2 denominations different?

The three main reasons I'm not a Pentecostal are that (a) I believe in the Biblical teaching of cessationism, (b) I disagree with their emphasis on works as a part of salvation, (c) many of them are either Oneness or accept Oneness into their ranks.

 

[Hog Red]

this is an easy one. having been in the A/G church for roughly 30 years and So. Baptist for 20 i can tell you that everyone in the Baptist church has the gift of administration. my opinion is both denoms are wrong on some things but i dont let it effect my relationship with the Lord.

 

[Deba]

I was So Baptist for 10 years before I became pentecostal. I believe that the strong Bible teaching I received during my time with the Baptists, helped me to learn a deeper walk with the Holy Spirit and embrace (quite tentatively and prayerfully, I might add) the teaching of the Assembly of God.

Other than Calvinism vs Arminianism, and the second baptism by the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues, I found no other differences in their core beliefs.

 

[Galvanized]

The reason why so many find it difficult to believe in the supernatural side of Christianity is our Western mind set which has been corrupted by the pagan philospher Plato in the third century, whose teaching caused many Christians to put the supernatural on the back burner in favour of rhetoric to win people to Christ. Also in the 9th century a teaching emerged that sickness is a cross Christians must bear as part of their suffering. This is not taught in Scripture at all. Christian suffering is persecution.

Also, the great enlightenment of the 18th Century put the emphasis on scientific proof as evidence of reality. This put the kybosh on the supernatural once and for all.

So, this is why our experience in Christian things does not include the supernatural, so we interpret the Gospels and Acts on the basis of our experience. Because we have not had personal experience of the supernatural signs and wonders in our churches, we then believe that although they existed in the Book of Acts, they no longer exist today. This is a belief based on experience, or lack of it, rather than what the Scripture teaches.

We believe that God still acts and moves, but not in the way that the Gospels and the Book of Acts describes, because of our Western mindset. If we went to Africa and South America where that mindset does not exist, then we would have quite a different experience, because signs and wonders in the Christian church are the common experience of Christians in those lands.

Also, because African and South American countries still worship pagan gods in many areas, there is a lot of demonic supernatural events (fully documented by reliable authorities), and so to bring these pagans to Christ, the church in those countries have access to the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit. Nothing less will bring them to Christ. Mere man's wisdom has no hope of competing against demonic power in these countries.

Also, in our countries, because the supernatural God of the Bible has been pushed out of our societies and many of our traditional churches, there is a gap left, and because people are hungry for the supernatural, the occult is experiencing a revival. All you have to do is look around you to see how occult practices have mushroomed in the last 20 years. People involved in the occult believe totally in their own version of supernatural signs and wonders, and this was predicted to happen in the last days.

So, without signs and wonders what has the Church got? Just the enticing words of man's wisdom, and we know that Paul the apostle would never have been satisfied with that when he preached the Gospel. In the light of the power of the dark side in the occult today, trying to preach the Gospel with just words is a sign of a powerless, declining church.

Many areas of the Christian church are retreating in defeat before the tide of the demonic and occult that is taking over our society, sadly because Christians are choosing not to believe that Jesus Christ is more powerful than the occult and is able to demonstrate His power by the Holy Spirit through them.

As I said in another post, this is not Pentecostalism or the Charismatic. There are many traiditional churches discovering the miraculous power of God and who are experiencing instant healings and victories over the demonic. It is not that they have become Pentecostal with its accompanying excesses (in some churches), but that they are finally starting to obey the command of Jesus in His Great Commission: "Preach the Gospel, heal the sick, cast out demons."

We need to change our mindset and start believing that the signs and wonders can and will happen today. Jesus is still able and willing to heal the sick instantly, as He was in the Gospels. When we start believing that, then our experience will change. Jesus has observed us for a long time to see what we have been doing, now He wants to show us what He can do, if we will let Him.

The scriptures require that we test the spirits, to see if they are true or false. Of those "miracles" in Africa, I see a great many charlatans abusing the poor of Africa with their false miracles and powers. South America is in the depths of darkness as "liberation theology" and other unholy things serve a growing Red Menace. It is one thing to point to alleged miracles in Africa or South America, but can you or any Pentecostal alive actually demonstrate it to us, here and now? Surely if you are able to prophecy, we can know if a prophecy is true or false. It isn't a matter of us requiring "scientific evidence" and dismissing the supernatural; it is a matter of us having no evidence whatsoever beyond the ramblings of money grubbing prophets and babbling do-nothings.

A quick survey of all the grand "Ministers", such as Bentley, Benny Hinn, or the aptly named "Creflo DOLLAR", would demonstrate that their spiritual hokus pokus has more to do with the material world than it does the heavenly.

You yourself remarked as to the existence of evil powers. What if, perhaps, the most evil of powers are used by the ones who claim to be Christian? Using their so called "gifts", what if they lure people with nice sounding arguments and empty manifestations and, at a later date, crush them utterly or lead them like ineffectual fools for the rest of their lives?

For this reason we are called to test the spirits. I have never met one Pentecostal spirit who could back up their high and mighty claims. If there was but one prophecy, one vision, one thing that had some element of truth, I would be very happy to see it. The fruit, unfortunately, ripen into things that poison true faith. It causes people to think that they are more than what they are, possessing secret knowledge they don't really have, and performing false miracles that do more to send people away than to actually bring them in. They speak in babbling tongues, which are different for every individual, and they prophecy shallow things that mean nothing, like a horoscope, and never come true if speaking of some future event.

Do you have any prophecy for us to judge? Any vision? Maybe a recording of a tongue speaking session wherein we might ask God for the gift of "interpretation" and see what He tells us? I'm afraid, it does not exist, and that is my warning to those who may be interested in these sorts of things. Dive into it if you wish, but don't lose your mind in it. The Holy Scripture is complete and needs nothing added to it.

 

[stelow]

The scriptures require that we test the spirits, to see if they are true or false. Of those "miracles" in Africa, I see a great many charlatans abusing the poor of Africa with their false miracles and powers. South America is in the depths of darkness as "liberation theology" and other unholy things serve a growing Red Menace. It is one thing to point to alleged miracles in Africa or South America, but can you or any Pentecostal alive actually demonstrate it to us, here and now? Surely if you are able to prophecy, we can know if a prophecy is true or false. It isn't a matter of us requiring "scientific evidence" and dismissing the supernatural; it is a matter of us having no evidence whatsoever beyond the ramblings of money grubbing prophets and babbling do-nothings.

A quick survey of all the grand "Ministers", such as Bentley, Benny Hinn, or the aptly named "Creflo DOLLAR", would demonstrate that their spiritual hokus pokus has more to do with the material world than it does the heavenly.

You yourself remarked as to the existence of evil powers. What if, perhaps, the most evil of powers are used by the ones who claim to be Christian? Using their so called "gifts", what if they lure people with nice sounding arguments and empty manifestations and, at a later date, crush them utterly or lead them like ineffectual fools for the rest of their lives?

For this reason we are called to test the spirits. I have never met one Pentecostal spirit who could back up their high and mighty claims. If there was but one prophecy, one vision, one thing that had some element of truth, I would be very happy to see it. The fruit, unfortunately, ripen into things that poison true faith. It causes people to think that they are more than what they are, possessing secret knowledge they don't really have, and performing false miracles that do more to send people away than to actually bring them in. They speak in babbling tongues, which are different for every individual, and they prophecy shallow things that mean nothing, like a horoscope, and never come true if speaking of some future event.

Do you have any prophecy for us to judge? Any vision? Maybe a recording of a tongue speaking session wherein we might ask God for the gift of "interpretation" and see what He tells us? I'm afraid, it does not exist, and that is my warning to those who may be interested in these sorts of things. Dive into it if you wish, but don't lose your mind in it. The Holy Scripture is complete and needs nothing added to it.

 

[stelow]

The Baptist and Christian Forums, Statement of Faith is very clear and must be respected, you're not going to find me, in the Spirit Filled congregation trying to tell them, how they should practice their faith.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The scriptures require that we test the spirits, to see if they are true or false. Of those "miracles" in Africa, I see a great many charlatans abusing the poor of Africa with their false miracles and powers. South America is in the depths of darkness as "liberation theology" and other unholy things serve a growing Red Menace. It is one thing to point to alleged miracles in Africa or South America, but can you or any Pentecostal alive actually demonstrate it to us, here and now? Surely if you are able to prophecy, we can know if a prophecy is true or false. It isn't a matter of us requiring "scientific evidence" and dismissing the supernatural; it is a matter of us having no evidence whatsoever beyond the ramblings of money grubbing prophets and babbling do-nothings.

A quick survey of all the grand "Ministers", such as Bentley, Benny Hinn, or the aptly named "Creflo DOLLAR", would demonstrate that their spiritual hokus pokus has more to do with the material world than it does the heavenly.

You yourself remarked as to the existence of evil powers. What if, perhaps, the most evil of powers are used by the ones who claim to be Christian? Using their so called "gifts", what if they lure people with nice sounding arguments and empty manifestations and, at a later date, crush them utterly or lead them like ineffectual fools for the rest of their lives?

For this reason we are called to test the spirits. I have never met one Pentecostal spirit who could back up their high and mighty claims. If there was but one prophecy, one vision, one thing that had some element of truth, I would be very happy to see it. The fruit, unfortunately, ripen into things that poison true faith. It causes people to think that they are more than what they are, possessing secret knowledge they don't really have, and performing false miracles that do more to send people away than to actually bring them in. They speak in babbling tongues, which are different for every individual, and they prophecy shallow things that mean nothing, like a horoscope, and never come true if speaking of some future event.

Do you have any prophecy for us to judge? Any vision? Maybe a recording of a tongue speaking session wherein we might ask God for the gift of "interpretation" and see what He tells us? I'm afraid, it does not exist, and that is my warning to those who may be interested in these sorts of things. Dive into it if you wish, but don't lose your mind in it. The Holy Scripture is complete and needs nothing added to it.

I can understand your view, because that is your honest experience.

What we need is to put our experiences aside and see what the Scriptures teach us about how the Holy Spirit works in the Church. The Book of Acts is our guide. I believe that if a person shuts him or herself away in a room with just the New Testament, and studied it fully, that person would come out firmly believing that our God is a supernatural God who is willing and able to confirm the preaching of the Gospel with miracles of healing and casting out of demons.

I don't subscribe to people like Benny Hinn and others like him. I fully agree that there are charlatans operating in third world countries, perverting the Gospel and using the signs and wonders ministry to achieve their own power and control ambitions. It happened in the early church and right through all church history. It happens in our own countries.

But I have personal friends who are regularly involved in ministries that work in African countries, and I know that they are honest, God fearing men of God who all they want to do in their ministries is to glorify Jesus Christ. They have seen sick people healed by the power of God, and demons cast out, and as a result many people have come to Christ. We don't hear about these ministries because they don't advertise themselves on TV or anywhere. They don't like showing their righteousness and good works before men. They quietly get on with the job of winning people to Christ in those countries and ours.

Honestly, do you think that any of the Apostles would agree to having a prophecy session or speak in tongues just to justify themselves before men? Prophecy is for the building up of the church, not for "scientific" examination. The proof that a prophecy is of the Holy Spirit is that the members of the congregation are encouraged in Christ and built up in their faith.

Also, recording a tongues session for examination would be a clear breach of Paul's teaching to the Corinthians. Tongues is for private use, unless with interpretation in a church meeting. If a tongues session is recorded away from that context, the evaluation would prove nothing because it would not be genuine tongues because the Holy Spirit would not support having the operation of the gift examined in that way. That is not the purpose of tongues.

Would you like for me to ask you to record one of your private prayer sessions with God for me to evaluate to see if your prayers are genuine? Of course not.

The truth is, that many good religious people saw the actual miracles of Jesus first hand, and did not rejoice in the healings and deliverances, but sought ways to kill Jesus. When Lazarus was raised from the dead, they wanted to kill him too. So, even seeing actual miracles does not mean that people who have a non miraculous mind set will "see the light" and start believing in it.

I wonder what you would think if you encountered a cancer patient who asked you to pray for healing, and you laid hands on them and asked God to heal him, and then discovered that the cancer had completely disappeared? Would you believe that God honoured your prayer with a miraculous healing? Or would you try and explain it away somehow to try and prove that it wasn't a miracle after all.

I have just watched a DVD with 123 testimonies of people who were instantly healed of breast lumps, heart conditions, failing kidneys, anorexia, drug addiction, alcoholism, injured backs, ovarian cysts, all medical conditions diagnosed by doctors and when these people went back to the doctor it was the doctor who confirmed that the condition had disappeared. This is healing of more than just headaches or colds. We are talking about actual diagnosed medical conditions, checked afterward by medical professionals. How would you explain that, other than that these people were touched by the power of God. And, guess what! Many of these people were not Pentecostals or Charismatics.

Also, when you talk of prophecies that mean nothing, how would you explain that many of these people were called out of a fully packed auditorium by name and a description of their condition, and yet the healing evangelist did not know them in the natural. For example, the preacher would say, "There is someone by the name of Doreen here who has a lump in her left breast, and you were diagnosed by the doctor today of having cancer." So, Doreen stands up and is prayed for and instantly healed. The preacher has never met her before and did not know of her existence before that moment. Now, how would you explain that? Would you call that a false miracle?

So were these people lying, or were these healings a demonstration of the ability and willingness of God to heal today?

 

[OzSpen]

The Baptist and Christian Forums, Statement of Faith is very clear and must be respected, you're not going to find me, in the Spirit Filled congregation trying to tell them, how they should practice their faith.

Are you not aware that there are charismatic Baptist churches? There are even charismatic Southern Baptist churches.

 

[stelow]

"Pentecostal" and "Baptist" refer to two general groupings of denominations, each with a distinct emphasis. My experience is that, outside of these distinctions, they are often very similar.

Pentecostalism places a high degree of emphasis on "gifts of the Spirit", especially those that seem supernatural (e.g., tongues, faith healing, prophesy). Many Pentecostals place a very high premium on the gift of tongues, some of them even believing that having the gift of tongues is the only to know that one is saved.

Baptists generally do not place such an emphasis on spiritual gifts, and when they do, the focus tends to be more on gifts that serve a practical ministerial purpose (administration, prophesy, discernment, etc.). The Baptist emphasis is more directed to (a) believer's Baptism (as opposed to infant baptism) and (b) salvation by faith alone.

 

[Philothei]

Mod hat on


This thread will remain closed, since it appears that this subject cannot be discussed in a civil manner.

Mod hat off


​