Pentecostalism

[Ribosome]

i dont know much about pentecostalism, and would like to know how baptists view it.

basically, why are baptists not pentecostals? what makes these 2 denominations different?

are there calvinists in pentecostalism too?

 

[Pete_Martinez]

I do believe a pentecostal can be calvinist. Where (most) baptists and pentecostals differ is on the gifts of the spirit. The majority of baptists believe they ceased back then. Pentecostals do not. You have some denominations of pentecostals that believe that if you don't speak in tongues you are not saved. There are others called oneness pentecostals which believe that Jesus Christ is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in one. In other words, no trinity.

I have met pentecostals with really good bible knowledge and very good spiritual fruit. So I do believe you can be a pentecostal and saved, however I would be really concerned about the tongues and oneness pentecostals. I hope that answers it a little bit.

 

[rwbyus]

Hi, I have a very good friend who is a pentecostal pastor, We have long since agreed to disagree but we agree on most things. Tongues is a major one, he does not think you have speak in tonques to be saved (as many pentecostal's do), but that it is a outward showing of salvation.
My view, if we can agree on 4 issues we can get along.
1) Jesus is the Son of GOD.
2) He was born of a virgin.
3) He died and paid the price for my personal sins.
4) He rose again defeating death.
Everything else is something else and you should worship with like minded people.
One last thing, they can get, uh, filled with Spirit and a little animated so that some feel intimidated, maybe some Baptist I know could loosen up some and at least smile in GOD's presence.

 

[FaithPleases]

so baptists believe you must speak tongues otherwise you aren't saved?

 

[His_disciple3]

well I was raised baptist, answered the call to preach. God directed me to Proverbs 2, If I want knowledge I seek it like hidden treasure, so in my study, I saw that what I was taught and learned as a baptist was only scriptures as the Baptist sees them. So I pastored a Non-denom. church that believed as pentecostal do, concerning the Gifts. and I attend a southern baptist Church that believes in the Spiritual gifts. I got challenged by Tommy Zito at a local pentecostal meeting, to ask God to give me what He had instore for me. I was Baptized with the Holy Spirit that night, but did not speak in tongues til much later. However my walk with God has never been the same, for the better. Jesus, John the baptist and Paul all confirmed that the water baptism was to be changed to the Spirit Baptism( Paul did so in Acts 19 ). Jesus also showed this by His very first recorded miracle, when He changed the water to wine. So with all my study being tossed between baptist doctrine as far as not letting go and entering into the Pentecostal Doctrine, I have narrowed the difference between baptist and pentecostal down to three verses in the Holy Bible:

1 Corinthians 13:8-10
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
KJV
actually it comes down to verse 10. 8 says that tongues shall cease prophecies will fail and some Baptist says that this happened when the orginal twelve Apostles died out but there is even a misunderstanding about that when the Apostles died out was not when the perfect which is to comes comes. and also for Paul was a Apostle to the gentiles and not one of the orginal twelve, so bibical there was 14 apostles Judas was replaced by Matthias, and then Paul did not replace him as a apostle to the jews which had to have twelve apostle for the twelve tribes of Israel, however verse 10 tells us when tongues will cease and prophecies will fail, but when that which is perfect is Come, so other baptist says this is the reference to the cannon of the Holy Scriptures, when the Holy Bible came about we no longer need tongues or prophecy. so the perfect one which is to come is the Holy Bible. but the Pentecostal says that the perfect which is to come is when the Christ comes back in His fullness, this is when the tongues and prophecies will be done away with. Which to me from scriptures makes more sense that when the perfect one which is to come would mean when Jesus returns as King of Kings instead of it meaning the Holy Bible, and I come to this conclusion according to these scriptures within themselves. look at what at it says that knowledge will vanish, knowledge does not vanish with the Holy Bible but rather increases, when Jesus comes we won't need the Knowledge no longer as Adam and EVE before the tree of Knowledge, so it will vanish. the one thing where I praise God that he directed me to a Baptist Church, that believes in the Spiritual gifts, is that most pentecostal believe that one can lose their salvation, while most Baptist including myself. believe That what work that Christ began in me That He will finish it, that I have the promise of God or gift of God which is eternal life through Jesus Christ. and according to jude God is able to keep me from falling. I hope this will help.
<edit>

 

[dies-l]

"Pentecostal" and "Baptist" refer to two general groupings of denominations, each with a distinct emphasis. My experience is that, outside of these distinctions, they are often very similar.

Pentecostalism places a high degree of emphasis on "gifts of the Spirit", especially those that seem supernatural (e.g., tongues, faith healing, prophesy). Many Pentecostals place a very high premium on the gift of tongues, some of them even believing that having the gift of tongues is the only to know that one is saved.

Baptists generally do not place such an emphasis on spiritual gifts, and when they do, the focus tends to be more on gifts that serve a practical ministerial purpose (administration, prophesy, discernment, etc.). The Baptist emphasis is more directed to (a) believer's Baptism (as opposed to infant baptism) and (b) salvation by faith alone.

 

[twin1954]

Why I am a cessationist. I admit that much of this comes from &#8220; Signs of the Apostles&#8221; by Walter Chantry. He is not my only source but he did help shape my views. I also read many Pentecostal pages on the subject and found almost all of them saying pretty much the same thing. Only that the gifts had not ceased but not giving any real reason why. I also studied some Pentecostal history and was convinced that the modern day gifts were absent until about the 1800&#8217;s. Most of those who hold to modern day gifts trace their history to the so-called Azusa Street Revival which took place between 1906 to 1913.
Now to look at the way miracles and signs were used in the Scriptures.
Joseph was the first to receive extraordinary gifts from God. He didn&#8217;t work miracles but did do things that were not common. His gifts involved delivering divinely revealed truth. He was a Prophet of God.

Next we have Moses, the first to work miracles. His miracles were given as a sign that he came from God and spoke from God. This principle applies to all Old Testament miracles in that they were done as a sign that the one doing them was a Prophet from God and spoke for God. When they were done it was expected that the inspired word of God was to be spoken.

The miracles of Jesus are next in our study. His miracles were primarily to show His authority as the Prophet of God.

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: The miracles of the Apostles testified to their authority as God&#8217;s prophets, they who spoke the revelation of God.

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
New Testament miracles are, in Scripture, viewed as God&#8217;s stamp of approval on the message of the Apostles.

Ordinary Christians and gifts. Every recorded instance of men receiving these gifts were under the direct ministry of an Apostle.

This brings me to the conclusion that no true servent of Christ will be given power to work miracles unless he is directly associated with bring fresh revelation from God. They are given as signs of God to show He sent the ones performing miracles and we should expect to hear from God when they are done. There are no more Apostles as there are no more that saw and heard directly from Christ as did those who gave us the Scriptures. Also to believe that men today receive a fresh revelation from God is to say the Scriptures are not sufficient.

As to tongues I will write on those some other time.

 

[His_disciple3]

what amazes me is that Joel's prophecy in joel chapter 2 and and this is the prophecy that peter quoted in Acts 2 almost word for word, and peter testified that pentecost was that which was spoken of joel's prophecy, ( but men say that pentecost was the FULFILLING of joel's prophecy ) however if we look at the prophecy in whole joel says that during his prophecy that the sun darkens and the moon turns to blood, before that great and notable day that the Lord comes. wake up folks this ain't happened yet, we are still in the days of Joel's prophecy!! some say that to be an Apostle one has to have seen the miracles that Jesus did. could someone please show me this from scriptures, and even if it is scripture, is it not unbelievable that we will believe that God allowed John to see to the end times, all the way into the future, but we can't believe that God can allow someone to see into the past. One more thing that is amazing is how some Baptist will say that the gifts mentioned in the great commission in St. Mark was for the Apostles only well two things about that is that if this is true then only the Apostles was told to preach the Gospel and it is very clear from scriptures that the signs would follow the ones that believed what the disciples/Apostles preached.

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Mark 16:15-20

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And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.​

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He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.​

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And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;​

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.They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.​

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So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.​

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And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
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&#12288;KJV​

 

[rwbyus]

Hi, These are the discussions that show why there are denomination, people will see things differently. That is why most of friends of many denomination have agreed that if you can agree on the 4 things we can get together in heaven and rejoice and laugh at what we have used to think was so important. Worship with like minded folk and praise with all.
1) Jesus was/is the Son of GOD
2) Born of a virgin
3) Died for My personal sin and paid my debt for my sin
4) Rose from the grave defeating death

 

[GrayAngel]

Just like there are different kinds of Baptists, there are different kinds of Pentecostals. I've only had experience with one type of Pentecostal: the United Pentecostal Church. I just want to make clear that all Pentecostals are not UPC.

There are so many things wrong with the UPC that I can't even count. First of all, they are very legalistic, and most of their rules are for their women. Women cannot cut their hair, wear pants, or wear skirts that are above their knees. They're also not allowed to watch TV, although many, if not all, break this rule in secret. Books like Harry Potter are banned as evil, and they will try to convince you to burn it if they find out you're reading it.

To be saved, one must believe. BUT, they must also be baptized. And if the Holy Spirit enters them, then they will speak in tongues. If that person does not speak in tongues, then they are not saved.

When they pray, they all wail at the top of their lungs, speaking in tongues and making their own interjections. It's impossible to know what is even being prayed for.

When they preach, they speak in tongues (they're obsessed with this gift), as do most everyone in the audience. Everybody seems to think they're a prophet too, and they're quick to tell everyone what "God said" to them, though they're wrong about 99% of the time.

They also have these petty ways of separating themselves from other denominations. For example: one must be baptized specifically in the name of Jesus, not the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, if it's to be a saving baptism. They've also got it in their heads that trinitarians believe in three gods, not one God in three parts as we do in reality. And so they'll insist that Jesus is the entirety of God. For this reason, they'll refer to themselves as "Oneness Pentecostals."

The differences between UPC and Baptists are almost like night and day.

 

[rwbyus]

Just like there are different kinds of Baptists, there are different kinds of Pentecostals. I've only had experience with one type of Pentecostal: the United Pentecostal Church. I just want to make clear that all Pentecostals are not UPC.

There are so many things wrong with the UPC that I can't even count. First of all, they are very legalistic, and most of their rules are for their women. Women cannot cut their hair, wear pants, or wear skirts that are above their knees. They're also not allowed to watch TV, although many, if not all, break this rule in secret. Books like Harry Potter are banned as evil, and they will try to convince you to burn it if they find out you're reading it.

To be saved, one must believe. BUT, they must also be baptized. And if the Holy Spirit enters them, then they will speak in tongues. If that person does not speak in tongues, then they are not saved.

When they pray, they all wail at the top of their lungs, speaking in tongues and making their own interjections. It's impossible to know what is even being prayed for.

When they preach, they speak in tongues (they're obsessed with this gift), as do most everyone in the audience. Everybody seems to think they're a prophet too, and they're quick to tell everyone what "God said" to them, though they're wrong about 99% of the time.

They also have these petty ways of separating themselves from other denominations. For example: one must be baptized specifically in the name of Jesus, not the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, if it's to be a saving baptism. They've also got it in their heads that trinitarians believe in three gods, not one God in three parts as we do in reality. And so they'll insist that Jesus is the entirety of God. For this reason, they'll refer to themselves as "Oneness Pentecostals."

The differences between UPC and Baptists are almost like night and day.

Hi, Yes sounds very legalist and tradition bound. Sincerly hope thier hope is in Jesus and not thier traditions and laws. Amen

 

[MatthewPoole]

I will simply say this.

I was involved with that for a very long time. 21 Years. I've been saved for 29 years.

I would stay far, far, far, away from that Movement!

Blessings and Peace,

-Pat

 

[Galvanized]

what amazes me is that Joel's prophecy in joel chapter 2 and and this is the prophecy that peter quoted in Acts 2 almost word for word, and peter testified that pentecost was that which was spoken of joel's prophecy, ( but men say that pentecost was the FULFILLING of joel's prophecy ) however if we look at the prophecy in whole joel says that during his prophecy that the sun darkens and the moon turns to blood, before that great and notable day that the Lord comes. wake up folks this ain't happened yet, we are still in the days of Joel's prophecy!! some say that to be an Apostle one has to have seen the miracles that Jesus did. could someone please show me this from scriptures, and even if it is scripture, is it not unbelievable that we will believe that God allowed John to see to the end times, all the way into the future, but we can't believe that God can allow someone to see into the past. One more thing that is amazing is how some Baptist will say that the gifts mentioned in the great commission in St. Mark was for the Apostles only well two things about that is that if this is true then only the Apostles was told to preach the Gospel and it is very clear from scriptures that the signs would follow the ones that believed what the disciples/Apostles preached.

​

Mark 16:15-20

15 ​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.​

16 ​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.​

17 ​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;​

18 ​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

.They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.​

19 ​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.​

20 ​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
​

&#12288;KJV​

Read Josephus's history on the 'War of the Jews'. There were many signs and wonders that preceded the destruction of Jerusalem. There was a "sword" in the sky, the gates to the temple opened, a voice from the temple that said "Let us depart hence", and a shaking, a madman repeating over and over for 7 years "woe, woe to Jerusalem and to the Holy House!", and the vision and sound of armies fighting in the sky around Jerusalem that were seen by common people (as reported by Josephus). The sun and the moon did not experience what the scripture says, though Matthew Henry figures it to be symbolic of revolutions and destruction of countries. Peter was pretty clear that "now" was the fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel, and, as the other poster mentioned, most of these gifts now trumpeted today have their origins with the early 1900s from Azusa. The one who introduced tongue speak to Charles Seymour (I think that was his name) did not believe in the Trinity either. It's strange that the gifts of the Spirit can be introduced by heretics.

If memory serves, and I will need to double confirm this, since it has been a long time since I have read on it, but the war itself lasted 7 years. The temple was destroyed 3 1/2 years through by Titus, the "Prince who is to come", and the war ended at the end of 7 years with the seige against Massada. The commentaries of Matthew Henry disagree somewhat with this opinion of mine.

This is also why I feel a rebuilt temple is not required for the "end times", since I believe the Book of Daniel was fulfilled back then, though there are multiple interpretations.

----

And as for the "gift of tongues", one would assume that an angelic language would always be the same. It is different for everyone who speaks it, mostly consisting of babble that anyone can produce in an emotional ecstasy if they were so inclined. If you can interpret this angelic speak, one would assume that there would be common verbs, nouns, etc, but none exist. Of the examples of tongues in the Bible, the only one I can think of involves the speaking of known languages. The 'groanings' that cannot be uttered are, well, not examples of tongues since they cannot be uttered, and prayer itself is only useful when it is done with a purpose (do not vainly repeat as the heathens do when you pray, said Jesus from my memory).

As for visions and dreams... Well, who knows, but I've never met a person who ever had a prophecy that was somewhat useful. Most of the time they were useless, and if they were not useless they were adding new doctrines or "revelations". They say that the Catholics are awful with their countless traditions, but I suspect the pentecostals have invented more in just a hundred years than did the Catholics. Most of it revolves around prosperity, angels of finance, never ending revivals and other nonsense. Not that revivals are bad, but their revivals are shallow, empty displays of emotion that have no connection to God.

 

[His_disciple3]

Read Josephus's history on the 'War of the Jews'. There were many signs and wonders that preceded the destruction of Jerusalem. There was a "sword" in the sky, the gates to the temple opened, a voice from the temple that said "Let us depart hence", and a shaking, a madman repeating over and over for 7 years "woe, woe to Jerusalem and to the Holy House!", and the vision and sound of armies fighting in the sky around Jerusalem that were seen by common people (as reported by Josephus). The sun and the moon did not experience what the scripture says, though Matthew Henry figures it to be symbolic of revolutions and destruction of countries. Peter was pretty clear that "now" was the fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel, and, as the other poster mentioned, most of these gifts now trumpeted today have their origins with the early 1900s from Azusa. The one who introduced tongue speak to Charles Seymour (I think that was his name) did not believe in the Trinity either.

It's strange that the gifts of the Spirit can be introduced by heretics.

so you find it strange that scriptures are still being fulfilled, When Jesus said to some on judgement to depart from Him , they said we have done great works/ wonders in your name, But Jesus said I never knew You, they weren't saved and walked away for Jesus NEVER knew them, so here Jesus said that lost people would do miracles in His name. so how can that be? as Joel prophesied after this I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, not just my people but ALL FLESH, so even as Jesus said that lost people would receive the Gifts I think ALL FLESH would include heretics also so why would it seem strange to you, Because His ways are much higher than our ways and His thoughts are up there also, and also seeing that this would seem strange to you, may prove to yourself that you don't know scripture as well as you thought you did , so it might be that you may not know who the true heretics are. This is the very reason God said in John letters to try the spirits to see if they are of God! and I do believe that the Christ has come in the flesh and with that i believe that Jesus is the same God that He was tomorrow, today and yesterday, so He can still use anyone He chooses to do His Work here on earth. even as prophets and Miracle workers were used in the Old and the New testament, they can still be used today.


quote]
so are you saying that the great tribulation period has already happened?

 

[Galvanized]

so you find it strange that scriptures are still being fulfilled, When Jesus said to some on judgement to depart from Him , they said we have done great works/ wonders in your name, But Jesus said I never knew You, they weren't saved and walked away for Jesus NEVER knew them, so here Jesus said that lost people would do miracles in His name. so how can that be? as Joel prophesied after this I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, not just my people but ALL FLESH, so even as Jesus said that lost people would receive the Gifts I think ALL FLESH would include heretics also so why would it seem strange to you, Because His ways are much higher than our ways and His thoughts are up there also, and also seeing that this would seem strange to you, may prove to yourself that you don't know scripture as well as you thought you did , so it might be that you may not know who the true heretics are. This is the very reason God said in John letters to try the spirits to see if they are of God! and I do believe that the Christ has come in the flesh and with that i believe that Jesus is the same God that He was tomorrow, today and yesterday, so He can still use anyone He chooses to do His Work here on earth. even as prophets and Miracle workers were used in the Old and the New testament, they can still be used today.


quote]
so are you saying that the great tribulation period has already happened?

The great problem is that Pentecostals very rarely "test the spirits". They rely on themselves moreso than they do the Bible. I did not say I find it strange that scripture is being fulfilled. I am saying that heretics cannot be used by the Holy Spirit to perform miracles. There are false miracles, false prophecies, etc, that must be guarded against. For example, there were those Jews who would invoke the name of Paul or Jesus to perform their exorcisms, but found themselves driven out by the demons who refused to acknowledge them.

As for my views of the end times, my beliefs are largely undeveloped. I have never finished my study on the end times. However, it seems many things that were said in Joel could also be applied to the events that happened right before the destruction of Jerusalem. That they will happen again, or that the fulfillment of them in one case was only a taste of what would happen later, I am uncertain, but I don't think certain parts of modern day interpretations are correct since they emphasize the recreation of the Temple, even though the temple would not be the house of God any longer. Many of the ancients believed that Daniel was already fulfilled, just in a different way than modern Bible teachers conceive.

 

[BrandenHarvey]

I was raised in the Pentecostal Church of God. In fact, my dad, grandpa, and uncle are pastors in that denomination.

Their beliefs are similiar to Baptists, as far as I know. Now, I'm not a Baptist (I'm a Seventh-day Adventist), so this is just as far as I know from friends who are Baptists.

The PCG is obsessed with speaking in tongues. They don't believe that you have to speak in tongues to be saved. But they believe you have to speak in tongues to have the Holy Spirit. So, if you don't speak in tongues, you don't have the Holy Spirit. You also can't be a pastor, preach a sermon, or teach a Bible class unless you speak in tongues. They speak in tongues when they pray, before Communion, and during foot-washing ceremonies.

The only other thing that is different from Baptists that I know of is salvation. The PCG believes you can lose your salvation if you turn your back on God (which I actually agree with). And they believe blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is mocking someone who was speaking in tongues, which most PCG members have done when they were teenagers, so they're all lost. lol

I have nothing against the church. I just don't agree with it. I don't believe the members of the church are lost. I believe I will see my family, which are mostly PCG, in heaven.

 

[eachallberg]

Awesome!

A thread is already started on this subject Baptists views v.s. Pentecostal views (,this was found errant on the forum).

We need to be baptized twice, water (John's repentance) and fire (Christ's Holy Spirit).

Do Baptists emphasize the same baptism views as Pentecostals?
(Acts 19:6)

Although the only label we need is Christian (No denomination).

Peace.

 

[GrayAngel]

Awesome!

A thread is already started on this subject Baptists views v.s. Pentecostal views (,this was found errant on the forum).

We need to be baptized twice, water (John's repentance) and fire (Christ's Holy Spirit).

Do Baptists emphasize the same baptism views as Pentecostals?
(Acts 19:6)

Although the only label we need is Christian (No denomination).

Peace.

One does not need to be baptized twice. You have to know the context of the verse to know what's going on. Paul was speaking to a new group of believers which had recently risen out of Ephesus. These people were most likely converted by Apollos, who was mentioned a little earlier.

Apollos was described as a believer, who taught accurately despite his lack of training in the gospel. This is why the believers did not know about the Holy Spirit. Apollos' understanding was incomplete, yet he prepared these believers for when Paul would arrive.

Apollos had them baptized in John's baptism, which was for the purpose of "making the path straight" for the Lord Jesus. But after Jesus' death, John's baptism was made insufficient, and was replaced with Jesus' baptism. This is the only baptism we need.

Also note, earlier in Paul's journey, we see a similar event with those who were already baptized with Jesus' baptism, but they did not have the Holy Spirit because they lacked the laying on of hands that came after it.

Acts 8:14-17 - When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

 

[Skala]

Does anyone know how big the "oneness" movement is in Pentecostalism?

 

[BrandenHarvey]

I believe the Assembly of God is the biggest Pentecostal denomination. But the United Pentecostal Church, which is the main "Oneness" church, is the second biggest.