Pentecostalism and orthadoxy

[MariaRegina]

Are Roman Catholic hymms deemed Protestant, too?

No, but some of the more recent Latin Catholic hymns sound very protestant in that they are far removed from the Gregorian chant I grew up with.

Something from my music theory, and Byzantine and Gregorian chant classes:

Byzantine Chant is similiar but not identical to Gregorian Chant, however, Gregorian Chant lacks the Eastern sounding diabolus found in Tones 2 and 6 that drives many westerners nuts. If you watched the PBS series on The Chronicles of Narnia, that diabolus interval is the announcement of horns that Aslan is arriving. Da-Ta (It's a diminished 5th.)

Gregorian Chant was adapted from Byzantine Chant. So too, Russian Chant is a westernized Byzantine Chant without the exotic Byzantine tones 2 and 6.

Greek Byzantine Chant doesn't use notes or puncta but broken wavy lines and swirls to indicate note position. It takes a couple of years in order to read the psaltic notation.

Russian Chant is westernized using modern western musical notation. It sounds rather melancholic but they are introducing new melodies as research uncovers these hymns.

Anyway, the Byzantine Chant was influenced by the Jewish chant which was used to sing the Psalms of David. In fact, several Jewish converts to Orthodox Christianity said that when a particular Byzantine Cherubic Hymn is sung, it sounds like it came straight out of a Russian synagogue. There was a lot of sharing going on between Judaic and Christian musicians during the early centuries.

Hope this helps, and maybe our resident musicians can share some more and fill in the blanks here.

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[ufonium2]

Aria, that's a great explanation. I'm humbled and a little scared to jump in after that. But, I love to talk about music even when I'm out of my comfort zone, so here are a few thoughts I hope can add to your excellent post:

For the unfamiliar, it might be good to explain "Gregorian" chant. It's called because a large amount of pre-existing Latin church music was codified during the reign of Pope Gregory I (6th century.) A lot of what we call "Gregorian" chant was written later, but Gregory I is the Pope who got the ball rolling and decided that every church in his control should sing the exact same thing. (Those of us who have visited another Orthodox church and embarassed ourselves by singing something differently than everyone else can appreciate why this is a good idea.)

Anyway, Gregorian chant originally used Byzantine notation. But, Byzantine notation was less than precise, and still left a lot up to interpretation and the regional variance that Rome was trying to get rid of. So they invent more and more precise ways to notate music over the next thousand years until they eventually came up with something resembling modern music notation.

This precision eventually led to a tendency among Latin composers (and later their Protestant offspring) to dictate and emphasize more complex harmonies. The new notation also dictated rhythm, which Byzantine chant was unable to do.

Since the East never really saw a need for every choir to sing exactly the same thing, they never invented a system that could dictate the exact interval between several voices. Of course Eastern music has harmony too, but it's more a by-product of two or three melodies interacting than it is someone saying "we need a seventh in this chord if the resolution is going to sound final." They also didn't stress rhythm, letting it be dictated by the cadence of the text. As a result, Western music tends to sound thicker and more solid, while Eastern music sounds more etheral and improvisatory.

The wrench that gets thrown into this neat scheme is Russia. Russia had its own chant that had evolved in relative isolation from Byzantine chant for hundreds of years. The Russian Church of the Renaissance had some really weird ideas about what sounded good. They would take two, three or four melodies (again, the East is all about melody) and layer them on top of eachother in ways that would make your skin crawl.

This music was one of the early casualties of the westernization of Russia. Around 1600, the traditional dmestvenny (pardon my awful transliteration, I don't speak Russian) polyphonic chant was abandoned. In its place, they basically took the plainchant melody from which the dmestvenny had been derived, slapped it onto your standard Western four-part harmonic progression, and that was the new Russian church music. That style is still used in the Russian tradition today, which is why Russian church music sounds more comfortable to those of us raised in the Protestant traditions.

So, that's a long way of explaining "western sounding" versus "eastern sounding" music. For the record, one of my favorite memories is sitting around a fire with my Orhtodox priest and several parishoners, singing old Southern Gospel songs

 

[Matthias]

Yeah. The moment my local parish started playing hymms with electric guitars and drums, I started to think maybe something was wrong. Where is tradition? (This is a Roman Catholic parish, by the way!).

To see the priests clapping and church-goers waving their hands in the air and clapping along really makes me think it is more of a rock concert than the House of God...

 

[Kripost]

Yeah. The moment my local parish started playing hymms with electric guitars and drums, I started to think maybe something was wrong. Where is tradition? (This is a Roman Catholic parish, by the way!).

To see the priests clapping and church-goers waving their hands in the air and clapping along really makes me think it is more of a rock concert than the House of God...

EEK! While the other things are already bad, having the priest clapping is really overdoing it.

 

[Michael G]

Yeah. The moment my local parish started playing hymms with electric guitars and drums, I started to think maybe something was wrong. Where is tradition? (This is a Roman Catholic parish, by the way!).

To see the priests clapping and church-goers waving their hands in the air and clapping along really makes me think it is more of a rock concert than the House of God...

While I am very familiar with the fact that happens in many Roman Catholic parishes, it still makes me say "IS OUTRAGE!" when I hear it. Actually it is worse than outrage, "IS SACRILEGE!"

 

[kenneth558]

I follow this discussion with interest, also. I consider myself an independent Protestant. I say independent only because I can find no other believers who believe the Bible to the extent that I do. I read the KJV, though if I want the most accuracy, I try to look into the original languages. My beliefs differ from other Protestants mainly in subjects found in I Corinthians. Let me elaborate...I gather from I Cor 4:17 that Paul taught the Corinthians "ways" that are "in Christ" and taught them to all other churches as well. The teachings of this epistle are among those "ways". These were written down for the same reason that the rest of Scripture was written - "...for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the worlds are come." (10:11) Peter tells us that the written Word is more sure than hearing a voice from heaven or being an eyewitness. Therefore, I believe we as believers should still be observing the written teachings of I Corinthians about head coverings, spiritual gifts, worship service, etc. So far, I haven't found any other believers who would believe this way.

My first question would be regarding the worship practices commanded in I Corinthians chapter 14. (Keep in mind that verse 37 of this very chapter reminds us "that the things I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.") Verse 26 of this chapter begins with the same Greek question found in v.15 - "What is it then?" or "How is it then, brethren?" - and continues by commanding those of us upon whom the ends of the worlds are come to conduct our worship services in a specific manner. Every one of the men should [or may] have a psalm, a doctrine, a tongue, a revelation, [or] an interpretation, all of which should be done unto edifying and in the manner detailed. Do Orthodox churches practice the commands of this section of scripture?

 

[Orthosdoxa]

Hi, Ken!

Therefore, I believe we as believers should still be observing the written teachings of I Corinthians about head coverings, spiritual gifts, worship service, etc. So far, I haven't found any other believers who would believe this way.

We've had the tradition of head coverings for 2000 years.

And some of our monks and nuns have spiritual gifts that fill me with awe.

Every one of the men should [or may] have a psalm, a doctrine, a tongue, a revelation, [or] an interpretation, all of which should be done unto edifying and in the manner detailed. Do Orthodox churches practice the commands of this section of scripture?

I'm not quite sure I completely understand your question. We use the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chyrysostom, which can be seen here: http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/liturgy/liturgy.html

I hope maybe that answered a bit - perhaps someone who knows more can chime in.

Welcome to TAW!

LK

 

[kenneth558]

Hi, Ken!



We've had the tradition of head coverings for 2000 years.

And some of our monks and nuns have spiritual gifts that fill me with awe.


I'm not quite sure I completely understand your question. We use the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chyrysostom, which can be seen here: http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/liturgy/liturgy.html

I hope maybe that answered a bit - perhaps someone who knows more can chime in.

Welcome to TAW!

LK

Hi Anonykat!

What do you mean by saying merely that some of your monks and nuns have spiritual gifts? I trust that those gifts are in addition to the gifts that the rest of you have. ???

I didn't see any place in the liturgy for the attendees (the faithful) to voice their prophecies, tongues, psalms, and doctrines. What did I miss?

I'm sure glad you have remained faithful to observe the head coverings teaching. And you do realize that particular teaching deals with behavior OUTSIDE the church service as well as inside?

The Lord bless you!

 

[Orthosdoxa]

What do you mean by saying merely that some of your monks and nuns have spiritual gifts? I trust that those gifts are in addition to the gifts that the rest of you have. ???

Let's define "spiritual gifts" - I'd like to make sure we're on the same page here.... do you mean speaking in tongues and some of the more charismatic gifts?

I didn't see any place in the liturgy for the attendees (the faithful) to voice their prophecies, tongues, psalms, and doctrines. What did I miss?

You missed nothing. We are there to worship God, not fulfill a list. The Liturgy is to minister to God, not to us.

The Lord bless you!

And you as well, friend! Keep in mind I'm still a young 'un in the faith - I'm still seeing if anyone else is going jump on in here....

LK

 

[MariaRegina]

Hi Anonykat!

What do you mean by saying merely that some of your monks and nuns have spiritual gifts? I trust that those gifts are in addition to the gifts that the rest of you have. ???

Dear Kenneth:

Some of our priests, nuns, monks, and devout laity have spoken in languages they they have never studied. They also understand these various tongues.

Gifts of healing are occurring right now in Greece. Constantine Zalalas has tapes detailing these miracles and wonders.

I didn't see any place in the liturgy for the attendees (the faithful) to voice their prophecies, tongues, psalms, and doctrines. What did I miss?

Shortly after St. Paul wrote Corinthians, the Church stopped the practice of the exercise of the charismatic gifts during the Divine Liturgy, except during chanting. I've heard some beautiful singing of psalms and other liturgical texts where the notes were not written down but the person was singing in the spirit.

Charismatic gifts are exercised elsewhere where the faithful can teach and catechize, sing songs and utter prophecies. There is the famous prophecy of St. Nilus uttered about 500 years ago that describes in detail the corruptions of our modern day life.

I'm sure glad you have remained faithful to observe the head coverings teaching. And you do realize that particular teaching deals with behavior OUTSIDE the church service as well as inside?

The Lord bless you!

God bless and protect you also.

Lovingly in Christ our God,
Elizabeth