Pelosi receives Communion in Vatican despite abortion stance

[Green Sun]

I guess an appeal to authority works for some but the consistent teaching of Christianity from the beginning seems to me to weigh more on the side of the Trad/Conservative Caths on this issue. If the Catechism could be changed to be against the death penalty, in contrast to the Apostle Paul, Saintly Kings and even Popes, I would dare say that part of the Catechism could be changed again to reflect the historic Catholic standard.

Thus i don't see why this makes any Bishop hypocritical if they support the death penalty. Yes technically in violation of Church teaching, but it's rather weak if you want to enforce it and insist all Catholic clergy be against the death penalty if they are against abortion.

The issue is clearly outlined by the Catechism, and even if a person disagrees with what the Catechism says, the Catechism is still the Catechism, and thus still the belief of the Catholic Church, regardless of what antiquity says.

Appeal to tradition/antiquity is a similar logical argument as Appeal to authority, for what it's worth.

A violation is a violation, appending it as a "technically" doesn't reduce that. If the Catechism rules against abortion and the death penalty, then that's just how it is.

I don't think either of us can make much progress on a further debate on this between each other, since we both have our positions pretty settled it seems. I'm not gonna budge on the death penalty. It's wrong and against the belief that life is sacred.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The issue is clearly outlined by the Catechism, and even if a person disagrees with what the Catechism says, the Catechism is still the Catechism, and thus still the belief of the Catholic Church, regardless of what antiquity says.

Appeal to tradition/antiquity is a similar logical argument as Appeal to authority, for what it's worth.

A violation is a violation, appending it as a "technically" doesn't reduce that. If the Catechism rules against abortion and the death penalty, then that's just how it is.

I don't think either of us can make much progress on a further debate on this between each other, since we both have our positions pretty settled it seems. I'm not gonna budge on the death penalty. It's wrong and against the belief that life is sacred.

Well the appeal to the tradition in question is rooted in more than just the tradition itself. It goes to the very how how we live as societies. Are all actions tolerable to which no one can be punished by death? How then do we justify the concept of the state itself, the state being something which has power of life and death over everyone. There is in that a holistic understanding that the Church has a place in society.

Whereas what do the anti-death penalty appeal to? They can't appeal to the bible or Church tradition. Saint Paul doesn't say Rome had no authority to use sword, rather he tells Christians to be good so that the sword is not used against them. The Church likewise has historically worked with regimes which executed people for various offenses. No the logic is thoroughly modern and alien to Christian realism and reason on the subject.

I agree the Catechism is still the Catechism, but my point remains quite firm. If it could be changed to be against the death penalty, it can be changed to be for it. The Catechism doesn't seem to be an inviolable document, especially if you can change the Church's historic position on a whim.

 

[Green Sun]

Well the appeal to the tradition in question is rooted in more than just the tradition itself. It goes to the very how how we live as societies. Are all actions tolerable to which no one can be punished by death? How then do we justify the concept of the state itself, the state being something which has power of life and death over everyone. There is in that a holistic understanding that the Church has a place in society.

Whereas what do the anti-death penalty appeal to? They can't appeal to the bible or Church tradition. Saint Paul doesn't say Rome had no authority to use sword, rather he tells Christians to be good so that the sword is not used against them. The Church likewise has historically worked with regimes which executed people for various offenses. No the logic is thoroughly modern and alien to Christian realism and reason on the subject.

I agree the Catechism is still the Catechism, but my point remains quite firm. If it could be changed to be against the death penalty, it can be changed to be for it. The Catechism doesn't seem to be an inviolable document, especially if you can change the Church's historic position on a whim.

And until it's changed again, the church's position will be against the death penalty in all it's forms, in any way.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Fair enough.

For what I see, at least, is an archbishop using his power again person he views a political enemy, who has not committed something that deserves a denial of communion, and I don't like an archbishop doing that.

I very much doubt that the archbishop would be willing to reverse this, as long as Mrs. Pelosi is a democratic member of congress, but I might be assigning too much political malice there.

I think you are assigning too much to political malice.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Comparing the death penalty with abortion is nonsensical. Abortion is the rejection of the gospel and of baptism for the child. At least a prisoner under the death penalty can repent and be baptized; also access to a priest. The unborn can't. Jesus said, "Don't fear the one who can kill the body....fear the one who can kill the body and soul." Abortion not only is it killing the body, but also may kill the soul. Pelosi is activity promoting the killing of the body and soul of an unborn.