Pegan Influence on Christianity

[Blackhawk]

There is nothing pagan in the vestments of the Roman Catholic clergy . . they are not even of pagan origin, unlike other religious symbols that are common in Christianity. the dress of clergy are cultural issues that are specifically designed to symbolically remind us of important elements of our Christian faith . nothing more . .

But what if some of the symbols or even the vestments themselves can be traced to paganism in a round about way. What if pagans used to wear something very similiar when they said some kind of prayers?

My answers is: "Who cares!" Only if the RCC meant those symbols to be taken as menaing something pagan does it have any validity at all. But not much for today unless they still look at them in that way. But to say that one should not call a priest "father" because the word can be traced back to mean master is just ludicrous. One is not calling a priest their master when calling them father. At least not in the sense that God is ones master. Should I not call my biological father, father?

But to all those who say that one should not say a word or dress in a certain way because some pagans (who most have forgotten) because the word started in their language or they wore garments like that is missinig a crucial point. The point is no one thinks of those pagans or their religion when saying those words or wearing those clothes. The symbolism has changed.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I dont call my father 'father' in a religious sence.

If you read Matthew 23:1-11 you can clearly see that Jesus is saying dont call anyone 'father' in a religious sence.

WOOOPS! Poor Paul!!!!

And poor US! Look what our scriptures say about spiritual fathers and children!

Look at what Paul said about his being a spiritual "father" and believers being his spiritual "children" . . .


WOOPS! Better throw out Paul's letters since his writings are obviously in error since he is violating Christ's command by his example and obviously encouraging others to do so as well!



Hmmmm . . . .

 

[Debi1967]

I have a good question for all of you all ...

The very wedding rings that you wear can be traced back to pagan roots and yet most christian couples wear them if they are married, and the cross itself can be traced back to pagan roots and I know that far more than Catholics wear the cross on them or have the symbol somewhere in their homes, or churches, so how is it that you then explain the use of these originally pagan symbols .....

Pax Christi
Debi

 

[Blackhawk]

I have a good question for all of you all ...

The very wedding rings that you wear can be traced back to pagan roots and yet most christian couples wear them if they are married, and the cross itself can be traced back to pagan roots and I know that far more than Catholics wear the cross on them or have the symbolized somewhere in there homes, or churches, so how is it that you then explain the use of these originally pagan symbols .....

Pax Christi
Debi

Because they are not pagan symbols. So what if pagan used rings at wedding ceremonies. Christians do not use them in that way at all. Look at these verses.

4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.


7But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do. This meat had pagan origins but Paul thought it was okay to eat it. He only says no because some would to be too weak to understand that it was okay. So eating the meat was okay because they were using it for a different purpose than the pagans and did not put any pagan symbolism on it. So why can't we do the same thing? Especially since no one thinks of some old pagan ritual when wearing a wedding ring.

 

[thereselittleflower]

But what if some of the symbols or even the vestments themselves can be traced to paganism in a round about way. What if pagans used to wear something very similiar when they said some kind of prayers?

My answers is: "Who cares!"

Exactly!

Do christians use the symbol of the cross? What are those who have problems with what the Catholic clergy wears going to do if I can trace it back to paganism? Are you going to throw it out because it has ties to paganism in a round about way?

What about the early chrstian symbol of the fish? Are those who have problems with what the Catholic clergy wears going to throw it out because I can trace it back to paganisum in a round about way?

What about the wedding ring? Are those who have problems with what the Catholic clergy wears going to throw it out because I can trace it back to paganism in a round about way?


So what?!

EVERYTHING can be ultimately traced back to paganism . . Abraham was pagan before he was called of God . . .

Should the Jews have thrown out the Ark of the Covenant because it could be tied to paganism? Did you all know that the pagan groups around them also had their own arks? Did you know that they were a common religious item in pagan cultures at the time? Did you know that they were the thrown of for the queen ot ride out in battle with the armies?

Why would God use such a clearly pagan symbol for His own people in such a conspicuous way for such an important object if it was wrong to use anything that could be tied to paganism in a round about way?


To those who have problems with what the Catholic clergy wear please read the link I provided early on in the thread . . .


Similarity does not mean sameness . .there has to be a legitimate connection.

Those of you who have problems with what the Catholic clergy wear are simply seeing something and making a connection where no legitimate connection exists. No more than there was a legitimate connection between the Ark of the Covenant and all the other arks, similarily constructed, used by the pagan tribes around them.


Please take time to read the article I posted

Here it is again:

THE TWO BABYLONS:
A Case Study in Poor Methodology
http://www.equip.org/free/DC187.htm

If finding a pagan parallel provides proof of paganism, the Lord Himself would be pagan. The woman called Mystery Babylon had a cup in her hand; the Lord has a cup in His hand (Ps. 75:8). Pagan kings sat on thrones and wore crowns; the Lord sits on a throne and wears a crown (Rev. 1:4; 14:14). Pagans worshiped the sun; the Lord is the ?Sun of righteousness? (Mal. 4:2). Pagan gods were likened to stars; the Lord is called ?the bright and Morning star? (Rev. 22:16). Pagan gods had temples dedicated to them; the Lord has a temple (Rev. 7:15). Pagans built a high tower in Babylon; the Lord is a high tower (2 Sam. 22:3). Pagans worshiped idolatrous pillars; the Lord appeared as a pillar of fire (Exod. 13: 21?22). Pagan gods were pictured with wings; the Lord is pictured with wings (Ps. 91:4).

​

Only if the RCC meant those symbols to be taken as menaing something pagan does it have any validity at all. But not much for today unless they still look at them in that way. But to say that one should not call a priest "father" because the word can be traced back to mean master is just ludicrous. One is not calling a priest their master when calling them father. At least not in the sense that God is ones master. Should I not call my biological father, father?

Right!

Was Paul wrong for teachng others to refer to him as their spiritual father? Was Paul worng for teaching that it was OK to do this?

But to all those who say that one should not say a word or dress in a certain way because some pagans (who most have forgotten) because the word started in their language or they wore garments like that is missinig a crucial point. The point is no one thinks of those pagans or their religion when saying those words or wearing those clothes. The symbolism has changed.

EXACTLY! Anyway, no-one except those who are anti-Catholic and those whom anti-Catholics have managed to instill a fear of Catholicism in.



Peace

 

[lionroar0]

WOOOPS! Poor Paul!!!!

And poor US! Look what our scriptures say about spiritual fathers and children!

Look at what Paul said about his being a spiritual "father" and believers being his spiritual "children" . . .


WOOPS! Better throw out Paul's letters since his writings are obviously in error since he is violating Christ's command by his example and obviously encouraging others to do so as well!



Hmmmm . . . .

St Stephen the 1st Martyr calls the Jewish elders "fathers" before he was stoned to death.

 

[Debi1967]

Because they are not pagan symbols. So what if pagan used rings at wedding ceremonies. Christians do not use them in that way at all. Look at these verses.

4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.


7But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do. This meat had pagan origins but Paul thought it was okay to eat it. He only says no because some would to be too weak to understand that it was okay. So eating the meat was okay because they were using it for a different purpose than the pagans and did not put any pagan symbolism on it. So why can't we do the same thing? Especially since no one thinks of some old pagan ritual when wearing a wedding ring.

But wait didn't you just ask this before of TLF:

But what if some of the symbols or even the vestments themselves can be traced to paganism in a round about way, what if pagans used to wear something similar when they said some kind of prayers?

I hope that you remember this question that you asked, because it was the very reason I asked the question that I did. The marriage ring and the Cross are Holy Symbols and the Cross is used in prayer.

Both symbols stem from pagan roots not Christian roots, so therefore in a round a bout way we are converting pagan symbols for use in Christianity, does that make them then less Christian, or is it the symbolism behind it that makes it pagan or Christian? Isn't it in fact the way it is being used and not the object itself? So, therefore to try to claim that Catholics are pagan in their practices because of the use of certain things, is completely off base indeed, otherwise we would not be able to even condone the use of the ring as a symbol of marriage or the Cross as the symbol to show that we believe that Christ is our Lord and Saviour....

It is not the object it is the intent of the use that is what matters, the vestments and the papal garments are there to further the adoration of God not detract from it, what it's roots are in a direct way or indirect way have no relavence in the matter.

Pax Christi
Debi

I am Christian and I am Catholic

What I am not and nor are any of my brethren in word or action is PAGAN

 

[Blackhawk]

Debi,

I agree with you. Basically things like crosses and marraige rings are not pagan symbols today because no one understands the cross or the rings to mean anything pagan. So at one time the cross and rings given at marraige were pagan symbols (and really still can be now) But as Christians we do not take them that way nor does 99.9999% of the population. So I have no problem having a cross in a church or wearing my wedding ring because I nor anyone else basically see them as pagan symbols. Thus they are not pagan symbols any longer.

 

[Debi1967]

Debi,

I agree with you. Basically things like crosses and marraige rings are not pagan symbols today because no one understands the cross or the rings to mean anything pagan. So at one time the cross and rings given at marraige were pagan symbols (and really still can be now) But as Christians we do not take them that way nor does 99.9999% of the population. So I have no problem having a cross in a church or wearing my wedding ring because I nor anyone else basically see them as pagan symbols. Thus they are not pagan symbols any longer.

Ok so then, keeping in mind that I have said this "It is not the object it is the intent of the user that is what matters", If you believed that something that I used in my worship was pagan but I told you that it indeed was not and that I use it for Christian purposes and to glorify the Lord, then what would your answer be to me? Would I still be someong engaging pagan practices just because YOU do not use them in your Worship?

Pax Christi
Debi

 

[Oblio]

The wearing of the wedding ring on the left ring finger is also of 'pagan' roots. Who in the West wears it there for that reason ?? They don't, it is simply because that is the custom in the West. Eastern Christians wear their rings on the right, for Biblical reasons, but that doesn't make it any more right (or left).

 

[Im_A]

this is one of them discussions that is normally on the redundancy trail to me.

Christians want to complain about pagan influences on some of the churches, which sadly enough the Roman Catholics have pinned as the scapegoat of this by other Christians, but the facts are everything is going to have some pagan resemblance. we are influenced all the time by people who are not Christians. and honestly what is wrong with being influenced? those people are God's children too, just children whom dont' have their direction in-tact. now i'm not saying, let's use those things for the same usage as the pagans did, but as it has been said it on here, this is God's World, God's Creation, and we as the body are turning everything back the best way we can to the way it should have been. so i'm thankful for all the people of the faith long ago, to let the pagan influences come in. i'm thankful for the symbols that got turned back and administered to the glory of God Almighty. i'm thankful for the artistic creations, the beautiful statues in the church that maybe can be compared to pagan influences. all the use to praise a Living God. the holidays being turned around in the praise of God Almighty.

plus this is the world we live in. we may not be a part of it in the spiritual sense, but we are human beings, who live in this world. and in a way, i'm thankful for the pagan influences because it shows us the world we live in. i'm not thankful for the pagan religions, but the pagan influences because they are exactly what we are, human beings, and a Creation of God Almighty and enjoying the fruits of this Creation by God. we just have to stand firm to be sure that our intentions are for God Almighty if/when these influences come in, but i'm thankful to see the world as it really is, and see the beauty in these things that is a part of God's creation and through using the things that were created for His glory anyways, and to bring it back into that, then praise be to God.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

There's a great book called "Why Do Catholics Do That" by Kevin Olin Johson and available on Amazon that really helped me understand some of the things didn't grasp, including Papal dress. It is well written and I only felt the urge to toss it across the room once or twice. It's a great resource for thos willing to learn and those who are not just out to demean and degrade our Catholic bretheren, I can't reccomend it enough! It will put to rest all this "pagan" talk pretty quickly if you read it and actually look at what it says and take time to research it out.

 

[thereselittleflower]

this is one of them discussions that is normally on the redundancy trail to me.

Christians want to complain about pagan influences on some of the churches, which sadly enough the Roman Catholics have pinned as the scapegoat of this by other Christians, but the facts are everything is going to have some pagan resemblance. we are influenced all the time by people who are not Christians. and honestly what is wrong with being influenced? those people are God's children too, just children whom dont' have their direction in-tact. now i'm not saying, let's use those things for the same usage as the pagans did, but as it has been said it on here, this is God's World, God's Creation, and we as the body are turning everything back the best way we can to the way it should have been. so i'm thankful for all the people of the faith long ago, to let the pagan influences come in. i'm thankful for the symbols that got turned back and administered to the glory of God Almighty. i'm thankful for the artistic creations, the beautiful statues in the church that maybe can be compared to pagan influences. all the use to praise a Living God. the holidays being turned around in the praise of God Almighty.

Excellent points!

Chrsitianity is about TRANSFORMATION! God takes us and transforms us into the image of His Son. It is about reclaiming people and this world for God. It is about deliverance.

We, as Christ's body, are to be involved in this process of transformation, reclaiming and deliverance, and this includes what we as Christians decide is beneficial to use . . . By doing so we take what was used by pagans and sanctify it, reclaiming it for God, transform it into something that brings God glory; we deliver it from its pagan use and transform it into something for godly use.

plus this is the world we live in. we may not be a part of it in the spiritual sense, but we are human beings, who live in this world. and in a way, i'm thankful for the pagan influences because it shows us the world we live in. i'm not thankful for the pagan religions, but the pagan influences because they are exactly what we are, human beings, and a Creation of God Almighty and enjoying the fruits of this Creation by God. we just have to stand firm to be sure that our intentions are for God Almighty if/when these influences come in, but i'm thankful to see the world as it really is, and see the beauty in these things that is a part of God's creation and through using the things that were created for His glory anyways, and to bring it back into that, then praise be to God.

Peace

 

[thereselittleflower]

There's a great book called "Why Do Catholics Do That" by Kevin Olin Johson and available on Amazon that really helped me understand some of the things didn't grasp, including Papal dress. It is well written and I only felt the urge to toss it across the room once or twice. It's a great resource for thos willing to learn and those who are not just out to demean and degrade our Catholic bretheren, I can't reccomend it enough! It will put to rest all this "pagan" talk pretty quickly if you read it and actually look at what it says and take time to research it out.

Hi flesh!

Its been a while since we have been in a thread together! It is good to see you pop in here!

Thank you for that recommendation . . I hope that those who make a big deal out of this will take the time to read that book. I am really glad you found it so helpful. You know you are always welcome in OBOB . . maybe, if you wanted to talk about the things that made you want to toss it across the room "once or twice", we could help even with that?


Peace

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Hi flesh!

Its been a while since we have been in a thread together! It is good to see you pop in here!

Thank you for that recommendation . . I hope that those who make a big deal out of this will take the time to read that book. I am really glad you found it so helpful. You know you are always welcome in OBOB . . maybe, if you wanted to talk about the things that made you want to toss it across the room "once or twice", we could help even with that?


Peace

It wasn't the theology or doctrine presented that made me want to toss the book, it was the presentation. Much like many of my fellow Protestants make me want to punch the monitor when they keep using RCC even though they know it's offensive to a great deal of our Catholic bretheren. The author, while knowledgeable took much less care in some places than other concerning how Protestants would feel reading his book. He is human and made a mistake in presentation, nothing more.

It's great to see you as well dear heart. I took a hiatus after leaving staff but am back now and just as saddened by these threads as ever.

 

[Hairy Tic]

What are some pagan influences on Christianity that are practiced today and many people don't realize that they're pegan?

## Belief in a God or gods

Creation by the word of a god

Belief in providence

Belief in predestination

The notion of sin... ##

 

[Hairy Tic]

But was not the Jewish God transcendant?

## So was Amun

He was immanment but he was also very transcendant. Creation for one thing pointed to his transcendance. The Bible in the NT and the OT points towards God as being the other. The one who is a class of his own. He was the only one to be worshipped because he was the only one worthy to be worshipped. Also there was always a myterious otherness about God. One could never really know God's ways.

## "Who knows the way of a god (or, God) ?" is a question asked in Babylonia as well. The problem with the gods was, that though they could be worshipped, feared, and loved, they were inscrutable - "how unsearchable his ways !" could have been applied to them very easily; as could much in the OT. ##

So I think that God in the Bible is the transcendant one who is immanent. The church fathers and others did not gain new revelation from greek philosophy but instead used it when it pointed towards the reality of what was taught in the scriptures.

## Nicely put - though, whether the God of Israel-Judah-Judaism-Christianity is so very different from other gods, is a nice question. IMO, the big differentia is ethical monotheism.

There is also the question of what theological account to give of these other worships & other gods: are they veiled forms of the One revealed God; or angels; or demons; or what ? ##

 

[Hairy Tic]

No, they ask the prototype that is depicted in the statue to pray for them to God on their behalf. This is in no way pagan. For it to be pagan, one would have to believe that the statue was actually a god, and to worship that statue as such. Catholics do not do this.

## Nor did pagans - sort of. The trouble is, we're dealing with a lot of religions and ideas. Gods in Mesopotamia might be present in statues in such a way that the statue "became [a] god"; but this did not imply that the god was confined to the statue: the statue was a mode of the god's presence. Equally, if the statue was taken as booty in war, the god was in some sense absent - but not in all respects. The loss of the Ark to the Philistines meant that JHWH was in some sense absent from Israel - "the Glory is departed"; just as Marduk was in some sense absent from Babylon because his statue had been captured by the Elamites; but neither ceased to be worshipped until the things representing them were regained - the cult of them both went on.

Israel worked with much the same ideas as her neighbours - she only seems less influenced by her neighbours than she was, if one knows little of those neighbours. ##

 

[Hairy Tic]

Actually, "April Fool's Day" has very little connection with Christian holidays. The only connection it has is the changing from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian Calendar.

Also, in Orthodox practice, Birthdays are not celebrated, only Namedays.

## Cherubs and hymns are pagan - as are litanies And belief in the existence and power of demons; and seraphs. And belief in a Hell (St. Peter even uses the word "Tartaros" as a verb ).

Revelation through dreams
Revelation of laws by a deity
belief in superhuman spirits
belief in miracles and predictive prophecies
Prayer

- IOW, quite a few things evangelicals insist on, are not of Christian origin. The birth of a god from a virgin is not of Christian origin; its widespread; as is the belief in groups of gods: there are many divine triads - father-mother-son; three goddesses; three gods; husband-wife-lover.

When people try to claim that the Easter Bunny is pagan, they may well be right - but it has nothing to do with why Christians observe the feast at the time. Anymore than April 1 has. ##

 

[Hairy Tic]

Actually, modern wear is derived from paganistic cultures. One example are trousers, which were invented by horse-riding barbarians.

## Unfortunately, kilts are "out" too - the god Baal is often shown wearing one ##