Peanut Gallery: The Immaculate conception of Mary!

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Then he wasn't much of an apologist.

We'll see, won't we?

We still haven't heard from him as to how he regards it as a debate at all, or how he would have us determine if he wins. I'm looking forward to his responding to those inquiries.

An implicit reference to the Immaculate Conception is in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace.

1. Anything and everything can be claimed to be implied... It simply is an admission that it's not there but rather must be imputed INTO the text (kind of putting words in God's mouth - not a good practice, IMHO). All you have revealed is that God said no such thing - you did, and then imputed it INTO the text, rather like penciling it into it and having us pretend that God put it there when you admitted He did not.


2. "Grace" mean undeserved, unmerited favor. That Mary was the full subject of such doesn't imply that her CONCEPTION was "immaculate." It simply means that God poured out His grace on her (as He has on all Christians). To be graced or favored means to the graced or favored. It has nothing to do with her conception.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah






.

 

[JamesThaddeusMartin]

2. "Grace" mean undeserved, unmerited favor. That Mary was the full subject of such doesn't imply that her CONCEPTION was "immaculate." It simply means that God poured out His grace on her (as He has on all Christians). To be graced or favored means to the graced or favored. It has nothing to do with her conception.

Who says that your definition is correct?
can you substantiate this with Scripture?




pax

 

[bbbbbbb]

John 1:16 For of his fulness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

 

[katholikos]

1. Anything and everything can be claimed to be implied......

Seriously: In all fairness, consider protestant beliefs such as Sola Fide or Sola Scriptura. AT BEST they are only implied, because nowhere does Paul or anyone else specifically say you are saved by faith alone. In fact, the only place where the two words "faith" and "alone" stand side by side - faith alone - is in James 2:24 "You see then that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone." Yet protestants hold Sola Fide as a foundation of their doctrines. Same goes for Sola Scriptura.

So if you guys can use implications for your beliefs, so can we. Therefore you cannot use that as a basis to dismiss what I am saying, unless you are willing to jettison Sola Fide ans Sola Scriptura

 

[JamesThaddeusMartin]

John 1:16 For of his fulness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

Thank you. Sounds like we receive the very life of Christ (God). I dont see the word favor anywhere.




pax

 

[D'Ann]

I have a question: Was Jesus sinless? Can sinless be created and come from a sinful vessel?

 

[BreadAlone]

I have a question: Was Jesus sinless? Can sinless be created and come from a sinful vessel?

Christ's sinlessness didn't come from his mother, it came from the fact that He is GOD. I don't know why that's so hard to understand for some people. The only way we could be saved is by God's own Sacrifice, because no one could save themselves by their own merrit. That's the core of our Christain beliefs.

 

[katholikos]

I have a question: Was Jesus sinless? Can sinless be created and come from a sinful vessel?

As much as I applaud your effort, that is a bad argument. The protestant resaponse to that statement would be that for Mary to be sinless Mary's mother would have to be sinlees too, and her mother too, and.. ..well, you get the idea.

It is best to look at EXACTLY what Pope Pius IX pronounced and defined:

"....in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."

The key here is that the Immaculate Conception was a grace of God, and was meritted by "the merits of Jesus Christ."

 

[Uphill Battle]

Seriously: In all fairness, consider protestant beliefs such as Sola Fide or Sola Scriptura. AT BEST they are only implied, because nowhere does Paul or anyone else specifically say you are saved by faith alone. In fact, the only place where the two words "faith" and "alone" stand side by side - faith alone - is in James 2:24 "You see then that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone." Yet protestants hold Sola Fide as a foundation of their doctrines. Same goes for Sola Scriptura.

So if you guys can use implications for your beliefs, so can we. Therefore you cannot use that as a basis to dismiss what I am saying, unless you are willing to jettison Sola Fide ans Sola Scriptura

Sola Scriptura is not a dogma. I don't know how many times that needs to be said...probably a million more, and still won't be acknowledged.

I have a question: Was Jesus sinless? Can sinless be created and come from a sinful vessel?

sure, why not?

As much as I applaud your effort, that is a bad argument. The protestant resaponse to that statement would be that for Mary to be sinless Mary's mother would have to be sinlees too, and her mother too, and.. ..well, you get the idea.

It is best to look at EXACTLY what Pope Pius IX pronounced and defined:

"....in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."

The key here is that the Immaculate Conception was a grace of God, and was meritted by "the merits of Jesus Christ."

doesn't matter which of the two arguments you use. Neither is meritous.

 

[katholikos]

...doesn't matter which of the two arguments you use. Neither is meritous.

Well, since you put it that way........

 

[Uphill Battle]

Well, since you put it that way........

I'll expand.

the argument you criticize, the one that opens up the protestants to the "well, every woman preceding the generation before would have to be sinless" rebuttal is exactly as you say.

the one that you post however, basing off the Papal statement, is also lacking in merit, as it references an undocumented and unsubstantiated occurrence: God intervening at the time of Mary's conception to cleanse her of sin so that she could be sinless. No scriptural indication of this exists.

thirdly, there is no real good reason to believe that Jesus could NOT be born of a sinful woman. Sinlessness of Christ is paramount, sinlessness of everyone, or anyone else, is irrelevant (and quite irreverent, of the sinlessness of Christ himself!)

oft quoted is that it would be impossible for Jesus to be born of a sinless woman... but Jesus said also that what is impossible for Man, is possible with God. I have absolutely no trouble with God using the sinful, to accomplish the divine. He seems to have a habit of it.

 

[D'Ann]

Christ's sinlessness didn't come from his mother, it came from the fact that He is GOD.

Very true. But can God touch anything that is unholy or unpure? What do the Scriptures say about this?

Also, even though, Jesus is Divine, he was made and produced and created as a human in Mary's womb. Could Jesus who is sinless, pure and holy be created in a sinful, unholy and unpure vessel?

I don't know why that's so hard to understand for some people. The only way we could be saved is by God's own Sacrifice,

I think you are confused here. Catholics do not believe that Mary saves us. We know that Jesus is our Lord and Savior and that His sacrifice and Resurrection is our hope of Salvation. Mary being sinless and pure and holy is the only logical conclusion since Jesus was sinless, pure and holy and nothing unclean or impure or unholy or sinful can be apart of Jesus.

because no one could save themselves by their own merrit. That's the core of our Christain beliefs.

Catholics believe that too. We believe that Mary was purified and made holy and was saved by Jesus. We believe that God is not limited by our own time table and that God destined Mary to have Jesus and thus she was without sin based on the Sacrifice and Resurrection of Jesus.

I'm not really good at explaining the Catholic teaching on this too well. But I do think that Protestants are confused when it comes to Mary Immaculate birth.

I hope other Catholics will help me out here.

 

[D'Ann]

As much as I applaud your effort, that is a bad argument. The protestant resaponse to that statement would be that for Mary to be sinless Mary's mother would have to be sinlees too, and her mother too, and.. ..well, you get the idea.

It is best to look at EXACTLY what Pope Pius IX pronounced and defined:

"....in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."

The key here is that the Immaculate Conception was a grace of God, and was meritted by "the merits of Jesus Christ."

Thank you. That is what I was trying to say, but I'm sooo not good at sharing our faith.

God Bless You and Yours

 

[BreadAlone]

Very true. But can God touch anything that is unholy or unpure? What do the Scriptures say about this?

Jesus is also 100% Human, as you say below:

Also, even though, Jesus is Divine, he was made and produced and created as a human in Mary's womb. Could Jesus who is sinless, pure and holy be created in a sinful, unholy and unpure vessel?

Why not? As your fellow Catholic says, it stands to reason then that Mary's mother would have to be sinless, SO WOULD their parents.

I think you are confused here. Catholics do not believe that Mary saves us. We know that Jesus is our Lord and Savior and that His sacrifice and Resurrection is our hope of Salvation.

While YOU may not believe that, many, (I use that term loosely, as I believe it's a vast majority) of your fellow Catholics do. Co-redemptrix sound familiar?

Mary being sinless and pure and holy is the only logical conclusion since Jesus was sinless, pure and holy and nothing unclean or impure or unholy or sinful can be apart of Jesus.

As stated above, then so would Mary's parent's parent's etc. etc. back to Adam and Eve.

Catholics believe that too. We believe that Mary was purified and made holy and was saved by Jesus. We believe that God is not limited by our own time table and that God destined Mary to have Jesus and thus she was without sin based on the Sacrifice and Resurrection of Jesus.

Then why didn't God make everyone sinless "based on the Sacrifice and Resurrection of Jesus." Does something make Mary more precious to God than the rest of us, his Saints? I think that sounds a little unscriptural, don't you?

I'm not really good at explaining the Catholic teaching on this too well. But I do think that Protestants are confused when it comes to Mary Immaculate birth.

Now please don't take this the wrong way, but I think that often times many Roman Catholics misunderstand a LOT of their Churches own teachings.

 

[katholikos]

... I think that often times many Roman Catholics misunderstand a LOT of their Churches own teachings.

Boy, it pains me to agree with that statement. And I could write a book on the reasons why that is so.

 

[BreadAlone]

Boy, it pains me to agree with that statement. And I could write a book on the reasons why that is so.

What!? A CATHOLIC AGREES with ME..!?

 

[katholikos]

What!? A CATHOLIC AGREES with ME..!?

Yes. In my humble opinion: When Catholicism was the only religion of so many countries for so many centuries, it became "incultrated". It was not something so much "learned" as it was "lived". If you were, say, Italian, you were Catholic. Period. There was no need for commoners to study, let alone study how to defend it against other faiths.

Then came the immagrants to America. First they stayed in secluded communities, not interacting with outsiders so much (hence all the Catholic schools). But when the next generation began to "melt" with the rest of society, they found themselves in a culture of many competing sects where they needed to defend their faith, but were utterly un-prepaired to do so. Since their parents and grandparents had no need to do so - having grown up in cultures where Catholicism was not challenged - they did not have the ability to do so, and could not pass that ability on to their children. Lack of study is almost part of Catholic culture itself. The Church is our teacher, you see, and She teaches us the things we need to know. Unfortunately, that way does not work well in a society with so many challenges to our ideas, and the Church never taught earlier Catholics how to defend their faith against other faiths. (Plus the fact that previous generations from the "old countries" we largely ill-educated.)

Its just part of being Catholic, unfortunately, that you don't bother to study. This makes the Catholic Joe-Sixpack an easy target. However, that is changing. I think that in 50 or 60 years, young Catholics will not be so easily bowled over by the Jack Chicks of this world.

 

[BreadAlone]

You think that it is that recent? It seems to me that people, for example, in South America are also ill-informed, ESPECIALLY when it comes to their Marian and Saint Theology (not that Catholics in other places don't do this also, but it's more prevelant there.)

Yes. In my humble opinion: When Catholicism was the only religion of so many countries for so many centuries, it became "incultrated". It was not something so much "learned" as it was "lived". If you were, say, Italian, you were Catholic. Period. There was no need for commoners to study, let alone study how to defend it against other faiths.

Then came the immagrants to America. First they stayed in secluded communities, not interacting with outsiders so much (hence all the Catholic schools). But when the next generation began to "melt" with the rest of society, they found themselves in a culture of many competing sects where they needed to defend their faith, but were utterly un-prepaired to do so. Since their parents and grandparents had no need to do so - having grown up in cultures where Catholicism was not challenged - they did not have the ability to do so, and could not pass that ability on to their children. Lack of study is almost part of Catholic culture itself. The Church is our teacher, you see, and She teaches us the things we need to know. Unfortunately, that way does not work well in a society with so many challenges to our ideas, and the Church never taught earlier Catholics how to defend their faith against other faiths. (Plus the fact that previous generations from the "old countries" we largely ill-educated.)

Its just part of being Catholic, unfortunately, that you don't bother to study. This makes the Catholic Joe-Sixpack an easy target. However, that is changing. I think that in 50 or 60 years, young Catholics will not be so easily bowled over by the Jack Chicks of this world.

 

[D'Ann]

Why not? As your fellow Catholic says, it stands to reason then that Mary's mother would have to be sinless, SO WOULD their parents.

Only Mary was meant to be the Lord's mother and only Mary was granted this grace due to her body carrying our Lord and that is why Mary is called blessed by Elizabeth in Matthews.

While YOU may not believe that, many, (I use that term loosely, as I believe it's a vast majority) of your fellow Catholics do. Co-redemptrix sound familiar?

I believe that many Catholics struggle with explaining the Co-redemptrix teaching. FYI: Co-redemptrix teaching is not included in the Catholic "Doctrine/Dogma".

Even those who teach Co-redemptrix know that Mary points to Jesus and only Jesus saves us...

I'll try to explain my understanding on the teaching of Co-redemptrix...

Basically, we all are co-redeemers of each others' faiths. Why? or How?

Because we pray for one another, we reach out to one another and we confirm the Christian faith in Christ. We confirm to each other that Christ is Lord. That Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.

Mary "confirms" that Jesus is our Lord. She points us to Jesus. I'm sure that I'm not doing a good job explaining this and my only excuse is that I'm not an apologist and that is why I stay away from this forum. But at the same time, I have to keep trying to learn how to share and explain my faith.

As stated above, then so would Mary's parent's parent's etc. etc. back to Adam and Eve.

As Adam and Eve sinned in the garden and thus we inherited the sinful nature, Mary who was sinless is like the second Eve who chose to obey God and not to give into temptation. I know that I have some really good writings on this one. I'll dig them up. I think you will enjoy and appreciate them.

Then why didn't God make everyone sinless "based on the Sacrifice and Resurrection of Jesus." Does something make Mary more precious to God than the rest of us, his Saints? I think that sounds a little unscriptural, don't you?

Because none of us is the actual mother of Christ. Mary is our Lord's mother and by carrying the Lord in her womb, that does make her blessed and full of grace... don't you think?

Now please don't take this the wrong way, but I think that often times many Roman Catholics misunderstand a LOT of their Churches own teachings.

BreadAlone,

I'm not an apologist. I know my faith quite well, my problem is that I'm not good with teaching my faith, but make no mistake about it, I know my faith and my faith is very much in my heart. And I guess, you are right, there are some Catholics who do misunderstand their Catholic faith. But the ones who post in GT usually do know the Catholic faith and are very strong and good in sharing the Catholic faith.

God's Peace

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thank you. Sounds like we receive the very life of Christ (God). I dont see the word favor anywhere.




pax

I think I get it now. Mary was full of grace (God's favor) but those mentioned in John 1:16 don't receive God's favor, although it is stated to be grace (the same Greek word used in Luke 1:28). So us poor mortals only are filled with grace (charis) but Mary is filled with favor (charis).