Peanut Gallery: The Immaculate conception of Mary!

[Uphill Battle]

As I said, you are too simplistic. Thats like saying that because the Old Testament said the Messiah would be named "Emmanual" that Jesus could not be the Messiah because his name is not Emmanual.

Thats the kind of ridiculous conclusions you come to when you read scriptures like a Fundie - too literally.

In fact, that literal reading is making you take Genesis 1 & 2 word-for-word literally too, which no serious student of scripture does. And that is also skewing your understanding of "Adam and Eve."

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

 

[katholikos]

Luke 1:46-48
46And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.

The Virgin Mary had a savior therefore she was in need of a savior. All of us sinners are.

And that fits in perfectly with what Pope Pius IX said when he said "in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race." Read it again, and you'll see that His Holiness makes it plain and clear that this is a grace of God and by virtue of Christ's merits:

"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

And that fits in perfectly with what Pope Pius IX said when he said "in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race." Read it again, and you'll see that His Holiness makes it plain and clear that this is a grace of God and by virtue of Christ's merits:

"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."

ANYONE can say ANYTHING.
Anyone can quote it.
Doesn't make it true.
In this case, he didn't even attempt to substantiate his view.
Among Catholics, he doesn't have to.
You MUST accept whatever it is, with docility and quiet submission
Cuz that's what he requires of you (makes life easy for him).

Friend, we all know that some accept the DOGMA of Mary Was Conceived Immaculately, they think it's true.
Millions believe in alien abductions and Big Foot, too.
That the one teaching it says, "I think it's true" isn't substantiation that it's true.
Friend, what do you have that documents that this new, unique DOGMA of the singular, particular Catholic Church is dogmatically True?
Finding 5 people (or whatever) who share your opinion is entirely and completely irrelevant and moot.

In the Catholic Church (but exclusive to it), it is now DOGMA - meaning it is the highest level of truth and importance. It thus not only requires the highest level of documentation BUT should be the easiest and most obvious to document. But what you have revealed SO well is........ Well, you know.






.

 

[D'Ann]

Luke 1:46-48
46And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.

The Virgin Mary had a savior therefore she was in need of a savior. All of us sinners are.

Thank you Jesus!!!!

Amen. Mary most certainly needed a savior. What Catholics believe is that God in an unknown mysterious way applied the grace from Jesus death and resurrection to Mary before her birth because it was predestined that Mary would be His mother... God is not subjected or limited to our own space and time table and so yes, Jesus was her Savior and Lord too. Remeber God is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending (and present too).

I need to hopefully graciously leave the thread. I've said all that I know about this subject and I really don't believe in debating what people believe. I believe that the Holy Spirit leads us all (Christians) to the right path and that we all are Christians who call on Jesus to save us from our sins and accept that forgiveness and are Baptised in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

God's Peace

 

[katholikos]

ANYONE can say ANYTHING.

Including you. Given the choice, I hope you're not insulted if I go with the opinion of the Successor of of Saint Peter instead of yours.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I believe that the Holy Spirit leads us all (Christians) to the right path

But of the 33,000 denominations in the world that Catholics insist exist, only ONE believes that Mary (specificly) was conceived immaculately... Is the Holy Spirit leading the 29,999 others to a different Dogma?




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[CaliforniaJosiah]

Including you. Given the choice, I hope you're not insulted if I go with the opinion of the Successor of of Saint Peter instead of yours.

As you know, I don't have any dogma about Mary's sex life after Jesus was born.
As you know, I don't even have a personal opinion.
No Protestant denomination known to me does.
You do.
You have DOGMA on this.
What is the substantiation for this issue of highest importance and greatest certainty?
What is your documentation for the dogmatic fact that Mary did not have sex after Jesus was born?





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[katholikos]

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.
. come on man...
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[CaliforniaJosiah]

.

.
. come on man...

No, It's YOUR dogma, not mine.
YOU need to come on.
The "ball" is entirely and exclusively in your court.




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[Annolennar]

This thread is amusing.

The formal debate is pretty interesting though.

 

[lionroar0]

As you know, I don't have any dogma about Mary's sex life after Jesus was born.
As you know, I don't even have a personal opinion.
No Protestant denomination known to me does.
You do.
You have DOGMA on this.
What is the substantiation for this issue of highest importance and greatest certainty?
What is your documentation for the dogmatic fact that Mary did not have sex after Jesus was born?

.

Then same as yours concerning the resurrection.

Peace

 

[MamaZ]

Then same as yours concerning the resurrection.

Peace

Really? So it is written somewhere in the pages of scripture somewhere where there were eyewitnesses to this so called fact?

 

[katholikos]

Really? So it is written somewhere in the pages of scripture somewhere where there were eyewitnesses to this so called fact?

Is it written somewhere in the pages of scripture that everything must be written somewhere in the pages of scripture? If you believe that everything must be in the Bible, then show me IN THE BIBLE where it says that everything must be in the Bible....

....and do not quote 2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness", because that verse does NOT say that everything MUST be in the Bible. It just says that the Bible is inspired and profitable for teaching.

 

[lionroar0]

Really? So it is written somewhere in the pages of scripture somewhere where there were eyewitnesses to this so called fact?

No there isn't.

Just as there was no biblical eye witness to the resurrection.

Peace

 

[MamaZ]

well since Jesus tells us that Gods word is His truth I would suggest that what it is we believe in as Gods Children should be contained in The scriptures.

 

[lionroar0]

well since Jesus tells us that Gods word is His truth I would suggest that what it is we believe in as Gods Children should be contained in The scriptures.

Yeah but it does not say that all Truth is in the Bible.

Maybe if you could post the verses of the eyewitness to the resurrection.

Peace

 

[Uphill Battle]

oh! call the private investigators! We have eyewitnesses to the death of Christ, and eyewitnesses to him being alive shortly after!

not sure how we'll figure it out without Inspector Clousseau on the case.

come now, let's be reasonable, it is not the same thing.

(nor, should an "eyewitness" account be absolutely neccessary. I think it's kind of silly to ask for an eyewitness account to the PV of Mary... someone would have to watch her 24/7. eww.

the driving point is we have a biblical record that indicates the ressurection. We have no such record of the Marian dogmas. Only scriptures that bear a vague connection, if you already believe the dogmas to begin with.

 

[katholikos]

well since Jesus tells us that Gods word is His truth I would suggest that what it is we believe in as Gods Children should be contained in The scriptures.

The flaw with that is in thinking that the total Word of God is in the Bible. Its is not.

Jesus is the Word!! John 1:14: "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" To reduce the "Word" down to a book is unBiblical. Besides, the Bible itself says that not everything is in the Bible: "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written" (John 21:25).

So I ask again: If you believe that everything must be in the Bible, then can you show me IN THE BIBLE where it says that everything must be in the Bible?

(And I remind you: Do not quote 2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness", because that verse does NOT say that everything MUST be in the Bible. It just says that the Bible is inspired and profitable for teaching.)

Yeah but it does not say that all Truth is in the Bible....

You're right. They just don't get it.

 

[MamaZ]

The flaw with that is in thinking that the total Word of God is in the Bible. Its is not.

Jesus is the Word!! John 1:14: "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" To reduce the "Word" down to a book is unBiblical. Besides, the Bible itself says that not everything is in the Bible: "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written" (John 21:25).

So I ask again: If you believe that everything must be in the Bible, then can you show me IN THE BIBLE where it says that everything must be in the Bible?

(And I remind you: Do not quote 2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness", because that verse does NOT say that everything MUST be in the Bible. It just says that the Bible is inspired and profitable for teaching.)




You're right. They just don't get it.

Show me where Jesus directed anyone other than to it is written. Where at all are we directed by Jesus to uphold any tradtions that would add to or take away from the Prophecy of scripture. He always directed us by saying to us it is written. Or you err not knowing the scripture.

 

[katholikos]

The fact that you could not answer my question is quite revealing. In fact, you cannot show me IN THE BIBLE where it says that everything must be in the Bible, because it just ain't there.