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Jesus4Madrid

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I've never been particularly interested in "dogma"--probably a bias after listening to too many scholastic Roman Catholics. I did Google "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology" and came up with a surprising number of texts. Perhaps they are using "dogmatic" to mean "systematic".

If dogma implies that which all Orthodox should believe in order to consider themselves Orthodox, then the Councils would be a good source. Yet a lot of heterodox Christians also claim to accept the Councils. I wonder, thus, if there are other dogma that Orthodox must believe to be distinctly Orthodox.

The Dormition, for example is not dogma. Yet we have a fast to celebrate it. Must we believe it?
 
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Barky

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How Wittgensteinian/Kantian of you Macarius. I know your head is buried deeply in theology, but have you read any late Wittgenstein? There's a basic skeleton of his thought here, though the particulars fall out of place.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I just want to say you've got my attention. And I would ask questions, but I'm sure it's impossible to provide a reader's digest version of what you're describing here, since I'm sure it represented a lot of time and work.

So I'll satisfy myself with a single question ... has the text of the liturgy undergone so much change itself? I might at least be able to consider some parts of that much, if you're speaking about that. I'd be extremely interested ...

Thank you.
 
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rusmeister

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This is a late response to post #20 that I wrote last month, and had thought to expand to engage all points (as they CAN be engaged). Because these things are still worth saying, I'm putting them up for the peanut gallery.

I'll add to them, off the bat, that if we cannot fix a measure of static understanding to words, then we simply cannot communicate at all. If all we are doing is "interpreting" (differently) then we can't possibly understand each other or have any idea what anyone else means by any words they say. It is only by convention, the Latin for "coming together", by agreeing on static meaning, that we can understand anything. It is only when we agree that "milk" is the white liquid that comes from a cow that we can begin to understand each other. If we miss that obvious fact and get caught up in the fact that milk can be made low-fat or chocolate or into dairy products by human intervention, or go sour by mere passage of time, as I think Mac's idea does, then we might as well abandon language altogether as a vehicle exclusively for mis-communication.

Only none of us thinks we should do that.

*opens a Shock Top, grabs mozzarella sticks and wonders if he could get college credit from reading Mac's posts *

I got my Ph.d. from reading his last post alone!


Indeed, that IS the state of modern education today. In short, they commit intellectual suicide, opting for pluralism and its effective denial of objective truth (regarding THE Truth), and wind up not being able to say that anything is really true. In the end, even the Incarnation and Resurrection become merely "personal interpretations". I am all for genuine education; I do not think true education is truly to be found in the so-called institutions of higher learning.

I consider myself lucky I stopped at a Master's Degree, and glad that I didn't go on to a PhD, whichI now believe would have failed to lead me to a coherent cosmic philosophy, just as my MA failed to teach me what was really important in literature.

Now, thanks to having found real teachers grounded in tradition, reason, logic, and common sense rather than modern philosophy, I have no trouble reading Mac. It's quite easy. I see the ideas, and I see through them to what is behind them. Abd what is behind them is pluralist relativism, the enemy of the Orthodox Faith and the deadly heresy of our time, that there IS no ultimate truth, that all words, ideas, are malleable and subjective. Of COURSE I may imagine an oak whereas a Russian is liable to imagine a birch tree if someone says "tree". But there is no doubt that there is something common to all trees that remains constant and at the heart of what we understand.

It is true that "hello" might be interpreted differently because I say it with a friendly, or sarcastic tone. But the base idea of "hello" is constant and universal, as a greeting between two sentient beings.

On the varying interpretations of the Trinity, it is obvious to me that men who enjoy exercising their reason try to comprehend as far as they can what is ultimately the Mystery of mysteries, and that there are practical limits to what we can understand about It, but that does not mean that the idea has no ultimate meaning about which either Iranaeus, or Gregory of Nyssa, or both, may be off. But the Creed is not off, for it is not the expression of one ECF here or there, but what all agree on.

What can be said about those varying interpretations is that people may have used different hermeneutics to understand given ideas, but that by no means means that therefore we can understand nothing with certainty, because they lived in a different age, etc etc. And that's ultimately what you mean, Mac, in this talk of our having to "re-envision" the Faith.

There is nothing new under the sun. Nothing that we need to "re-envision". That MY knowledge is limited is given. That I will "envision" ANYTHING new for the Church is doubtful in the extreme and sure to lead me into heresy.

Frankly, your idea of pluralism can be used to introduce literally ANY teaching into the Church. You can introduce homosexual bishops tomorrow and pluralist unity with Rome the day after tomorrow, and Liturgical dance the day after tomorrow, all on the basis of this view of yours, and your heart will be singing with joy... But it will be prelest.

And it leaves you with no real basis to reject any teaching you actually think wrong. People can take your words and use them to defend ideas they think heinous. Indeed, my own views, under your pluralism, must be accepted as a form of diversity, and you wind up in self-contradiction by both accepting my views - which deny yours - and by rejecting them in spite of your own embracing of pluralism.

Pluralism really IS a heresy, Mac, and NOT because Florovsky or any "neo-patristic" or whatever school of thought says so, but because pluralism is fundamentally, at its roots and foundations, about the denial of Truth, it is an eternal self-ontradiction, proclaiming a "truth" that "there is no truth". Trying to bring it into Orthodoxy is, whether you realize it or not, a denial of Orthodoxy.

I think there IS room for diversity and multiculturalism within Orthodoxy (and I love, for example, that we have icons of African and Asian saints that I may venerate, as it affirms that our Faith is for all, not just whites and Middle Easterners), but not for pluralism in doctrine.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Barky

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I want to push here because this is a philosophical claim which is too readily made. It is very easy to show that our sentences are vague, that vagueness is is a reality of language. Once this point is shown, you have two mutually exclusive claims left: either we speak wrongly all the time, or words do not have standard meaning.

If you want examples I can show that our sentences are vague (which I believe), I can show you examples that are commonly used by philosophers, or, if you are interested, I can point you to a paper written by Searle on the topic.

Now, I am NOT saying that truth goes out the window once this premise is accepted. I am, however, wanting to point out that interpretation is a basic reality of understanding any written word or speech. There is no such thing as a "bare reading" of any text whatsoever (or conversation for that matter). Each sentence is a product of context, whether the context at large (cultural, etc) and/or the context of the discussion at hand. This is why we so often battle fundamentalists on taking things out of context. This is because context necessarily changes the nature of the idea or concept being communicated.

From here, there are other directions to go. Macarius' claim, as I understand it, deals with some of the ideas I just presented. However, I am interested in what he has to say about Truth on top of his claims of interpretation and the like. It is one thing to say we must interpret contextually, it is another to say relativism is it's end.
 
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rusmeister

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Hi, Barky. I think vagueness IS a reality we meet in language. But it is simply fallacy to say that, because many, even most people speak vaguely, that therefore precision in language is impossible, or because there is a certain context (which really only means that which accompanies the text, both other text and assumptions behind words and thoughts) that that context cannot be shared by readers in different points in space and time.

I do say relativism is Macarius's end, and I say he can deny it until he's blue in the face, but that's what I see. A person can say in long sentences why no one ought ever go to war for any reason AND deny being a pacifist - but I'm still going to see a pacifist. But that's another post.

I'm just back from a long drive from a distant camping trip, and have a busy day tomorrow, so likely won't say much for the next 24 hrs.
 
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Hey Mac,

Could you elaborate and clarify what you mean? What out-of-context proof-texting has Father Seraphim done to try to lead to conclusions that are synthetic? I've only read a small bit of Father Seraphim Rose really, just "The Soul after Death" so far. Scary stuff. But from what I could read, seems like he quoted the Fathers' accounts and sayings of saints. It seemed in context and rational, not the ravings of a lunatic as some try to paint him. He seems like a hardcore guy, but my jury is still out on him really. Could you elaborate please?

 
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Macarius

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Oh I wasn't saying that about Fr Seraphim. I'd have to read him more carefully before saying that, though my intuition says he probably does it. I was more saying it for Pomazansky - a theologian whose work Fr Seraphim rather liked. Pomazansky definitely uses a questionable methodology in his rather expansive and somewhat audaciously titled "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology."

So, if you've an interest in my remark with respect to Pomazansky I can supply additional info, but I can't do the same for Fr Seraphim - I just haven't had the time to read him closely enough for me to make that claim.
 
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Macarius

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Pluralism does not equate to relativism. We have pluralism all the time in the church, simply from having a plurality of finite human beings belonging to the same church. We have pluralism in the four Gospels, which present distinctive views of the same Christ. We have pluralism in iconography, which (like all art and words) depict Christ in various styles and with various features; it is literally impossible for Christ to look like every one of the Orthodox icons painted of him, yet they are all True. We have pluralism in the Old Testament between the Deuteronomic History (Samuel-Kings) and the Chronicles. We have pluralism between Sts. Peter and Paul and James. Chalcedon was an attempt to preserve pluralism in the Church by including Sts. Leo and Cyril in the same formulae. We permitted, for centuries I might add, a significant block of the Church to recite the filiqoue in their creed while remaining in communion - that was pluralism of the highest order given the importance of the doctrine. We didn't have a real problem with it until filioquists began operating as dogmatists - trying to impose the filioque on us and our mission fields. Before that, pluralism was the norm and was tolerated.

But none of that would make the Church "relativistic." So you can shout "relativist" at me until you, likewise, are blue in the face, and it will still remain a straw-man fallacy and an intentional misreading of what I've said.

I was even abundantly clear about the line between being "in" and "out" of the Church historically: do we operate on the same canon - the same rule of Christ Crucified and Risen - which is THE interpretive framework.

I guess if I wanted to push your position to an extreme the way you have attempted with mine, I would accuse your desire to avoid "interpretation" as an attempt to be as omniscient as God Himself since only God is above all and beyond all and therefore capable of seeing the whole. Our finitude means that, inevitably, we have incomplete information and therefore must engage in "interpretation" - given our fallability, that means we must tolerate a degree of pluralism or live in a church comprised only of our lonely self.

I don't think you mean that - I think that would be unfair to you - so I do think that you (like me) have some sense of allowable pluralism, and that doesn't make you any more of a relativist than I am - and I am emphatically not a relativist. There is ONE Truth - that Truth is Christ.

However, I will point out that your desire to have words contain static meaning puts you dangerously close to the real heresy of Eunomianism. If you like, I can even post significant (e.g. pages) of refutation of these very assertions from the words of our most Theological saints: the Cappadocians, who authored the very Creed you would claim I am watering down through relativism.
 
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gotcha

 
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Gxg (G²)

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In your academic studies, would you have any authors or speakers on the issue you'd recommend - in regards to showing the nature of pluralism?
 
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