PCE and Double Predestination...

[TedT]

The entire human race [...] deserves eternal condemnation.

Now correct me upon your own individual conviction; if you do indeed understand that you are entitled to God's wrath!

Contradicts Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. On earth, sinful believers (who are sown here) are never condemned and those who never believe are condemned already since...when? Since their NON-ELECTION!

 

[TedT]

And predestination outside of calvinism teaches God predestined people, not individuals.

...OR predestination can be seen to be the prediction of people achieving the fulfillment of their free will decision to put their faith in HIM, not the cause of their putting their faith in HIM by HIS grace.

Election was HIS promise to those who would put their faith in HIM to be saved from all sin.

Reprobation was HIS response to those who refused to put their faith in HIM when they chose by their free will to rebuke HIM as a liar and a false god driven by an evil megalomania, the unforgivable sin.

Predestination is the promise, not the cause, that everyone will get the life they chose when they made their faith based (their unproven hopes) decisions about their eternal relationship with YHWH.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

...OR predestination can be seen to be a promised prediction of people achieving the fulfillment of their free will decision to put their faith in HIM, not the cause of their putting their faith in HIM by HIS grace.

I like that Ted !

 

[Der Alte]

Matthew 5:37
And do tell; how is it that people being within time, affects decisions God made outside of time?
Through the context of the rest of Scripture.

Meaningless generalities which do not address anything typical of all false religious groups.

 

[The Righterzpen]

How are believers entitled to Gods wrath ? That falls on unbelievers. Any more fallacious arguments ?

And predestination outside of calvinism teaches God predestined people, not individuals. The church as in believers or Israel as a people/nation.

hope this helps !!!

Why is it necessary for sin to be atoned for?

If sin was atoned for in the context of the entire nation of Israel; why were there those who perished in the wilderness because of unbelief? (Hebrews 3) (Numbers 14:29)

Not all "the church" who claim to be Christians are redeemed. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Individuals are predestine to election; not nations.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Meaningless generalities which do not address anything typical of all false religious groups.

So in other words; you can't answer the question.

Just like the "woke left"; can't answer so you resort to name calling.

Yep! You are all too transparent!

 

[The Righterzpen]

Double predestination in my humble opinion makes no sense! On the other hand predestination can be biblically proven. Why would it be necessary for God to predestine some to destruction, since before creation He knows every human is destined to be destroyed? Isn't that why God needed to predestine a people for Himself in the first place?

"Double predestination" is a straw man thrown out by those who hate the doctrine of election. They want to believe that some act of their will "inspired" God to save them.

Obviously you understand that God does not "predestine" anyone to the Lake of Fire. He doesn't have to, because on account of the fall and their sin; that is their default standing before God.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Contradicts Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. On earth, sinful believers (who are sown here) are never condemned and those who never believe are condemned already since...when? Since their NON-ELECTION!

How is it they come to believe and why are they not condemned? What did Jesus accomplish? What was the point of the incarnation? What does it mean that Jesus paid for sin?

 

[The Righterzpen]

...OR predestination can be seen to be the prediction of people achieving the fulfillment of their free will decision to put their faith in HIM, not the cause of their putting their faith in HIM by HIS grace.

Election was HIS promise to those who would put their faith in HIM to be saved from all sin.

Reprobation was HIS response to those who refused to put their faith in HIM when they chose by their free will to rebuke HIM as a liar and a false god driven by an evil megalomania, the unforgivable sin.

Predestination is the promise, not the cause, that everyone will get the life they chose when they made their faith based (their unproven hopes) decisions about their eternal relationship with YHWH.

Faith is a gift from God:
1 Samuel 26:23
Romans 12:3,
Galatians 2:16
Galatians 2:20
Galatians 3:2
Galatians 3:5
Galatians 3:22
Ephesians 3:12
Philippians 3:9
Colossians 2;12
Jude 3
1 Thessalonians 1:3

Faith is a work:
2 Thessalonians 1:11

 

[The Righterzpen]

This is Calvinism 101 and I taught this for over 4 decades and its wrong.

How how very interesting! You used to be a "Calvinist".

Galatians 5:3-5

 

[TedT]

Obviously you understand that God does not "predestine" anyone to the Lake of Fire. He doesn't have to, because on account of the fall and their sin; that is their default standing before God.

But unless you subscribe to our pre-election existence, you believe that HE predestined some to election and some to reprobation before they existed, ie, before they sinned and, if I remember right, you also claim no sin in their life affected HIS choice of them in election nor probation was considered anyway!! Didn't I point this out already???

You contradict yourself so blatantly!!! ?:?

 

[The Righterzpen]

But unless you subscribe to our pre-election existence, you believe that HE predestined some to election and some to reprobation before they existed, ie, before they sinned and, if I remember right, you also claim no sin in their life affected HIS choice of them in election nor probation was considered anyway!! Didn't I point this out already???

You contradict yourself so blatantly!!! ?:?

You contradict me blatantly.
You also don't pay attention to what I actually wrote!

Scripture declares the elect are predestine to election before the foundations of the world. (Do you want the verses again?) And yes, God's election of them is despite that they are fallen sinners (Just like you are a fallen sinner!)

The non-elect are left to the natural consequence of their own sin. (Same as the elect would be if they weren't atoned for.)

 

[Der Alte]

So in other words; you can't answer the question.
Just like the "woke left"; can't answer so you resort to name calling.
Yep! You are all too transparent!

I'm not here to play 20 questions. I didn't do any name calling OTOH you did.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

How how very interesting! You used to be a "Calvinist".

Galatians 5:3-5

Calvinism is not the gospel or salvation , Christ is snd I’m born again . So much for being severed. If anything tulip is a false gospel .

next

 

[The Righterzpen]

I'm not here to play 20 questions. I didn't do any name calling OTOH you did.

Calvinism is not the gospel or salvation , Christ is snd I’m born again . So much for being severed. If anything tulip is a false gospel .

OK kids; it's been fun. I'm off to more constructive conversations!

 

[TedT]

Faith is a gift from God:

Faith IN A SINNER!!! is a gift from GOD!!! Not faith from a free will decision!

Angels are elect, 1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels.
and
Angels are holy:
Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the HOLY angels. ...and if you know any way for a person to become holy or elect without FAITH then let's hear your trumpet!!!

The angels are holy and elect by their free will decision to put their faith in YHWH as their GOD and saviour, PERIOD! No grace necessary or it would destroy the free will nature of their decision. Only if an elect lost his faith by sinning (becoming a sheep gone astray into sin) is grace necessary to break his enslavement to sin and restore him to fath.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Faith IN A SINNER!!! is a gift from GOD!!! Not faith from a free will decision!

Angels are elect, 1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels.
and
Angels are holy:
Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the HOLY angels. ...and if you know any way for a person to become holy or elect without FAITH then let's hear your trumpet!!!

The angels are holy and elect by their free will decision to put their faith in YHWH as their GOD and saviour, PERIOD! No grace necessary or it would destroy the free will nature of their decision. Only if an elect lost his faith by sinning (becoming a sheep gone astray into sin) is grace necessary to break his enslavement to sin and restore him to fath.

Already talked about this. Angels are not part of the redemption plan. Jesus did not take on the nature of angels, nor did he pay for the sin of disobedient angels.

Humans can only be redeemed if their sin is paid for. That's the purpose of the atonement. (I.E. why Jesus died.) By nature, all the elect humans are sinners because of the fall. (You are a sinner; as much as you don't want to believe / admit this; you are a sinner.)

Consequently humans do not have a "free will". Human will is encumbered by both the fall and the individual's sin. (Thus why atonement is an individual thing.) Fallen sinners can not muster faith in and of themselves. They have to be "quickened" (made alive) by the Holy Spirit. That is "regeneration". Regeneration happens because of atonement for sin. Who was to be atoned for was decided by God prior to time beginning. That's called "election". Election is not based on anything the human did. It's solely based on who God chose to save.

If you are one of the elect; you've won the greatest "lottery" in the cosmos!

May He have mercy on your soul fallen sinner!

Been fun; I'm off to more productive conversations!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Already talked about this. Angels are not part of the redemption plan. Jesus did not take on the nature of angels, nor did he pay for the sin of disobedient angels.

Humans can only be redeemed if their sin is paid for. That's the purpose of the atonement. (I.E. why Jesus died.) By nature, all the elect humans are sinners because of the fall. (You are a sinner; as much as you don't want to believe / admit this; you are a sinner.)

Consequently humans do not have a "free will". Human will is encumbered by both the fall and the individual's sin. (Thus why atonement is an individual thing.) Fallen sinners can not muster faith in and of themselves. They have to be "quickened" (made alive) by the Holy Spirit. That is "regeneration". Regeneration happens because of atonement for sin. Who was to be atoned for was decided by God prior to time beginning. That's called "election". Election is not based on anything the human did. It's solely based on who God chose to save.

If you are one of the elect; you've won the greatest "lottery" in the cosmos!

May He have mercy on your soul fallen sinner!

Been fun; I'm off to more productive conversations!

it sure would be nice for some scripture to substantiate your claims and assumptions in your post.

 

[The Righterzpen]

it sure would be nice for some scripture to substantiate your claims and assumptions in your post.

You want more Scripture; other than what was already posted; OK! Here ya go! LOL

Happy reading!

Basics of Salvation
(these aspects of Godliness are given to a person by God and do not originate with any individual's natural inclinations)

Numbers given to words are from the Strong's Concordance
(O.T.) - Old Testament, (O.S.C.) - only saved can,
(N.T.) ~ New Testament
(S.R.W.) ~ same root word, (T.) - translated as

BELIEF - (S.R.W. as faith) (NT) 1 Peter 1:21
BORN OF THE LIGHT - John 1:4 John 1:12-13
CHOSEN - (T. choose) John 15:16
FAITH - 1 Samuel 26:23, Romans 12:3, Galatians 2:16-20, Galatians 3:2, Galatians 3:5 Galatians 3:22, Ephesians 3:12, Philippians 3:9, Colossians 2:12, Jude 3, 1 Thessalonians 1:3 (faith is a work) 2 Thessalonians 1:11
FEAR OF GOD - Psalm 130:4, Psalm 34:11, Malachi 3:5, Malachi 2:5, Jeremiah 32: 40, (O.S.C.) Jeremiah 44:10, Romans 3:10-18
FORGIVENESS - 2 Corinthians 2:7-10, Mark 2:7, Luke 5:21
FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT - Proverbs 8:19
GENEROSITY- (T. caring) 2 Corinthians 8:16
GENTLENESS - 2 Corinthians 10:1, Psalms 18:35
GODLY - 2 Peter 1:3
HEALING - Psalm 147:3, Malachi 4:2, Exodus 15:26,
Isaiah 61:1 (spiritual healing)
HONESTY - Matthew 7:17, Luke 8:19, (not in O.T.) (S.R.W. as goodness)
HUMILITY - Deuteronomy 8:2-3, Deuteronomy 8:16, 2 Chronicles 2:21, Isaiah 2:7+, Isaiah 5:13
JOY - Romans 15:13, Psalm 16:11, Psalm 126:5, Ecclesiastes 2: 26, Ezekiel 6:22
LONG-SUFFERING - (S.R.W. Patients) Galatians 5:22
MEEKNESS- Zep 2:3, 2 Cor 10:1
NOT WALKING AFTER THE FLESH - Ephesians 2:5
OBEDIENCE - I John 5:1-3, Romans 5:19, Romans 6:16, Ephesians 2:10
PATIENTS - Romans 15:4-5, Colossians10-12, Revelation 1:9
PEACE - Philippians 7, Philippians 9, 2 Thessalonians 3:16, John 14:26, John 16:3
PRAISE - Isaiah 38:17+, Isaiah 61:11-13, (O.S.C.) Proverbs 28:4, Psalm 145:10, Psalm 115:17
PRAYER - Romans 8:15, Romans 8:26-27, Romans 8:34 & 26, Hebrews 7:5
QUICKENED - Ephesians 2:1, Ephesians 2:5, Psalm 80:18, John 5:21, John 6:63
REPENTANCE - Romans 2:4, Acts 5:31, Jeremiah 31:17-19
RIGHTEOUSNESS - 2 Peter 1:1, 2 Corinthians 9:9-10
SALVATION - Romans 6:23
TEMPERANCE - Galatians 5:22
(definition found in 1 Corinthians 7:9)
THANKSGIVING - Hebrews 13:5, I Corinthians 14:16, 2 Corinthians 9:9-11, (O.S.C.) Jeremiah 30:18-19, Isaiah 51:3
TRUST - Psalm 22:9
TRUTH - John 1:17
TURNING - Psalm 85:4, Jeremiah 31:18
WILL - Matthew 8:2-3, I Corinthians 1:1, 1 Corinthians 11:27, Luke 10:22, John 5:21, John 6:37, Romans 9:16-18, Philippians 2:13, I Corinthians 1:1, Jeremiah 30:21-22
WISDOM - Proverbs 2:6, Proverbs 8: 14, Proverbs 14: 6,
(definition of Proverbs 8:14), Proverbs 9:10
WORKS - Ephesians 2:10, 2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 13:21, Hebrews 4:10, Revelation 15:3,
(definition of works - Romans 9:15), John 1:12-13, Titus 3:5
WORSHIP - Revelation 3:9, Acts 17:24-26, (O.S.C.) John 4:23-24

HELL - (being defined here as the condition of being under the wrath of God)

ETERNAL - Mark 9:43, Revelation 14:10-11, 20:10, Psalm 9:5, Psalm 6:2.

JESUS ENDURED WRATH - Acts 2:27-31, Psalm 16:10
"lowest hell" - Psalm 86:13
"lowest pit" - Psalm 88:6-7 Psalm 88:14-15
"pit" = wrath of God - Revelation 20:10
"cup" = wrath of God - Psalm 75:8, Revelation 14:8-10
Jesus had the cup - Matthew 26:39
"counted as a transgressor" - Psalm 88:4, Mark 15:28, Isaiah 53:12
"wine press" = wrath of God Jesus tread it alone - Isaiah 53:3, Revelation 19:15

"Low I come in the volume of the book it is written of me to do thy will, 0 God" Ps 40: 68, Hebrews 10:7

GOD IS SOVEREIGN IN SALVATION

Ezekiel 36 & 36, John 11, Romans 9:14+, Jeremiah 18, Jonah, Numbers 23 (Balaam), Acts 9

JESUS DIED FOR ONLY THE ELECT

"for he shall save his people from their sin" Mt 1:21

"For many are called, but few are chosen." (elect 1588) Mt 22: 14, 20: 16

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, ... " Mt. 24:31 (it's not national Israel) - Revelation 7:4-15 (144 thou.)

"Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance." Ps 33: 12

"Blessed is the man whom thou chooses, and causest to approach unto thee that he may dwell in thy courts:" Ps 65:4

"For he remembered his holy promise, and Abraham his servant, and he brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness." Ps 105:42 + (Rom 9:6)

"For the Lord hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure" Ps 135:4

"But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham" Is 41:8

"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Is 48:10

"In whom we also have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will," Eph 1:11

"And except that the Lord had shortened these days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. " (elect 1586) Mk 13:20

"I know whom I have chosen ... " (elect 1586) Jn 13:17

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, .. " (elect 1586) Jn 15:16

 

[The Righterzpen]

it sure would be nice for some scripture to substantiate your claims and assumptions in your post.

AMBIGUOUS VERSES CONCERNING ELECTION?!

"But as many as received him (Greek word "lam-ban'o" [2983] - to get hold of), to them gave he the power to become the sons of God, even to them which believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, (earthly heritage such as national Israel) nor of the will of the flesh, (the components of humanity involving thought, feeling and action) nor of the will of man, (an action or decree by a human authority) but of God." Jn 1:12 &13

Notice the context of this verse is "He came unto his own and his own received him not. But as many as (had) received him..." meaning those who were physically present when he came unto his own; (even if they weren't nationally "his own") - to them he gave the power to become the sons of God.

This is a different context than those who become redeemed after Pentecost, since the acting agent of salvation after Pentecost is the Holy Spirit. This is why it says "which were born not of blood" since all the witnesses to Christ in the flesh and the recipients of his miracles were not all Jews.

And "Nor of the will of the flesh"; i.e. - their own human desire; since they came to see the miracles and not out of any human understanding that they needed redemption.

"Nor the will of man (or a man)". Their coming was not decreed by any human authority, including Jesus; (who was the only one who had the right to make that decree). This is why even Jesus was some times surprised and perplexed by some of the people who came to him. Being without sin, Jesus had the right to pass judgement as to who he thought was worthy of redemption. He refrained himself from that right, leaving it only to the Father; who being Spirit could see of spiritual things that Jesus could not perceive in the flesh because they had been veiled from him by his humanity.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. " Jn 3:16

People use this as a verse to justify universal atonement by pointing to the phrase "For God so loved the word"; but even in this translation it's easy to see that the "should not perish, but have everlasting life" is predicated upon the whosoever that believes. If there's no "belief" there's no "eternal life".

Now to more accurately translate this verse we must look at the tenses of the Greek phrases themselves. In doing so, we have "For God so loved (Greek word ag-ap-ah'-o [25] - love based in a moral righteousness for the intrinsic value of the object of that love) the world (Greek word "Kosmos" [2889] from which we get our English word "cosmos" or universe; meaning the entire created order of what God had made) that he gave (aorist indicative active - an act that takes place once and is not relative to the time of speaking) his only begotten son (only or sole born son), that (for the reason of) whosoever (all, or the whole of) believes in him (to put trust in - present active participle - denoting a continuos action that is contemporary to the leading verb; i.e. in this case, the giving of the only begotten son: - meaning all who believe at the time of the giving of the only begotten son) should not perish, but have (present subjective active - a repeated action that is subject to some condition being met) eternal life."

"For God so loved His creation that (at a certain point) He gave His only begotten son for the reason that the whole of who believed upon him (at the time of his giving) should not die but (continue in) eternal life (until their atonement is completed)."

This language is pointing to the fact that those who faced Christ in the flesh were in a more precarious situation than those who'd come to believe through the action of the Holy Spirit. The promise here is that those who trusted Jesus would not die before the Spirit was poured out on Pentecost and their souls were sealed to the eternal life they would inherit. This is why the phrase "have eternal life" is in the present subjective active voice. Their not perishing and inheriting of eternal life was subject to the atonement being completed: (which hadn't yet been accomplished in the duration of earthly time John was describing i.e. - the appearance of the messiah at the beginning of his preaching).

Taking all this into consideration, the rest of the verses fit right into that context. The son was not sent for the condemnation of the word, but for it's salvation. This is how those who don't believe are condemned already, because the light has come into the word, (God appearing in the flesh) exposing the fact that their deeds are evil.

Their deeds were known to be evil because of their obvious rejection of Christ. They knew and could see by the presence of his miracles that he was "the real deal". He had genuine authority, not just granted to him of his Father (as was with the prophets who came before) but inherent in who he was. The miracles were given as a witness to what he was saying about himself and his role as God incarnate Redeemer. This is why Jesus said "If you don't believe me... than believe the works (miracles) I've performed. John 10:37+.

"There went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world (Greek word oy-kou-men'-ay {those that dwell in the earth} [3625]) should be taxed." Lk 2:I

Notice this is a totally different word than the word world (Kosmos) used in John. We can denote a few things from this phrase in Luke. First of all, we know Caesar Augustus did not tax the Chinese or the American Indians. Of course those peoples and nations were out of his jurisdiction. So just because a word is translated "world" does not give us the liberty to assume it's speaking of everyone on planet earth.

This is the same with John 3:16 "For God so loved the word". We are not at liberty to assume this means all the inhabitants of the earth; for if it had, John could have very easily used this here word "ov-kou-men'-ay" in his description of the love of God for the world. He didn't use this word (inhabitants of the earth); he used the word cosmos (or all the created order). Why did John use the word cosmos instead of inhabitants of the earth? The simple answer to that is that this created order is also part of the redemption plan. Rom 8:19

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, ... but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Pete 3:9

Notice who Peter is writing to in this passage. These people are professing a belief in Christ. Now Peter being one who is truly counted as an elect individual includes himself in those who God is long-suffering toward and not willing that any should perish. This is why the passage says "long-suffering to us-ward"; it doesn't say "long-suffering to all, not willing that any should perish.."

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you shall serve; whether the gods which your fathers served which were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Armories, in whose land ye dwell but as for me and my house we shall serve the Lord."

Notice the choice is not weather to serve God or not serve God. It simply says that if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, than there are a million other god's out there you can choose from. The choice is not between the truth and a lie, the choice is between two lies.

" .. he is the propitiation (make reconciliation for [2433, 2434] for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" 1 Jn 2:2

Jesus makes reconciliation for our sins and also for the sin of anyone in this whole world who's sin has been covered. The verse is not saying he's covering the sin of the whole world; if it meant that it would be phrased "...he is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" It is simply saying he is the one who makes reconciliation for all in this world who are to be reconciled. Again, notice the context of the verse, these people were confused about whether or not they could be reconciled by the Old Testament law.

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Act 4:12

GOD REVEALS HIS MERCY TO ONLY THE ELECT

"neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." Mt. 11:27

"Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." Mt. 13:11

" ... no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father" Jn 6:65 "This is the work of God that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" Jn 6:29

"For as the Father raises up the dead, and quickens them; even so the Son quickens whom he will" Jn 5:21

".and the sheep follow him for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow for they know not the voice of strangers" Jn 10:4

JESUS IS GOD

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Gen 1:1

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ... " Gen. 1:26

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, (being elevated to equal status with) the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace " Is. 9:6

Here is a verse were people are easily confused. They either argue that Jesus and the Father are one in the same, or they use it as a proof text that there is no trinity because of the confusion it causes. A simple investigation of the Hebrew it's-self answers the question. Jesus in his human state has been elevated to equal status in an eternal standing with the Father. This statement does not say he's become the Father. They are equal desire, character and authority, as well as "substance" (what ever "substance" you would define God as) but they are not one another. Our best earthly example is water. It comes in three forms (liquid, vapor and ice), performs different roles in this world, but still remains and never ceases to be two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen.

"I the Lord (Jehovah) am thy Savior and thy Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob." Is. 60:16

"Yet I am the Lord (Jehovah) thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no other gods but me: for there is no savior beside me." Hos 13:4

These passages are pointing out the fact that the "Lord" in the Old Testament (the word translated Lord is the Hebrew word "Yeh-ho-vaw'" which is where we get our English word Jehovah) is the savior and the redeemer. People often confuse this and say it's the Father in heaven who's making these statements when in fact it is Jesus "pre-incarnated".

He starts all the way back in Genesis and runs all the way through to Revelation as the Creator of this world. He is the word that speaks to the prophets and the word which is eventually made flesh. Adam was created in the image of God (that image being Christ) and in return God was incarnated in the form of Adam to achieve what Adam never could. This is how and why this world was created by him and for him. (Col 1:16) Jesus was the only proper redeemer because he'd created this world in the expression of his image for the purpose of redeeming it. This is why the redemption of this created order isn't possible unless he who created it becomes a part of it and partakes in it as the image of God that he'd created; i.e. the second Adam.

It's interesting to realize that the god of people who claim God could never take on human form because he is God; miss the fact that because he is God, is the very reason he can take on human form. An all powerful being who does not have the ability to become part of his own creation is not all powerful now is he?

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." Mat. 1:23 (from Is 7:14)

"And Tomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." Jn 20:29

Notice Jesus never corrected Thomas. He never said "No Thomas, I'm not God."

"who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in the earth, ... " Col 1:15

Now, many also confuse this verse. They assert that "first born of every creature.." means that Jesus was created before anything else was. Three verses down though, defines what he's "firstborn of". He's firstborn from the dead. Now why is Jesus firstborn from the dead of all creatures? That's simple; without Jesus's resurrection - nothing else could be raised. What of the people in Hebrew Scripture who'd been raised from the dead? The atonement that Christ procured took place in Earthly time; but it also took place in eternity and eternity it's-self is not confined by Earth's timetable. Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundations of the world. Rev 13:8

"For in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" Col 2:9

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles ... " 1 Tim 3:16

"without descendant, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abides a priest continually" Heb. 7:3

"to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." Jude 25

"I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, what you see, write in a book. Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that lives, and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen." Rev 1:8 &11&17

Of course we must tackle some of the most difficult and perplexing questions as to how Jesus could be God and still be praying to the Father? What was the Father's role in all of this and how is it that Jesus could be so human with a mind and will of his own and still be God?

I agree, it is not enough to simply say the trinity is unknowable and to leave out any further investigation on the manner. Now, yes it is true that we are not going to know every thing about God and how He operates, but that doesn't mean we can't gain a great deal of understanding; and dare I say enough understanding to grasp the trinity?

What seems like contradictions in the scripture concerning Jesus praying and his exercise of and / or mentioning of his own will are easily explained by the status he agreed to take on. When Jesus made the decision to become a human being, he agreed to abide under all the same rules that govern creation and live as any other human being does. This was necessary to redeem this world, for if he'd had any advantage over any other man; he wouldn't have been the proper sacrifice.

All the proponents of being a male Homo Saipan Jesus abided in. He passed through all the stages of human development any child does and labored as a young adult in a carpentry shop to provide for his mother and siblings. He contended the same way any of us do with the laws of physics and the natural running of the created order. This is why he got hungry, tired, injured and probably even sick.

Taking a closer look at biology, we see It is impossible for a human brain to learn something it's never been exposed to. This is due to the temporal nature of the physical world. Jesus had a dimension of his person that was eternal, but the body he resided in had a beginning; this is why he learned things (including obedience - Heb 5:8) in the same manner we all do.

Jesus's earthly mind was not all knowing and neither did he have some special power to physically see or hear things that we can't. We know this to be true because if he had some "special powers" inherent in the make up of his physical body, he would have not been the proper sacrifice because he would have had an advantage over the first Adam.

Being incarnated to be exactly like the first Adam, Jesus had an advantage his fellow human beings had lost via the first Adam; Jesus had a will that was not encumbered by sin. The state of being independent of sin made his will in every sense of the word - totally free. He as the Creator of this world had the choice to do with it as he pleased. His intention was redemption and so because that was what he wanted, it was also what the Father wanted.

Jesus's struggle in Gethsemane had to do with how willing he was to be severed from the God-head in order to express his love for the world he intended to redeem. He struggled in his humanity with the pain of that decision and wanted it to end. Jesus was not some sado-masochistic individual who loved to suffer and this is why he said "not my will but thine be done."

Other aspects of being human Jesus "dwelt" in, comprised issues of the heart and soul; discovering his purpose and place in this world, dealing with stress, loss, frustration, feeling emotions and the different drives of biology. If we look carefully at the recorded things Jesus said and did, we see he gave considerable thought to issues of power, economy, self preservation and the expression of sexuality. He was in-touch with these issues because he had a body that was fashioned to be so. All of these aspects of being human were the reasons Jesus prayed!