PCA vs PCUSA

[Caedmon]

What's the difference between the Presbyterian Church of America and the Presbyterian Church USA?

 

[Dorothyne]

ok i'll bite. What is the difference?

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by Dorothyne
ok i'll bite. What is the difference?

LOL, no no no... I want to know.

 

[Susan]

The PCUSA is liberal and barely "Christian." I heard that one time they even had a worship service to "Sophia" an alleged "wisdom goddess." Also they support abortion and a myriad of other liberal beliefs.

Stay away if you want to keep your faith.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by Susan
The PCUSA is liberal and barely "Christian." I heard that one time they even had a worship service to "Sophia" an alleged "wisdom goddess." Also they support abortion and a myriad of other liberal beliefs.

Stay away if you want to keep your faith.

Wha... you're going to have to cite some reliable sources Susan.

 

[Susan]

I don't know but that's what I've seen and heard of them in the news.

 

[Caedmon]

I find it very difficult to believe that a Presbyterian group would participate in such things.

 

[Hewlett]

Originally posted by humblejoe
I find it very difficult to believe that a Presbyterian group would participate in such things.

I found it difficult to believe myself. But its true. Just go to PCUSA web site and search under "sophia".

Here is a link to the PCUSA website (pcusa.org) describing something about sophia:

http://www.pcusa.org/ga214/news/ga02049.htm


Makes you wonder.

 

[isshinwhat]

Sophia means Wisdom. For instance, the old church, the Hagia Sophia means Holy Wisdom, I believe. Sophia is not a goddess, but a Greek name for the Wisdom of God.

The following comes from the Wisdom of Solomon, which is in the Catholic, Orthodox, and Coptic (I believe) Bibles.

Wisdom of Solomon, chapter 7


1: I also am mortal, like all men, a descendant of the first-formed child of earth; and in the womb of a mother I was molded into flesh,
2: within the period of ten months, compacted with blood, from the seed of a man and the pleasure of marriage.
3: And when I was born, I began to breathe the common air, and fell upon the kindred earth, and my first sound was a cry, like that of all.
4: I was nursed with care in swaddling cloths.
5: For no king has had a different beginning of existence;
6: there is for all mankind one entrance into life, and a common departure.
7: Therefore I prayed, and understanding was given me; I called upon God, and the spirit of wisdom came to me.
8: I preferred her to scepters and thrones, and I accounted wealth as nothing in comparison with her.
9: Neither did I liken to her any priceless gem, because all gold is but a little sand in her sight, and silver will be accounted as clay before her.
10: I loved her more than health and beauty, and I chose to have her rather than light, because her radiance never ceases.
11: All good things came to me along with her, and in her hands uncounted wealth.
12: I rejoiced in them all, because wisdom leads them; but I did not know that she was their mother.
13: I learned without guile and I impart without grudging; I do not hide her wealth,
14: for it is an unfailing treasure for men; those who get it obtain friendship with God, commended for the gifts that come from instruction.
15: May God grant that I speak with judgment and have thought worthy of what I have received, for he is the guide even of wisdom and the corrector of the wise.
16: For both we and our words are in his hand, as are all understanding and skill in crafts.
17: For it is he who gave me unerring knowledge of what exists, to know the structure of the world and the activity of the elements;
18: the beginning and end and middle of times, the alternations of the solstices and the changes of the seasons,
19: the cycles of the year and the constellations of the stars,
20: the natures of animals and the tempers of wild beasts, the powers of spirits and the reasonings of men, the varieties of plants and the virtues of roots;
21: I learned both what is secret and what is manifest,
22: for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me. For in her there is a spirit that is intelligent, holy, unique, manifold, subtle, mobile, clear, unpolluted, distinct, invulnerable, loving the good, keen, irresistible,
23: beneficent, humane, steadfast, sure, free from anxiety, all-powerful, overseeing all, and penetrating through all spirits that are intelligent and pure and most subtle.
24: For wisdom is more mobile than any motion; because of her pureness she pervades and penetrates all things.
25: For she is a breath of the power of God, and a pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty; therefore nothing defiled gains entrance into her.
26: For she is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness.
27: Though she is but one, she can do all things, and while remaining in herself, she renews all things; in every generation she passes into holy souls and makes them friends of God, and prophets;
28: for God loves nothing so much as the man who lives with wisdom.
29: For she is more beautiful than the sun, and excels every constellation of the stars. Compared with the light she is found to be superior,
30: for it is succeeded by the night, but against wisdom evil does not prevail.

It is my favorite Old Testament book. It is absolutely beautiful in its poetic language.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by Hewlett
I found it difficult to believe myself. But its true. Just go to PCUSA web site and search under "sophia".

Here is a link to the PCUSA website (pcusa.org) describing something about sophia:

http://www.pcusa.org/ga214/news/ga02049.htm


Makes you wonder.

Actually, I think you and Susan are misconstruing what's actually going on with this "sophia" thing. As isshin stated, "sophia" means wisdom, not a goddess.

Look at the first chapter of the book of Proverbs. "Wisdom" is distinctly personified as a "woman".

Wisdom shouts in the street, she lifts her voice in the square; at the head of the noisy streets she cries out; at the entrance of the gates in the city she utters her sayings - Proverbs 1:20&21, NASB, bolding mine

Aha! That's why they're refering to a "sister sophia"!

 

[Susan]

no wonder your avatar's a wolf.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by Susan
no wonder your avatar's a wolf.

What are you implying Susan?

 

[Susan]

Someone agreeing with goddess worship is a wolf amongst the flock. . .shall I say?

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by Susan
Someone agreeing with goddess worship is a wolf amongst the flock. . .shall I say?

That's interesting... isshinwhat's and my posts have already refuted your so-called "goddess worship" theory, so, really, your argument is moot, and you have baselessly slandered me. I request an apology.

 

[Susan]

First of all, it was not my theory, secondly, are you sure they don't personify wisdom as a goddess to be worshipped?

That article of theirs said it all to me: she was seeking guidance from Sophia (capitalized) NOT from God through His Spirit, Who is definitely not female.

If I misunderstood I aplologize, however it is my firm belief that the PCUSA practices goddess worship.

 

[MizDoulos]

Please Note: As I have posted many times in the past in other threads, if you have personal conflicts that need to be resolved, please do so through your e-mail or private message option in your profile page. Do not air them publicly. Please think before you post any further comments.

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[Hewlett]

Actually, I think you and Susan are misconstruing what's actually going on with this "sophia" thing. As isshin stated, "sophia" means wisdom, not a goddess.

I disagree that I am miscontruing what is actually going on. While its true the bible does personify wisdom as a woman, that does not justify or explain these "Sophia" encounters. I would argue these PCUSA women are dangerously misconstruing what is said it the bible. They may or may not intend to be involved in goddess worship. We certainly do not know what is in their hearts or minds.

But if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck I call it a duck.

Goddess worship may not be the intent these PCUSA ladies had. But, I think I have a good argument that it is the effect. If I am misconstruing what is going on it is also easy for young Christians, led by these PCUSA women, to also 'misconstrue' what they are doing, and believe sophia goddess worship is ok. In that way an unintended effect of the sophia encounter's is purposefull goddess worship by others.

Satan definitely has a way of distorting good christian motives (these women claim these encounters bring them closer to God) into working for him. I believe this sohpia worship does this. At the very least it takes their eyes off the Cross and away from Jesus.

Here is a portion of the PCUSA news article:

COLUMBUS, OH — The Rev. Jane Adams Spahr, widely regarded as the No. 1 Voice of Sophia in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), told a breakfast audience on June 18 about the many times she has encountered Sophia and heard her many voices.

"Meeting Sophia is like hearing the ‘swish’ sound of the basketball through the net," she said. "No ‘still small voice.’ The sound is big, yet soft like the ‘swish.’"

She said that, when she "first met Sophia," she "felt known, like knowing God in a deeper way; and in that knowing, I felt free, alive, ready to be me in a whole new way."

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by Hewlett
I disagree that I am miscontruing what is actually going on. While its true the bible does personify wisdom as a woman, that does not justify or explain these "Sophia" encounters. I would argue these PCUSA women are dangerously misconstruing what is said it the bible. They may or may not intend to be involved in goddess worship. We certainly do not know what is in their hearts or minds.

But if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck I call it a duck.

Goddess worship may not be the intent these PCUSA ladies had. But, I think I have a good argument that it is the effect. If I am misconstruing what is going on it is also easy for young Christians, led by these PCUSA women, to also 'misconstrue' what they are doing, and believe sophia goddess worship is ok. In that way an unintended effect of the sophia encounter's is purposefull goddess worship by others.

Satan definitely has a way of distorting good christian motives (these women claim these encounters bring them closer to God) into working for him. I believe this sohpia worship does this. At the very least it takes their eyes off the Cross and away from Jesus.

Here is a portion of the PCUSA news article:

I understand what you think is happening in this situation, but I do not view it as "goddess worship". Where is the altar to this goddess? Where is her temple? Where are the "holy writings" dedicated to this deity? Where are the sacrifices? They are not worshipping a "goddess", but rather are actively engaging in the eternal wisdom of God. If you'll notice, the focus is on God:

She said that, when she "first met Sophia," she "felt known, like knowing God in a deeper way; and in that knowing, I felt free, alive, ready to be me in a whole new way."

- http://www.pcusa.org/ga214/news/ga02049.htm
italics mine

That sounds pretty God-centered to me.

 

[Hewlett]

I understand what you think is happening in this situation, but I do not view it as "goddess worship". Where is the altar to this goddess? Where is her temple? Where are the "holy writings" dedicated to this deity? Where are the sacrifices? They are not worshipping a "goddess", but rather are actively engaging in the eternal wisdom of God. If you'll notice, the focus is on God:

You say you understand what I think is happening. I don't believe that is correct. Your definition of goddess is only one of several. Here is one definition of god (not God) I got from American Heritage dictionary

god (not God)

1. being of super natural powers or attributes, believed in and worshipped by people.

Ok, I have no idea what the intent of the PCUSA woman is. It really doesn't matter for my argument.


They appear to me to be having an super natural encounter with someone named 'sophia' who is other than the father, the son or holy spirit. Last I heard the trinity (3 -in -1 ) is still true. What do you call it when it's (4 -in -1)? Or are they talking 3-in-1 plus one more for good measure.

Again I stand by my previous statement:

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks likes a duck, its a duck.

We probably ought to end this sophia rabbit trail soon lest we get too far off your off your initial question 'what is diff between PCA and PCUSA.'

On that note, I do think this sophia stuff does present one very clear example on where I think these two churces differ. I can't speak for the PCA church, but I believe it would find this kind of practice idolatry or goddess worship and would never sanction it. They might even give someone the boot if they persisted in sophia encounters. I believe part of what is now the PCA church broke off from PC USA at some point. I think the liberalism that is behind sophia led to the break (It is my opinion it will lead to more breaks.). From what I understand about PCA they believed the PCUSA church untrue to the reformed faith and did not hold scripture to be final authority. In other words PCUSA was too liberal. One definition of liberal being a church that holds personal knowledge to be of equal or higher authority than the bible.(I make no references here to the Catholic church which holds Church tradition to be equal but not lesser authority to Bible or something like that). I realize their are other definitions of liberal out there.

 

[Caedmon]

Agreed, and I'm sorry if I was putting words in your mouth... now, back to my question...

What are the major differences between the Presbyterian Church of America, and the Presbyterian Church USA?