Paul's limited understanding!

[St_Worm2]

God the Holy Spirit

We teach that the Holy Spirit is a divine Person, eternal, underived, possessing all the attributes of personality and deity, including intellect (1 Corinthians 2:10-13), emotions (Ephesians 4:30), will (1 Corinthians 12:11), eternality (Hebrews 9:14), omnipresence (Psalm 139:7-10), omniscience (Isaiah 40:13-14), omnipotence (Romans 15:13), and truthfulness (John 16:13). In all the divine attributes He is coequal and consubstantial with the Father and the Son (Matthew 28:19; Acts 5:3-4; 28:25-26; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 13:14; and Jeremiah 31:31-34 with Hebrews 10:15-17).

We teach that it is the work of the Holy Spirit to execute the divine will with relation to all mankind. We recognize His sovereign activity in creation (Genesis 1:2), the incarnation (Matthew 1:18), the written revelation (2 Peter 1:20-21), and the work of salvation (John 3:5-7).

We teach that the work of the Holy Spirit in this age began at Pentecost when He came from the Father as promised by Christ (John 14:16-17; 15:26) to initiate and complete the building of the Body of Christ, which is His church (1 Corinthians 12:13). The broad scope of His divine activity includes convicting the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment; glorifying the Lord Jesus Christ and transforming believers into the image of Christ (John 16:7-9; Acts 1:5; 2:4; Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Ephesians 2:22).

We teach that the Holy Spirit is the supernatural and sovereign Agent in regeneration, baptizing all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). The Holy Spirit also indwells, sanctifies, instructs, empowers them for service, and seals them unto the day of redemption (Romans 8:9; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Ephesians 1:13).

We teach that the Holy Spirit is the divine Teacher, who guided the apostles and prophets into all truth as they committed to writing God's revelation, the Bible (2 Peter 1:19-21). Every believer possesses the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit from the moment of salvation, and it is the duty of all those born of the Spirit to be filled with (controlled by) the Spirit (John 16:13; Romans 8:9; Ephesians 5:18; 1 John 2:20, 27).

We teach that the Holy Spirit administers spiritual gifts to the church. The Holy Spirit glorifies neither Himself nor His gifts by ostentatious displays, but He does glorify Christ by implementing His work of redeeming the lost and building up believers in the most holy faith (John 16:13-14; Acts 1:8; 1 Corinthians 12:4-11; 2 Corinthians 3:18).

We teach, in this respect, that God the Holy Spirit is sovereign in the bestowing of all His gifts for the perfecting of the saints today, and that speaking in tongues and the working of sign miracles in the beginning days of the church were for the purpose of pointing to and authenticating the apostles as revealers of divine truth, and were never intended to be characteristic of the lives of believers (1 Corinthians 12:4-11; 13:8-10; 2 Corinthians 12:12;Ephesians 4:7 12; Hebrews 2:1-4). GTY Statement of Faith

"While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy
Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for
the work to which I have called them.”
Acts 13:2​

 

[anonymouswho]

I am so, so confused.

I do not see the scriptural support, at all through the verses you gave.

See second sentence in red: How could Yeshua have 'had' that relationship with the Father, past tense? What are you saying here, that Jesus is not at the right hand of the Father again? The Word says that He is.

I understand the confusion. Hopefully I can clarify.

Yeshua is the reason for all things. He is the fulfillment of Genesis 1:26, as well as the fulfillment of the Law (this doesn't mean He abolished or voided the Law or purpose in any way). Yeshua did not "physically" share any glory with God in the past. Like, he didn't hang out with God since the beginning of the world.

God is the Cause of all things. In the beginning of his work, He had a goal- a purpose. The entire Universe was stretched out and made specifically for this purpose. This purpose is what God gave glory to. Yeshua, being the Messiah and the son of God, is the fulfillment of the purpose. So Yeshua says...

"I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Mankind becoming the sons of God is the purpose God set out to accomplish...

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12

You see, we also are "born of God". Not because our mothers were virgins when they had us, but because we have been "born again". Once this purpose was accomplished in Yeshua, he gave this glory to us...

""And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one" John 17:22

How is it that we have the same glory that Yeshua had with the Father- before the world was prepared? We did not preexist with the Father, but when we fulfill his purpose...follow His Law, rid ourselves of evil, cast out the tares and store up the wheat....we become the sons of God. The purpose is fulfilled in us.

Yeshua says many hard things to understand. This is because the words he spoke were not his own, and they were not concerning him. They were about our Father...

"Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." John 12:44

If he wanted everyone to understand, he would have just told us without all the parables...

"Then said I, Ah Lord YHVH! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?" Ezekiel 20:49

"That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him." John 12:38

I understand why you feel there is no Biblical support for this. This is so much different than Christian theology, and it contradicts so many things that Christian theology teaches. I have learned that Christianity has this web of ideas that are all connected. I have this same web of ideas, but mine is the complete opposite of Christianity.

Freewill, hell, the fall of mankind, original sin, the incarnation, the trinity, ect...none of these terms are in the bible (except for hell, but I hope we can all agree Gehennah, sheol, hades, and the grave are perfectly acceptable translations of the many different terms called "hell"). But they are all connected. The story goes...

God is outside of time and reality. He created all things out of nothing. God created Adam and Eve and commanded them not to eat from the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. The fallen angel Lucifer was cast from heaven, and he wants to steal God's glory. He tricks Eve into eating the fruit, so that her and Adam use their freewill to disobey God. Thus sin enters the world. Every man from Adam to now has been born with this infection of sin. Jesus, the second person of the triune God, was incarnated into flesh from the virgin Mary, thus avoiding this sin nature. He came to warn us of a place called hell, where his father, the first person of the triune God, will send anyone that does not believe in Jesus. Lucifer has been at war with God, fighting him for as many souls that he can drag to hell with him. Once Lucifer drags 95% of souls with him to this eternal torture chamber (that God created at some unspecified point), and God gets his 5% of true believers, God will declare himself winner and the believers will go to heaven and do stuff.

This is not even close to what I read in the Scriptures. This is a whole story built on unscriptural terms. Perhaps I should go ahead and show you what I believe happened to Adam and Eve...

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis 1:26

God had a purpose...to make mankind in his image and his likeness.

"And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." Genesis 1:29

God told man that absolutely every plant and tree was his to eat of. Man at this point was completely ignorant of good and evil. He did not understand what it would mean to disobey, because he was ignorant...

"And out of the ground made YHVH God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil." Genesis 2:9

God himself planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This was not an accident and it was not a test. He planted it for a reason.

"And YHVH God commanded (Hebrew: charged) the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou [shalt] not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Hebrew: dying thou die)." Genesis 2:16

The problem with this verse is that word "shalt" in "thou shalt not eat of". The original Hebrew does not say "shalt". It says...

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil not eat of for (כִּי: because) in the day (because it was sure to happen) that you eat thereof dying you die

http://biblehub.com/text/genesis/2-17.htm

God did not command Adam that he could not eat of the fruit. He charged him that on the day he eats of it, dying he will die. The curse that God put on man was not because of disobedience. It was because God said man would begin to die when they ate the fruit.

So then we get to the serpent...

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which YHVH God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" Genesis 3:1

First, we see God made the serpent himself, and He made the serpent for a purpose. The first words out of the serpents mouth is a lie. We just saw that God said they could eat of every tree, but the serpent says "did God say you may not eat of every tree?" No, God did not say this. It was merely implied, and that is where confusion comes from. This confuses Eve, but she responds by quoting God...

"And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye [shall] not eat of it, neither [shall] ye touch it, lest ye die."

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The serpent lies again, and says they will not die. However, he also gives them a small amount of truth mixed in with this lie. He tells Eve they will be like the gods, knowing good and evil. God confirms this...

"And YHVH God said, Behold, the man is become as (like- in our likeness) one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" Genesis 3:22

Now that mankind had the knowledge, they still lacked very much. They didn't have the wisdom and prudence to distinguish what is evil and what is good. This comes from experience, which every man has. The Law is the culmination of perfection. Because he was tempted with sin but did not transgress the Law, Yeshua is the culmination of perfection. He is the express image of God, because he has the knowledge of good and evil, and he also has the wisdom and prudence to choose only good.

This is why I do not accuse Adam of sin. Even Paul says...

"For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

However, Paul, and ONLY Paul, says Adam and Eve sinned...

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." 1 Timothy 2:14

You will not find a single verse in the Scriptures or in any of the Greek manuscripts that say Adam sinned- apart from Paul...

"One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established." Deuteronomy 19:15

The Scriptures do not tell us to avoid the way of Adam. They don't tell us that we should refrain from using something called a freewill to disobey. They tell us to avoid the way of Cain...

"For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous." 1 John 3:11

Okay, I think that's enough for now. Thank you.

 

[amariselle]

I understand the confusion. Hopefully I can clarify.

Yeshua is the reason for all things. He is the fulfillment of Genesis 1:26, as well as the fulfillment of the Law (this doesn't mean He abolished or voided the Law or purpose in any way). Yeshua did not "physically" share any glory with God in the past. Like, he didn't hang out with God since the beginning of the world.

God is the Cause of all things. In the beginning of his work, He had a goal- a purpose. The entire Universe was stretched out and made specifically for this purpose. This purpose is what God gave glory to. Yeshua, being the Messiah and the son of God, is the fulfillment of the purpose. So Yeshua says...

"I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Mankind becoming the sons of God is the purpose God set out to accomplish...

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12

You see, we also are "born of God". Not because our mothers were virgins when they had us, but because we have been "born again". Once this purpose was accomplished in Yeshua, he gave this glory to us...

""And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one" John 17:22

How is it that we have the same glory that Yeshua had with the Father- before the world was prepared? We did not preexist with the Father, but when we fulfill his purpose...follow His Law, rid ourselves of evil, cast out the tares and store up the wheat....we become the sons of God. The purpose is fulfilled in us.

Yeshua says many hard things to understand. This is because the words he spoke were not his own, and they were not concerning him. They were about our Father...

"Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." John 12:44

If he wanted everyone to understand, he would have just told us without all the parables...

"Then said I, Ah Lord YHVH! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?" Ezekiel 20:49

"That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him." John 12:38

I understand why you feel there is no Biblical support for this. This is so much different than Christian theology, and it contradicts so many things that Christian theology teaches. I have learned that Christianity has this web of ideas that are all connected. I have this same web of ideas, but mine is the complete opposite of Christianity.

Freewill, hell, the fall of mankind, original sin, the incarnation, the trinity, ect...none of these terms are in the bible (except for hell, but I hope we can all agree Gehennah, sheol, hades, and the grave are perfectly acceptable translations of the many different terms called "hell"). But they are all connected. The story goes...

God is outside of time and reality. He created all things out of nothing. God created Adam and Eve and commanded them not to eat from the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. The fallen angel Lucifer was cast from heaven, and he wants to steal God's glory. He tricks Eve into eating the fruit, so that her and Adam use their freewill to disobey God. Thus sin enters the world. Every man from Adam to now has been born with this infection of sin. Jesus, the second person of the triune God, was incarnated into flesh from the virgin Mary, thus avoiding this sin nature. He came to warn us of a place called hell, where his father, the first person of the triune God, will send anyone that does not believe in Jesus. Lucifer has been at war with God, fighting him for as many souls that he can drag to hell with him. Once Lucifer drags 95% of souls with him to this eternal torture chamber (that God created at some unspecified point), and God gets his 5% of true believers, God will declare himself winner and the believers will go to heaven and do stuff.

This is not even close to what I read in the Scriptures. This is a whole story built on unscriptural terms. Perhaps I should go ahead and show you what I believe happened to Adam and Eve...

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis 1:26

God had a purpose...to make mankind in his image and his likeness.

"And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." Genesis 1:29

God told man that absolutely every plant and tree was his to eat of. Man at this point was completely ignorant of good and evil. He did not understand what it would mean to disobey, because he was ignorant...

"And out of the ground made YHVH God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil." Genesis 2:9

God himself planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This was not an accident and it was not a test. He planted it for a reason.

"And YHVH God commanded (Hebrew: charged) the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou [shalt] not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Hebrew: dying thou die)." Genesis 2:16

The problem with this verse is that word "shalt" in "thou shalt not eat of". The original Hebrew does not say "shalt". It says...

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil not eat of for (כִּי: because) in the day (because it was sure to happen) that you eat thereof dying you die

http://biblehub.com/text/genesis/2-17.htm

God did not command Adam that he could not eat of the fruit. He charged him that on the day he eats of it, dying he will die. The curse that God put on man was not because of disobedience. It was because God said man would begin to die when they ate the fruit.

So then we get to the serpent...

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which YHVH God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" Genesis 3:1

First, we see God made the serpent himself, and He made the serpent for a purpose. The first words out of the serpents mouth is a lie. We just saw that God said they could eat of every tree, but the serpent says "did God say you may not eat of every tree?" No, God did not say this. It was merely implied, and that is where confusion comes from. This confuses Eve, but she responds by quoting God...

"And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye [shall] not eat of it, neither [shall] ye touch it, lest ye die."

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The serpent lies again, and says they will not die. However, he also gives them a small amount of truth mixed in with this lie. He tells Eve they will be like the gods, knowing good and evil. God confirms this...

"And YHVH God said, Behold, the man is become as (like- in our likeness) one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" Genesis 3:22

Now that mankind had the knowledge, they still lacked very much. They didn't have the wisdom and prudence to distinguish what is evil and what is good. This comes from experience, which every man has. The Law is the culmination of perfection. Because he was tempted with sin but did not transgress the Law, Yeshua is the culmination of perfection. He is the express image of God, because he has the knowledge of good and evil, and he also has the wisdom and prudence to choose only good.

This is why I do not accuse Adam of sin. Even Paul says...

"For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

However, Paul, and ONLY Paul, says Adam and Eve sinned...

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." 1 Timothy 2:14

You will not find a single verse in the Scriptures or in any of the Greek manuscripts that say Adam sinned- apart from Paul...

"One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established." Deuteronomy 19:15

The Scriptures do not tell us to avoid the way of Adam. They don't tell us that we should refrain from using something called a freewill to disobey. They tell us to avoid the way of Cain...

"For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous." 1 John 3:11

Okay, I think that's enough for now. Thank you.

So, how did mankind come to be sinful then? And what of the curses God speaks onto Adam and Eve and how He clearly tells them they disobeyed Him while Adam is busy blaming Eve and Eve is busy blaming the serpent, (who was also cursed for what he did).

When the cool evening breezes were blowing, the man and his wife heard the Lord God walking about in the garden. So they hid from the Lord God among the trees. Then the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

He replied, “I heard you walking in the garden, so I hid. I was afraid because I was naked.”

“Who told you that you were naked?” the Lord God asked. “Have you eaten from the tree whose fruit I commanded you not to eat?”

The man replied, “It was the woman you gave me who gave me the fruit, and I ate it.”

Then the Lord God asked the woman, “What have you done?”

“The serpent deceived me,” she replied. “That’s why I ate it.”

Then the Lord God said to the serpent,

“Because you have done this, you are cursed
more than all animals, domestic and wild.
You will crawl on your belly,
groveling in the dust as long as you live.
And I will cause hostility between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring.
He will strike your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

Then he said to the woman,

“I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy,
and in pain you will give birth.
And you will desire to control your husband,
but he will rule over you.”

And to the man he said,

“Since you listened to your wife and ate from the tree
whose fruit I commanded you not to eat,
the ground is cursed because of you.
All your life you will struggle to scratch a living from it.
It will grow thorns and thistles for you,
though you will eat of its grains.
By the sweat of your brow
will you have food to eat
until you return to the ground
from which you were made.
For you were made from dust,
and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:8-17)

Clear and severe punishment for disobeying the Lord. Why would He punish them if they never disobeyed Him? And if they never disobeyed Him, why does He say that they did? God is a righteous and holy God, there is no darkness in Him. He would not lie and curse Adam and Eve for a sin they never committed, and He doesn't play games, trick people or lead them into temptation.

 

[anonymouswho]

God the Holy Spirit

We teach that the Holy Spirit is a divine Person, eternal, underived, possessing all the attributes of personality and deity, including intellect (1 Corinthians 2:10-13), emotions (Ephesians 4:30), will (1 Corinthians 12:11), eternality (Hebrews 9:14), omnipresence (Psalm 139:7-10), omniscience (Isaiah 40:13-14), omnipotence (Romans 15:13), and truthfulness (John 16:13). In all the divine attributes He is coequal and consubstantial with the Father and the Son (Matthew 28:19; Acts 5:3-4; 28:25-26; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 13:14; and Jeremiah 31:31-34 with Hebrews 10:15-17).

We teach that it is the work of the Holy Spirit to execute the divine will with relation to all mankind. We recognize His sovereign activity in creation (Genesis 1:2), the incarnation (Matthew 1:18), the written revelation (2 Peter 1:20-21), and the work of salvation (John 3:5-7).

We teach that the work of the Holy Spirit in this age began at Pentecost when He came from the Father as promised by Christ (John 14:16-17; 15:26) to initiate and complete the building of the Body of Christ, which is His church (1 Corinthians 12:13). The broad scope of His divine activity includes convicting the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment; glorifying the Lord Jesus Christ and transforming believers into the image of Christ (John 16:7-9; Acts 1:5; 2:4; Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Ephesians 2:22).

We teach that the Holy Spirit is the supernatural and sovereign Agent in regeneration, baptizing all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). The Holy Spirit also indwells, sanctifies, instructs, empowers them for service, and seals them unto the day of redemption (Romans 8:9; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Ephesians 1:13).

We teach that the Holy Spirit is the divine Teacher, who guided the apostles and prophets into all truth as they committed to writing God's revelation, the Bible (2 Peter 1:19-21). Every believer possesses the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit from the moment of salvation, and it is the duty of all those born of the Spirit to be filled with (controlled by) the Spirit (John 16:13; Romans 8:9; Ephesians 5:18; 1 John 2:20, 27).

We teach that the Holy Spirit administers spiritual gifts to the church. The Holy Spirit glorifies neither Himself nor His gifts by ostentatious displays, but He does glorify Christ by implementing His work of redeeming the lost and building up believers in the most holy faith (John 16:13-14; Acts 1:8; 1 Corinthians 12:4-11; 2 Corinthians 3:18).

We teach, in this respect, that God the Holy Spirit is sovereign in the bestowing of all His gifts for the perfecting of the saints today, and that speaking in tongues and the working of sign miracles in the beginning days of the church were for the purpose of pointing to and authenticating the apostles as revealers of divine truth, and were never intended to be characteristic of the lives of believers (1 Corinthians 12:4-11; 13:8-10; 2 Corinthians 12:12;Ephesians 4:7 12; Hebrews 2:1-4). GTY Statement of Faith

"While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy
Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for
the work to which I have called them.”
Acts 13:2​

In almost every verse, the spirit is referred to as God's spirit. You also have a spirit. It is not a separate person from you. It is your spirit. When God gives us His spirit, we recieve a new spirit.

I don't like to use Paul to prove a point, but I think even he understood what a man's spirit is...

"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." 1 Corinthians 2:10

The spirit is that invisible man inside of you that thinks. It is not a separate person. The spirit of God is His "mind" or His "thoughts". God is also a spirit, so the holy spirit is God. Not as a separate person, but as the same person and being as the Father. It is the Father's spirit just as we have a spirit. He gives us this spirit or mind-set, which in Greek is literally "the set-apart spirit".

"And ye shall be holy unto me: for I YHVH am holy, and have severed you (set you apart) from other people, that ye should be mine." Leviticus 20:26

When we recieve this spirit, we have become one with the Father, even as/in the same way Yeshua is one with the Father.

The strongest verse that might "prove" the spirit is a person is...

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
The Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." John 14:16

The argument is that masculine pronouns are associated with the spirit of truth, but "spirit" is a neuter noun and "truth" is feminine. However, "comforter" is a masculine noun, and that is the reason Yeshua uses a masculine pronoun. He never stopped speaking of the comforter, so every pronoun has to be associated with this noun. This is not only acceptable Greek, it is the only way such a thing could be said. The pronoun has nothing to do with whether a thing is a he, she, or it.

I hope that clears it up. Thank you.

 

[anonymouswho]

So, how did mankind come to be sinful then? And what of the curses God speaks onto Adam and Eve and how He clearly tells them they disobeyed Him while Adam is busy blaming Eve and Eve is busy blaming the serpent, (who was also cursed for what he did).

When the cool evening breezes were blowing, the man and his wife heard the Lord God walking about in the garden. So they hid from the Lord God among the trees. Then the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

He replied, “I heard you walking in the garden, so I hid. I was afraid because I was naked.”

“Who told you that you were naked?” the Lord God asked. “Have you eaten from the tree whose fruit I commanded you not to eat?”

The man replied, “It was the woman you gave me who gave me the fruit, and I ate it.”

Then the Lord God asked the woman, “What have you done?”

“The serpent deceived me,” she replied. “That’s why I ate it.”

Then the Lord God said to the serpent,

“Because you have done this, you are cursed
more than all animals, domestic and wild.
You will crawl on your belly,
groveling in the dust as long as you live.
And I will cause hostility between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring.
He will strike your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

Then he said to the woman,

“I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy,
and in pain you will give birth.
And you will desire to control your husband,
but he will rule over you.”

And to the man he said,

“Since you listened to your wife and ate from the tree
whose fruit I commanded you not to eat,
the ground is cursed because of you.
All your life you will struggle to scratch a living from it.
It will grow thorns and thistles for you,
though you will eat of its grains.
By the sweat of your brow
will you have food to eat
until you return to the ground
from which you were made.
For you were made from dust,
and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:8-17)

Clear and severe punishment for disobeying the Lord. Why would He punish them if they never disobeyed Him? And if they never disobeyed Him, why does He say that they did? God is a righteous and holy God, there is no darkness in Him. He would not lie and curse Adam and Eve for a sin they never committed, and He doesn't play games, trick people or lead them into temptation.

Thank you amarisella. I understand your concern. Please let me clarify.

"And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded (צָוָה: charged) thee, saying, Thou [shalt] not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake (בַּֽעֲבוּרֶ֔ךָ: correctly translated, means for thy sake); in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;" Genesis 3:17

http://biblehub.com/text/genesis/3-17.htm

If you click on the link, you can see that it says "commanded" is a verb. Here is what I get for the verb definition of charge...

2
charge
verb,
Simple Definition of charge

• : to give an amount of electricity to (something) : to put electricity into a battery so that a machine or device will run
  
  
• : to give a job or responsibility to (a person or group) : to make (a person or group) responsible for something
  
  
• : to formally accuse (someone) of a crime
  

Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

It also says...

"to impose a task or responsibility on <charge him with the job of finding a new meeting place>b : to command, instruct, or exhort with authority <I charge you not to go>c of a judge : to give a charge to (a jury)"

Exhort means...strongly encourage or urge (someone) to do something.

God did not command them, he charged them. He put them in charge of whether they would eat the fruit or not, and he warned and exhorted them that when they ate of it, dying they would die.

Then God curses the ground. But why? If Adam didn't really sin or do anything wrong, why is the ground cursed. God gives His reason. The ground is cursed "for thy sake".

For thy sake means for your benefit. If I say, "I am telling you this for your own sake", it means I'm telling you this for your own benefit. But how could such a curse be for our benefit?

Remember, Adam and Eve now possessed the knowledge of good and evil, but they lacked wisdom and prudence. They were just told they were "as the gods", which is about as high an exaltation one could recieve. The reason for the curse is hidden in Ecclesiastes...

"And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (רָ֗ע: evil) travail (עִנְיָן: occupation, experience) hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (לַעֲנ֥וֹת: humbled, brought low) therewith." Ecclesiastes 1:13

http://biblehub.com/text/ecclesiastes/1-13.htm

Thank you.

 

[amariselle]

Thank you amarisella. I understand your concern. Please let me clarify.

"And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded (צָוָה: charged) thee, saying, Thou [shalt] not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake (בַּֽעֲבוּרֶ֔ךָ: correctly translated, means for thy sake); in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;" Genesis 3:17

http://biblehub.com/text/genesis/3-17.htm

If you click on the link, you can see that it says "commanded" is a verb. Here is what I get for the verb definition of charge...

2
charge
verb,
Simple Definition of charge

• : to give an amount of electricity to (something) : to put electricity into a battery so that a machine or device will run
  
  
• : to give a job or responsibility to (a person or group) : to make (a person or group) responsible for something
  
  
• : to formally accuse (someone) of a crime
  

Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

It also says...

"to impose a task or responsibility on <charge him with the job of finding a new meeting place>b : to command, instruct, or exhort with authority <I charge you not to go>c of a judge : to give a charge to (a jury)"

Exhort means...strongly encourage or urge (someone) to do something.

God did not command them, he charged them. He put them in charge of whether they would eat the fruit or not, and he warned and exhorted them that when they ate of it, dying they would die.

Then God curses the ground. But why? If Adam didn't really sin or do anything wrong, why is the ground cursed. God gives His reason. The ground is cursed "for thy sake".

For thy sake means for your benefit. If I say, "I am telling you this for your own sake", it means I'm telling you this for your own benefit. But how could such a curse be for our benefit?

Remember, Adam and Eve now possessed the knowledge of good and evil, but they lacked wisdom and prudence. They were just told they were "as the gods", which is about as high an exaltation one could recieve. The reason for the curse is hidden in Ecclesiastes...

"And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (רָ֗ע: evil) travail (עִנְיָן: occupation, experience) hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (לַעֲנ֥וֹת: humbled, brought low) therewith." Ecclesiastes 1:13

http://biblehub.com/text/ecclesiastes/1-13.htm

Thank you.

Hello again Anonymouswho,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. However, this still does not answer where sin came from. When did mankind become sinful? After all Jesus died to save us from our sins.

And I still do not agree that God would ever punish someone who did no wrong. It goes completely against His nature.

Also, if you take away the Fall and sin, you lose the need for a Saviour, for Jesus entirely.

 

[St_Worm2]

In almost every verse, the spirit is referred to as God's spirit. You also have a spirit. It is not a separate person from you. It is your spirit. When God gives us His spirit, we receive a new spirit.

Hi AW, that's simply not true Click on and read more of the passages that I posited above and you will see for yourself. Sometimes the HS is referred to as the Spirit of God, but He is also spoken of in terms that we use to refer to an individual (and that more than a few times). The HS is not simply the "expression" of a part of Another individual, He is an individual Himself, and many, many verses in the Bible make that abundantly clear (they all don't, of course, but proving that the HS is an individual member of the Godhead is not the reason that many of the passages that speak of Him were written).

Some references are clearer than others. For instance, we baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). IOW, we baptize in the "name" of God (Who exists as three Persons).

I've gotta run. I'll get back to this later (though we really need to start a different thread if this goes much further down its own rabbit trail).

"While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy
Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for
the work to which I have called them.”
Acts 13:2​

 

[ToBeLoved]

In almost every verse, the spirit is referred to as God's spirit. You also have a spirit. It is not a separate person from you. It is your spirit. When God gives us His spirit, we recieve a new spirit.

I know this is wrong.

We keep our spirit and receive the Holy Spirit in addition.

He is sent to us by the request of Jesus Christ to the Father for His Children.

John 14:16-19
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Romans 8:9-11
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Romans 8:15-17
15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him

 

[anonymouswho]

Hello again Anonymouswho,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. However, this still does not answer where sin came from. When did mankind become sinful? After all Jesus died to save us from our sins.

And I still do not agree that God would ever punish someone who did no wrong. It goes completely against His nature.

Also, if you take away the Fall and sin, you lose the need for a Saviour, for Jesus entirely.

I do not believe God punished Adam. I believe he cursed the ground "for his own sake". It was a blessing that God cursed the ground, lest man should think themselves higher than they are and forget that God is their maker. And then, rather than do good, they will only do evil because they have no need for God.

Where does sin come from? Sin is not a substance. It means "to miss the mark". Cain killed his brother because of his own selfish desires. He had the knowledge of good and evil, and he missed the mark of perfection. But he did not care. When Adam and Eve were aware of their nakedness, they immediately wished to cover themselves. They desired what was good, so God blessed them with clothes.

We are all in need of a savior. We have all missed the mark. Yeshua tells us where we have sinned, and how we can reverse this...

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:43

This is why it is so important that Yeshua was a man. If he was God, or some divine being, what would it have took to withstand temptation? God cannot be tempted with evil...

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man" James 1:13

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
For verily he took not on ([him the nature of] italics not in original) angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour (give assistance or aid to/save) them that are tempted." Hebrews 2:14

We need a savior, not from an eternal torture chamber of some mythical place called hell. From ourselves, because we are very good at "destroying" our lives.

Everyone is asking how Yeshua can be our savior if YHVH says he alone is our savior. Yeshua is our savior because YHVH sent him. YHVH chose Yeshua as our means of salvation. So YHVH is indeed is our only savior, and it is through Yeshua that He accomplished this.

You probably have a million more questions, and that's okay. I've asked myself every question that has been asked here so far, and many, many more. I assure you there is always an answer. And the correct answer is truth. There are no contradictions in the truth. One cannot say "this contradiction is a mystery, but have faith that it's true".

"For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay (contradict) nor resist." Luke 21:15

There is no truth in a contradiction. If I say...

"Every ball in the world is blue"

And then...

"Every ball in the world is red"

One of these is a lie and untrue. God says...

"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." Isaiah 45:23

If Yeshua talks of a place called hell where God will send 95% of mankind to be tortured and burned forever and ever (because one ever is never enough ), then one of these is either untrue, or misunderstood. Since this is so unfathomable and ridiculous that we know God could never do such a thing...we must accept that we have misunderstood Yeshua and he is talking about something else. If you really want to know what he's talking about, don't ask the theologians, ask God...

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." James 1:5

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you" Matthew 7:7

You have to seek for the answers. They are there. Never be afraid to ask any question, and don't settle until you are completely satisfied with the answer. The bible isn't true because somebody said it was true. It's true because it is actual truth.

Thank you.

 

[nothead]

God the Holy Spirit

We teach that the Holy Spirit is a divine Person, eternal, underived, possessing all the attributes of personality and deity, including intellect (1 Corinthians 2:10-13), emotions (Ephesians 4:30), will (1 Corinthians 12:11), eternality (Hebrews 9:14), omnipresence (Psalm 139:7-10), omniscience (Isaiah 40:13-14), omnipotence (Romans 15:13), and truthfulness (John 16:13). In all the divine attributes He is coequal and consubstantial with the Father and the Son (Matthew 28:19; Acts 5:3-4; 28:25-26; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 13:14; and Jeremiah 31:31-34 with Hebrews 10:15-17).

We teach that it is the work of the Holy Spirit to execute the divine will with relation to all mankind. We recognize His sovereign activity in creation (Genesis 1:2), the incarnation (Matthew 1:18), the written revelation (2 Peter 1:20-21), and the work of salvation (John 3:5-7).

We teach that the work of the Holy Spirit in this age began at Pentecost when He came from the Father as promised by Christ (John 14:16-17; 15:26) to initiate and complete the building of the Body of Christ, which is His church (1 Corinthians 12:13). The broad scope of His divine activity includes convicting the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment; glorifying the Lord Jesus Christ and transforming believers into the image of Christ (John 16:7-9; Acts 1:5; 2:4; Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Ephesians 2:22).

We teach that the Holy Spirit is the supernatural and sovereign Agent in regeneration, baptizing all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). The Holy Spirit also indwells, sanctifies, instructs, empowers them for service, and seals them unto the day of redemption (Romans 8:9; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Ephesians 1:13).

We teach that the Holy Spirit is the divine Teacher, who guided the apostles and prophets into all truth as they committed to writing God's revelation, the Bible (2 Peter 1:19-21). Every believer possesses the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit from the moment of salvation, and it is the duty of all those born of the Spirit to be filled with (controlled by) the Spirit (John 16:13; Romans 8:9; Ephesians 5:18; 1 John 2:20, 27).

We teach that the Holy Spirit administers spiritual gifts to the church. The Holy Spirit glorifies neither Himself nor His gifts by ostentatious displays, but He does glorify Christ by implementing His work of redeeming the lost and building up believers in the most holy faith (John 16:13-14; Acts 1:8; 1 Corinthians 12:4-11; 2 Corinthians 3:18).

We teach, in this respect, that God the Holy Spirit is sovereign in the bestowing of all His gifts for the perfecting of the saints today, and that speaking in tongues and the working of sign miracles in the beginning days of the church were for the purpose of pointing to and authenticating the apostles as revealers of divine truth, and were never intended to be characteristic of the lives of believers (1 Corinthians 12:4-11; 13:8-10; 2 Corinthians 12:12;Ephesians 4:7 12; Hebrews 2:1-4). GTY Statement of Faith

"While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy
Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for
the work to which I have called them.”
Acts 13:2​

Who is WE sir? GTY is WHO?

They going the same route as Gomers Have Gone Hither Since the Beginning.

Don't know WHAT or WHO the Holy Spirit IS since the beginning of Time.

Not BAPTISED in Spirit, thinking it AUTOMATICALLY comes by the three tenets of Jesus, THINKING from God's POV when He said HIS thoughts are His own etCETERA.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Thank you amarisella. I understand your concern. Please let me clarify.

"And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded (צָוָה: charged) thee, saying, Thou [shalt] not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake (בַּֽעֲבוּרֶ֔ךָ: correctly translated, means for thy sake); in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;" Genesis 3:17

http://biblehub.com/text/genesis/3-17.htm

If you click on the link, you can see that it says "commanded" is a verb. Here is what I get for the verb definition of charge...

2
charge
verb,
Simple Definition of charge

• : to give an amount of electricity to (something) : to put electricity into a battery so that a machine or device will run
  
  
• : to give a job or responsibility to (a person or group) : to make (a person or group) responsible for something
  
  
• : to formally accuse (someone) of a crime

Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

How can you take God's Word and then pick out a word and use Merriam Webster Dictionary to define God's Word?

This is what the Hebrew word is for 'commanded' in that verse.

ṣiw·wî·ṯî·ḵā —

Genesis 3:11
HEB: הָעֵ֗ץ אֲשֶׁ֧ר צִוִּיתִ֛יךָ לְבִלְתִּ֥י אֲכָל־
NAS: of which I commanded you not to eat?
KJV: of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not
INT: the tree of which commanded should not eat

tsavah: to lay charge (upon), give charge (to), command, order
Original Word: צָוָה
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: tsavah
Phonetic Spelling: (tsaw-vaw')
Short Definition: commanded
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. root
Definition
to lay charge (upon), give charge (to), command, order
NASB Translation
appoint (1), appointed (4), appoints (1), charge (5), charged (17), charging (1), command (56), commanded (332), commander (1), commanding (18), commands (6), commission (3), commissioned (4), commit (1), gave a command (1), gave them a charge (1), gave command (2), gave commandment (2), gave orders (2), give his charge (1), give you in commandment (1), give you charge (1), give orders (3), given (1), given a command (1), given it an order (1), given command (1), given commandment (1), giving (1), instructed (1), issued a command (2), laid (1), laid down (1), ordained (4), order (4), ordered (5), put (1), sent (1), set his in order (1), set your in order (2).

 

[amariselle]

I do not believe God punished Adam. I believe he cursed the ground "for his own sake". It was a blessing that God cursed the ground, lest man should think themselves higher than they are and forget that God is their maker. And then, rather than do good, they will only do evil because they have no need for God.

Where does sin come from? Sin is not a substance. It means "to miss the mark". Cain killed his brother because of his own selfish desires. He had the knowledge of good and evil, and he missed the mark of perfection. But he did not care. When Adam and Eve were aware of their nakedness, they immediately wished to cover themselves. They desired what was good, so God blessed them with clothes.

We are all in need of a savior. We have all missed the mark. Yeshua tells us where we have sinned, and how we can reverse this...

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:43

This is why it is so important that Yeshua was a man. If he was God, or some divine being, what would it have took to withstand temptation? God cannot be tempted with evil...

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man" James 1:13

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
For verily he took not on ([him the nature of] italics not in original) angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour (give assistance or aid to/save) them that are tempted." Hebrews 2:14

We need a savior, not from an eternal torture chamber of some mythical place called hell. From ourselves, because we are very good at "destroying" our lives.

Everyone is asking how Yeshua can be our savior if YHVH says he alone is our savior. Yeshua is our savior because YHVH sent him. YHVH chose Yeshua as our means of salvation. So YHVH is indeed is our only savior, and it is through Yeshua that He accomplished this.

You probably have a million more questions, and that's okay. I've asked myself every question that has been asked here so far, and many, many more. I assure you there is always an answer. And the correct answer is truth. There are no contradictions in the truth. One cannot say "this contradiction is a mystery, but have faith that it's true".

"For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay (contradict) nor resist." Luke 21:15

There is no truth in a contradiction. If I say...

"Every ball in the world is blue"

And then...

"Every ball in the world is red"

One of these is a lie and untrue. God says...

"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." Isaiah 45:23

If Yeshua talks of a place called hell where God will send 95% of mankind to be tortured and burned forever and ever (because one ever is never enough ), then one of these is either untrue, or misunderstood. Since this is so unfathomable and ridiculous that we know God could never do such a thing...we must accept that we have misunderstood Yeshua and he is talking about something else. If you really want to know what he's talking about, don't ask the theologians, ask God...

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." James 1:5

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you" Matthew 7:7

You have to seek for the answers. They are there. Never be afraid to ask any question, and don't settle until you are completely satisfied with the answer. The bible isn't true because somebody said it was true. It's true because it is actual truth.

Thank you.

I do believe the Bible is true. That's why I believe what it says. Jesus was not just a man, He is the Son of God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I understand the confusion. Hopefully I can clarify.

Yeshua is the reason for all things. He is the fulfillment of Genesis 1:26, as well as the fulfillment of the Law (this doesn't mean He abolished or voided the Law or purpose in any way). Yeshua did not "physically" share any glory with God in the past. Like, he didn't hang out with God since the beginning of the world.

God is the Cause of all things. In the beginning of his work, He had a goal- a purpose. The entire Universe was stretched out and made specifically for this purpose. This purpose is what God gave glory to. Yeshua, being the Messiah and the son of God, is the fulfillment of the purpose. So Yeshua says...

"I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Mankind becoming the sons of God is the purpose God set out to accomplish...

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12

You see, we also are "born of God". Not because our mothers were virgins when they had us, but because we have been "born again". Once this purpose was accomplished in Yeshua, he gave this glory to us...

""And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one" John 17:22

How is it that we have the same glory that Yeshua had with the Father- before the world was prepared? We did not preexist with the Father, but when we fulfill his purpose...follow His Law, rid ourselves of evil, cast out the tares and store up the wheat....we become the sons of God. The purpose is fulfilled in us.

Yeshua says many hard things to understand. This is because the words he spoke were not his own, and they were not concerning him. They were about our Father...

"Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." John 12:44

If he wanted everyone to understand, he would have just told us without all the parables...

"Then said I, Ah Lord YHVH! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?" Ezekiel 20:49

"That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him." John 12:38

I understand why you feel there is no Biblical support for this. This is so much different than Christian theology, and it contradicts so many things that Christian theology teaches. I have learned that Christianity has this web of ideas that are all connected. I have this same web of ideas, but mine is the complete opposite of Christianity.

Freewill, hell, the fall of mankind, original sin, the incarnation, the trinity, ect...none of these terms are in the bible (except for hell, but I hope we can all agree Gehennah, sheol, hades, and the grave are perfectly acceptable translations of the many different terms called "hell"). But they are all connected. The story goes...

God is outside of time and reality. He created all things out of nothing. God created Adam and Eve and commanded them not to eat from the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. The fallen angel Lucifer was cast from heaven, and he wants to steal God's glory. He tricks Eve into eating the fruit, so that her and Adam use their freewill to disobey God. Thus sin enters the world. Every man from Adam to now has been born with this infection of sin. Jesus, the second person of the triune God, was incarnated into flesh from the virgin Mary, thus avoiding this sin nature. He came to warn us of a place called hell, where his father, the first person of the triune God, will send anyone that does not believe in Jesus. Lucifer has been at war with God, fighting him for as many souls that he can drag to hell with him. Once Lucifer drags 95% of souls with him to this eternal torture chamber (that God created at some unspecified point), and God gets his 5% of true believers, God will declare himself winner and the believers will go to heaven and do stuff.

This is not even close to what I read in the Scriptures. This is a whole story built on unscriptural terms. Perhaps I should go ahead and show you what I believe happened to Adam and Eve...

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis 1:26

God had a purpose...to make mankind in his image and his likeness.

"And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." Genesis 1:29

God told man that absolutely every plant and tree was his to eat of. Man at this point was completely ignorant of good and evil. He did not understand what it would mean to disobey, because he was ignorant...

"And out of the ground made YHVH God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil." Genesis 2:9

God himself planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This was not an accident and it was not a test. He planted it for a reason.

"And YHVH God commanded (Hebrew: charged) the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou [shalt] not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Hebrew: dying thou die)." Genesis 2:16

The problem with this verse is that word "shalt" in "thou shalt not eat of". The original Hebrew does not say "shalt". It says...

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil not eat of for (כִּי: because) in the day (because it was sure to happen) that you eat thereof dying you die

http://biblehub.com/text/genesis/2-17.htm

God did not command Adam that he could not eat of the fruit. He charged him that on the day he eats of it, dying he will die. The curse that God put on man was not because of disobedience. It was because God said man would begin to die when they ate the fruit.

So then we get to the serpent...

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which YHVH God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" Genesis 3:1

First, we see God made the serpent himself, and He made the serpent for a purpose. The first words out of the serpents mouth is a lie. We just saw that God said they could eat of every tree, but the serpent says "did God say you may not eat of every tree?" No, God did not say this. It was merely implied, and that is where confusion comes from. This confuses Eve, but she responds by quoting God...

"And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye [shall] not eat of it, neither [shall] ye touch it, lest ye die."

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The serpent lies again, and says they will not die. However, he also gives them a small amount of truth mixed in with this lie. He tells Eve they will be like the gods, knowing good and evil. God confirms this...

"And YHVH God said, Behold, the man is become as (like- in our likeness) one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" Genesis 3:22

Now that mankind had the knowledge, they still lacked very much. They didn't have the wisdom and prudence to distinguish what is evil and what is good. This comes from experience, which every man has. The Law is the culmination of perfection. Because he was tempted with sin but did not transgress the Law, Yeshua is the culmination of perfection. He is the express image of God, because he has the knowledge of good and evil, and he also has the wisdom and prudence to choose only good.

This is why I do not accuse Adam of sin. Even Paul says...

"For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

However, Paul, and ONLY Paul, says Adam and Eve sinned...

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." 1 Timothy 2:14

You will not find a single verse in the Scriptures or in any of the Greek manuscripts that say Adam sinned- apart from Paul...

"One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established." Deuteronomy 19:15

The Scriptures do not tell us to avoid the way of Adam. They don't tell us that we should refrain from using something called a freewill to disobey. They tell us to avoid the way of Cain...

"For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous." 1 John 3:11

Okay, I think that's enough for now. Thank you.

I. Will be taking time later tonight and tomorrow to read through this thoroughly. Am in my phone so I can't right now. May pull small points to discuss ask read


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[anonymouswho]

I. Will be taking time later tonight and tomorrow to read through this thoroughly. Am in my phone so I can't right now. May pull small points to discuss ask read


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sounds great. I look forward to hearing from you. God bless.

 

[anonymouswho]

I. Will be taking time later tonight and tomorrow to read through this thoroughly. Am in my phone so I can't right now. May pull small points to discuss ask read


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sounds great. I look forward to hearing from you. God bless.

 

[anonymouswho]

I do believe the Bible is true. That's why I believe what it says. Jesus was not just a man, He is the Son of God.

I agree...the man Yeshua is the son of God.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2

I also believe he is not of this world....

"They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." John 17:16

Thank you.

 

[Righttruth]

I just crossed myself. You wouldn't know gospel if it HEYUHHED your face, homey.

Is the Gospel for you like your created word HEYUHHED?

 

[Righttruth]

Why don't you share with me those verses that Paul has said.

It is never going to be enough to Christians for you to plop one sentence of opinion not backed up by scriptural support and think it will in any way sway any of us.

So scripture please, written by Paul as you indicated about his beliefs above.

Galatians 4
4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

 

[anonymouswho]

How can you take God's Word and then pick out a word and use Merriam Webster Dictionary to define God's Word?

This is what the Hebrew word is for 'commanded' in that verse.

ṣiw·wî·ṯî·ḵā —

Genesis 3:11
HEB: הָעֵ֗ץ אֲשֶׁ֧ר צִוִּיתִ֛יךָ לְבִלְתִּ֥י אֲכָל־
NAS: of which I commanded you not to eat?
KJV: of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not
INT: the tree of which commanded should not eat

tsavah: to lay charge (upon), give charge (to), command, order

I pick out a Merriam Websters Dictionary because some people do not know what certain English words mean. See, right there in the concordance quoted, it says...

"tsavah: to lay charge (upon), give charge (to), command, order"

Charge is tsavah's main translation. So what does charge mean, and why is it a different English word than command? Because charge means...

"to give a job or responsibility to (a person or group) : to make (a person or group) responsible for something"

I don't see how there is anything wrong with this.

I know this is wrong.

We keep our spirit and receive the Holy Spirit in addition.

He is sent to us by the request of Jesus Christ to the Father for His Children.

John 14:16-19
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Romans 8:9-11
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Romans 8:15-17
15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him

I already addressed that the reason John used a masculine pronoun in John 14:16 is because comforter is a masculine noun.

Romans, in the KJV, says...

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God" Romans 8:16

The pronoun is neuter in this verse, because it applies to "spirit"...which is a neuter pronoun and an "it". Paul didn't use a masculine pronoun. Was he unaware of the triune god? I believe he leaned more toward's Arius' idea of a preexisting logos entity, but I'm not sure. Thank you.

 

[Neogaia777]

I'm very sorry about this brother Paul, but since someone else brought it up, I ask you brother Paul, would you rather have them venerate you, or our Lord Jesus Christ?

Paul taught against the Law, he did not have the revelation from Jesus that the Ten Commandments were, and have always been about Love... Jesus said that "he that breaks one of these least commandments, and teaches mankind to that effect, he will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but he who does them, and teaches them, he will be called great in the kingdom of God." He did not teach the Gentiles the Ten Commandments, but instead, he and the rest of the apostles taught them different, new law, (Romans 3;31) that was not decided upon by Jesus Christ...

He was massaginistic toward women, which Jesus never was... He took a vow and shaved his head, Jesus says not to vow, but only let your yes mean yes, and your no, no... He had his companion Timothy circumcised, due to the Jews, when he himself said that physical circumcision was nothing, guilty of the same kind of hypocrisy that he accused and confronted Peter about... Paul said he was all things to all people, he came close, but still fell short, only Jesus alone is all things to all people... But, regardless, Paul did have many revelations that are important to learn, despite his failings, God still used him in a mighty way, and he was given supernatural power, as were many of the apostles and diciples...

God Bless!