Paul Washer and Throwing Rocks

[abacabb3]

I wanted to pick your minds about the following:

Oh, that some of you would tear yourself away and go into the woods and not return for a week! That you would climb up one of these mountains and grab rocks from the ground and throw them to heaven and say, “I will not surrender this wrestling until you touch my life! Until you change me! Until there’s something of God on me!”

Importunity in Prayer - Paul Washer

Is it just me, or is this setting the bar a little high for the Christian? Not every Christian is going to have a profound sense of the Spirit that will escalate into rock throwing incidents. Further, going into the woods and acting like a loon sounds to me to be false asceticism, like the hermits of old. In the Scripture, we have examples of saved men of God going into such excursions when led to by the Spirit (Jesus) or when they are fleeing (Elijah, Jonah.) Does the Christian need to go out into the woods to really be "faithful" enough to have a real bromance with God or something?


I say this as someone, who is convinced, that has heard God speak twice (I'm not a prophet, it was years ago and it led to my conversion.) I have had no sense, leading, or the Scripture encouraging me to frolic in the woods and throwing rocks at God demanding to get to know Him better.

What do you guys think?

What do you guys think?

 

[hedrick]

Is it possible that he was not speaking literally?

 

[abacabb3]

No, it apparently relates to a true story where he really went in the woods and threw rocks yelling at God. My friends have mentioned the sermon, as does this website. I'm not a Paul Washer fan, so I have not seen all his stuff so I cannot quote the sermon.

The following I find a little concerning from Paul Washer (at the link):

The fact is that many believers do not have a life of prayer. Those that do pray are often more involved with intercession than seeking God for God. We can live with a special sense of God's presence and power in our lives.

I detect in my own prayer life something that Paul Washer says, so he is not entirely wrong. However, to say that every Christian's walk with God is going to escalate into rock throwing incidents and a permanent feeling of "presence" (something we often feel after a first few years of conversion) is to me unrealistic and, against his own urgings, reduces CHristianity to chasing a feeling.

I remember when I first repented, the sense of the Holy Spirit (I didn't even know what He was) was so awesome, it literally felt like a 24/7 high for about 4 years. It essentially lasted for years until my twin brother started getting profound health problems.

Now, some time during that period, I cannot nail the exact date, I remember praying to God, "Father, if it is your will that I not be happy but that in that you are glorified more, than I am willing even to sacrifice my happiness to you."

It is a weird prayer no doubt. I am not exactly sure what ever motivated it (I am presuming a concern over enjoying the blessing more than the one Whom blesses.) However, God sure answered it and has made me a far better man (with still a lot of problems ) as a result.

And so, as I am convinced God works all things in accordance with His will, I don't think I need a "feeling" in order to verify my good standing with Him. I am His willing servant, He may do as He pleases.

 

[JM]

I think he's saying every Christian should, “not surrender this wrestling until you touch my life! Until you change me! Until there’s something of God on me!”

 

[abacabb3]

It almost seems he thinks CHristians should be touched in some sort of additional way where they should have a special feeling at all times. Plus, I don't think throwing rocks "at God" is in good taste.

 

[JM]

It almost seems he thinks CHristians should be touched in some sort of additional way where they should have a special feeling at all times. Plus, I don't think throwing rocks "at God" is in good taste.

He is what is called an "experiential" or "experimental" Calvinist...as am I. J.C. Philpot is another that comes to mind. Dr. Joel Beeke would also fit that category.

Philpot quotes:

"Man's religion is to build up the creature. God's religion is to throw the creature down in the dust of self-abasement, and to glorify Christ."


"If we can throw any light on the word of truth, if we can enable our readers more clearly to understand, more firmly to believe, and more experimentally to feel the power of what God has revealed in the Scriptures for their instruction, edification, and consolation, that will be our chief reward, as, we hope, it is our chief aim."

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[JM]

The Rise and Progress of Religion in the Soul is excellent.

 

[JM]

Philpot,

When I feel no malady, I want no remedy; when I feel no condemnation, I want no salvation; when I am not exercised with a sense of inward guilt and distress, I want no precious blood sprinkled upon my conscience; I want no love shed abroad in my heart; I want no blessed visit from the Lord of life and glory; I want no sweet promise to bring its dew into my soul; I want nothing that the Lord has to bestow; I can occupy my mind in the things of time and sense, and be carnal, sensual, and earthly. But when various exercises recommence in the soul, and the Lord sets to His hand, and begins to revive the work of grace in the heart, then I want something divine, something experimental, something applied, something done in my soul that He alone can do for me. Without, then, these exercises, without a knowledge of the dreadful malady, without strong temptations, without daily conflicts, what is internal religion to me? If unexercised, I can do without internal, experimental religion; without the felt power of God; without Christ, without the blessed Spirit, without the Bible. But place me in circumstances of guilt, of exercise, of distress, of sorrow, of trouble, and the various perplexities that encompass the child of God, and let the Lord work by these things to kindle in my breast the spirit of supplication, then my soul will be wanting every blessing that God has to bestow; it will be separate from the world, and living a life of faith and prayer; it will be dealing with God; it will be coming out of the creature in all its shapes and forms, looking simply and solely to the Lord Jesus Christ. So that as we have the knowledge of the malady in its various branches, and an acquaintance with temptation, guilt, sin, shame, and sorrow -as these things are opening a way for the precious truths of God, and giving a place in our hearts for their heavenly influence, we are arriving at the knowledge of the remedy.

I can appeal to your consciences, you that have any for there are very few that have consciences, there are very few really exercised about divine things, there are very few that the Lord is really teaching by His blessed Spirit, and leading down into the solemn depths of divine things I say, you that have consciences, whose souls are kept alive by daily exercises, who know the evils of your hearts by their continually bubbling and springing forth; you that are not deceived by a name to live, or an empty profession of religion: I say, you whose souls are thus exercised, know that “in all these things you live and in all these things is the life of your spirit.” Take away your exercises, your afflictions, your sorrows, your perplexities, and the working of God by these things, and where is your religion? It has made to itself wings, and flown away. But let your minds be well exercised in the things of God; let affliction befall; let the bonds and ties of this world be severed: let temptations come with overwhelming weight; let the corruptions of our fallen nature boil up; let your soul sink down into trouble; let eternity open before your eyes; let death come into sight; and let your souls be solemnly exercised on divine realities; then I will answer for it, you will want what God alone can bestow upon you; and in the silent watches of the night, you will be crying, to God to look down upon you, to visit and bless you, to speak words of mercy to you, to shed abroad His love in your hearts, and to comfort and cheer your troubled soul. [source]

 

[jimmyjimmy]

If I am understanding Washer correctly (and I do have some other knowledge of him from various videos, so I think I do) IMO, this is pietistic nonsense. It's unhelpful, and it ignores the finished work of Christ, to some degree. It's almost pagan.

I don't need to do the equivalent of a rain dance to get God's attention on the matter of my sanctification. In fact, He cares about it more than I do! The life I live, I live by faith! This outburst of Washer's might seem a godly act, but it does not seem one of faith.

"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

 

[JM]

Naw, I don't believe so. It's more like a Calvinist seeking virtue. Pietism is more like a personal legalism by which you judge others. I think Washer is saying we should all want as much of Jesus Christ as possible, not to be satisfied with a nominal faith, but to seek His face in all things all the time.

 

[oworm]

I think Washer is saying we should all want as much of Jesus Christ as possible, not to be satisfied with a nominal faith, but to seek His face in all things all the time.

That's exactly what he's saying and that's exactly what I need as a Christian!

 

[abacabb3]

Naw, I don't believe so. It's more like a Calvinist seeking virtue. Pietism is more like a personal legalism by which you judge others. I think Washer is saying we should all want as much of Jesus Christ as possible, not to be satisfied with a nominal faith, but to seek His face in all things all the time.

Here's my problem with this. WHy can't I be satisfied with the measure of faith God gave me, pray for more but also ask God for Him to do according to His will that He may be glorified?

Literally throwing a rock is akin to commanding God (if such foolishness was possible) to give you a measure perhaps beyond His intention (unless, of course despite one's presumptuousness God is merciful and is gracious anyway).

So, I pray for the gift of prophecy as well as for a more vibrant faith, but I commend to my God that He does what in His judgement glorifies His name best. I do ask, selfishly, no matter what I be found hidden in Christ with God.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Naw, I don't believe so. It's more like a Calvinist seeking virtue. Pietism is more like a personal legalism by which you judge others. I think Washer is saying we should all want as much of Jesus Christ as possible, not to be satisfied with a nominal faith, but to seek His face in all things all the time.

Pietist are consumed with personal holiness, not Christ. At it's root, that IS legalism. May people are functional legalists without even realizing it. All people are, in part, unbelievers according to Calvin, and I think he is correct.

What Washer is doing with his rock throwing reminds me of this:

"But the righteousness based on faith says, i“Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the jabyss?’” (that is, kto bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? l“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim)"

 

[stenerson]

I'm not sure if Washer meant we should do it literally.. I do believe that we should emphasize to those awakened to the things of God to take the kingdom by force/violence. That's is , to not rest, to pray continually like the widow continually pestered the unjust judge.. To seek God's grace, mercy and assurance with diligence.

 

[abacabb3]

I'm not sure if Washer meant we should do it literally.. I do believe that we should emphasize to those awakened to the things of God to take the kingdom by force/violence. That's is , to not rest, to pray continually like the widow continually pestered the unjust judge.. To seek God's grace, mercy and assurance with diligence.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this, I do think that perhaps it was not emphasized enough that Paul Washer is talking about a literal incident.

Likewise, so does Tim COnway (his partner in crime at I'll Be honest ), when he speaks of how it is good to go in the woods, talk aloud to God as if He were in a conversation in us.

I think the appeal here is nothing surprising. Essentially it is the appeal of the mystic. It is worth noting that mysticism is lacking from the Scripture and is found in all of the religions of paganism and heathenism.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I'm not sure if Washer meant we should do it literally.. I do believe that we should emphasize to those awakened to the things of God to take the kingdom by force/violence. That's is , to not rest, to pray continually like the widow continually pestered the unjust judge.. To seek God's grace, mercy and assurance with diligence.

It almost doesn't matter if he meant it literally or not not. I see it as fundamental wrong and unchristian/sub-Christian talk.

*** I'm obviously only guessing at what Washer means, but I'm guessing based on my experience, that of others, and knowledge of both God and self. Fifteen years ago, I would have applauded what Washer said in that quote, but now I see it as problematic.

One guy in my small group used to mention a monk who, all day long, repeated, "Christ have mercy; Lord have mercy." My friend saw this as an act of a sold-out Christian, one who was completely devoted; however, I saw it as an act of unbelief. Why? Because Christ has ALREADY had mercy upon us. It's ours. Faith vs works is at the heart of this, as I see it. The human heart will do anything and everything to justify itself - to stand before God on its own merit. It's insidious.

Throwing rocks, literally or otherwise is not the way to holiness. It's walking in the Spirit that is. Gal 5.

 

[Righttruth]

Here's my problem with this. WHy can't I be satisfied with the measure of faith God gave me, pray for more but also ask God for Him to do according to His will that He may be glorified?

Literally throwing a rock is akin to commanding God (if such foolishness was possible) to give you a measure perhaps beyond His intention (unless, of course despite one's presumptuousness God is merciful and is gracious anyway).

Such things were sought by apostles in a way earlier!

So, I pray for the gift of prophecy as well as for a more vibrant faith, but I commend to my God that He does what in His judgement glorifies His name best. I do ask, selfishly, no matter what I be found hidden in Christ with God.

I would rather busy myself in cultivating the fruit of the Spirit!