Paul vs James who is right?

Buzz_B · Feb 25, 2018

1213 said:
But to him who doesn't work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.
Romans 4:5

Interesting question is, what does it really mean to believe in Jesus? That you believe what he said? Or that he existed?

Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead in itself. Yes, a man will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe, and shudder. But do you want to know, vain man, that faith apart from works is dead?
James 2:17

In this, the interesting thing is the difference between faith (loyalty) and believing something. Righteous person is faithful (loyal) to God and it can be seen in actions. Even in the Romans 4:5, if person believes what Jesus said, it can be seen as faithfulness that is seen in action (believing).

All those who the Father gives me will come to me. Him who comes to me I will in no way throw out. This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:37-40

Yes, those who are given, will not be lost, but maybe not all who call themselves “Christian” are really disciples of Jesus and believe Jesus.

Disciples of Jesus can be recognized by this:

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

And if person is truly righteous, it can be seen by this:

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

When the wider context is considered, I think we are safe to see Romans 4:5 as saying, "But to him who doesn't work [with a mindset as if to try to earn salvation], but [instead] believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness."

For if that were not true then far too many other statements of Scripture would suddenly have become meaningless. For example John 14:21 and John 14:24.

bugkiller · Feb 25, 2018

Devin P said:
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Well, I'd agree. I don't say James is saying that either.

But in this verse for example, was Abraham proving to men his faith? No. He had faith already, or he wouldn't of offered his son, but this faith resulted in and was perfected in an action. James is simply saying that all throughout scriptures, we see that God's word tells us that we are blessed with faith first, but that this faith results in and is perfected by, actions.

Those actions, are the obedience to God. Because it's one thing to have faith and believe, and even say you believe, but it's another to prove your belief, in altering the way you live your life to show that you believe.

We do what God says, and obey God, not for salvation, because we're already saved. We now that are saved, desire obedience to God and His word because we're saved. Therefore our works, are the works of God as fruits of salvation, not the roots of it. The fruit of our salvation, is that we have a desire to and actively do obey God's laws, statutes and decrees.

I've been in and have been keeping torah (the law) for almost a year now, and honestly it's been the most freeing, amazingly character building year I've ever had. I've learned SO much about God's word, the things Jesus was represented by in the old testament, I've made so much family from fellowship, grew in love for the Father, and have been blessed to watch Him blossom my faith and the faith of those around me. It's honestly the best year of my life, and I'm saddened only by the fact that I didn't come to understanding how important keeping torah was years ago. But, I understand that God has a timing for everything. He knows me more than I know me, so if last year when I came to Torah was best for me, so be it.

Once I realized that the "church" was Israel, it blew my mind, and opened up so much of the scriptures that things I never understood open wide up and make much more sense.

Lay down the rules by number. Did Abraham earn his salvation by offering Isaac? If not, then works have nothing to do with salvation. If yes, then salvation is not a free gift, but payment. You insist on works which I believe you require for salvation. Please name them.

bugkiller

GraceBro · Feb 26, 2018

mmbattlestar said:
Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

Paul was correct. James explained things as best he could given the fact he was still influenced by his background in Judaism. Study the conflicts in Acts 15 with the early church arguing over circumcision. Study Galatians 2 where Paul talked about his conflict with James and the "men from James" that caused Peter, Barnabas, and other believers to stumble out of fear of their condemnation. They did not agree on the subject, which is fine. The Church has similar conflicts today. So, we are no different. For further study go here: Living God Ministries - Faith and Works

Sam91 · Feb 26, 2018

Their views are not mutually exclusive.

James is explaining how faith produces works as an outcome. That if we have faith but no works follow theb something isn't right.

Paul is saying that it isn't through works that we are saved but through faith in the Lord Jesus, Christ.

Devin P · Feb 26, 2018

bugkiller said:
Lay down the rules by number. Did Abraham earn his salvation by offering Isaac? If not, then works have nothing to do with salvation. If yes, then salvation is not a free gift, but payment. You insist on works which I believe you require for salvation. Please name them.

bugkiller

Well no, as I said, and as James said, Abraham was justifiedby faith before being told to offer Isaac, but because he was first made righteous by faith, he then perfected that faith with circumcision and by being willing to offer his son. God stopped him though because he proved faithful in that he would've done what was asked - that he was obedient.

Salvation is still a free gift. But because we're saved we should desire obedience to God, not disobedience. Obedience to God and His laws is the fruit of our salvation, not the root of it. We are saved by faith, but without works that faith is simply lip service.

"For he who practices righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous."

JoeP222w · Feb 26, 2018

mmbattlestar said:
Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

Paul is speaking of justification.

James is speak of sanctification.

Neither is speak contradictory to one another. They are both right in their writings in the Bible.

mark kennedy · Feb 26, 2018

JoeP222w said:
Paul is speaking of justification.

James is speak of sanctification.

Neither is speak contradictory to one another. They are both right in their writings in the Bible.

Paul does spend a good deal of time on justification by grace but that isn't functionally disconnected from sanctification, as if they were two different things. By the time James and Paul wrote these books the recipients have probably been Christians for years, maybe even decades.

Ken Rank · Feb 26, 2018

mmbattlestar said:
Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

They are by no means at odds. The Hebrew people are an action oriented people. The Shema (Hear O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one) isn't just "hear" as ANY Hebrew scholar will tell you that shema really means "hear and do" or "hear and obey" or "hear and act," etc. I submit, that faith is the same thing. When you take what Paul wrote AND what James wrote and put them together... we get this exact same picture as Shema, watch....

Paul said "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." So in order to have faith we have to 1. hear and 2. make sure what we are hearing is from God. Then, James said "faith without works is dead being alone." That means that there has to be an action attached to faith. So... we hear God and then we act on what we hear, that is faith. So what does that look like for you? God said He would save you, and He will... so now profess Jesus with your lips (that is an action) and begin to learn what He desires for you in your life (also an action) and then live it (likewise, an action). The entire picture is faith... you heard and then you acted.

It isn't that you worked to gain salvation, it is that you heard God, believed what was said because the source was God, and then acted on what you heard because that is what you heard. All of that, combined, is faith... not just the "belief" part.

JoeP222w · Feb 26, 2018

mark kennedy said:
Paul does spend a good deal of time on justification by grace but that isn't functionally disconnected from sanctification, as if they were two different things.

I agree. However, neither Paul nor James proclaimed a gospel where one is justified by works. Good works will be the result of justification.

mark kennedy · Feb 26, 2018

JoeP222w said:
I agree. However, neither Paul nor James proclaimed a gospel where one is justified by works. Good works will be the result of justification.

The bottom line issue is what are those works and James identifies it as the 'Royal Law', consider this:

Are they not the ones who blaspheme the noble Name by which you have been called? If you really keep the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. (James 2:7-9)

If you miss the fact that Paul argues often and elegantly for justification by grace through faith apart from works your not paying attention. In 1 Corinthians 11 he addresses the poor being deprived in the agape (love) feast in some of his strongest language. Then he continues with a discussion of the gifts of the Holy Spirit building up the body of Christ to be a Temple wherein the Holy Spirit dwells. Then goes on to his great love chapter, 1 Corinthians 13, and then continues his discussion on order in Christian worship.

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. (1 Cor. 13:11)

Like I pointed out earlier, these people have been Christians for years, maybe decades. The works that are the evidence and the fruit of the righteousness that comes by grace through faith is ultimately the love of God shed abroad in our hearts. Pick virtually any of the writings of Paul and I'll show you where he drives this point home at the heart of the emphasis.

There is no conflict there, when James says faith without works is dead it's the same as Jesus saying a tree that does not bear fruit is cut down and cast into the fire. You can see this clear as day, you just have to ask the key question, what are the works James is referring to because he is crystal clear he is referring to the 'Royal Law'.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Rita G. · Feb 26, 2018

Compare Ro 5:1 with Ja 2:24

Any child in elementary school who just learned how to read can understand that this is a CONTRADICTION!

YES! . . the bible has CONTRADICTIONS! . . BUT NO MISTAKES!

Paul and James were addressing 2 different audiences. . .

They don’t teach you this in your denominational churches.

Sam91 · Feb 26, 2018

Rita G. said:
Compare Ro 5:1 with Ja 2:24

Any child in elementary school who just learned how to read can understand that this is a CONTRADICTION!

YES! . . the bible has CONTRADICTIONS! . . BUT NO MISTAKES!

Paul and James were addressing 2 different audiences. . .

They don’t teach you this in your denominational churches.

2 timothy 2:14

aiki · Feb 26, 2018

Rita G. said:
Compare Ro 5:1 with Ja 2:24

Any child in elementary school who just learned how to read can understand that this is a CONTRADICTION!

YES! . . the bible has CONTRADICTIONS! . . BUT NO MISTAKES!

Paul and James were addressing 2 different audiences. . .

They don’t teach you this in your denominational churches.

You are, it seems, mistaking an apparent contradiction for an actual one.

Romans 5:1-2 (NKJV)
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

James 2:24 (NKJV)
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

What does Paul mean? Does he leave the door open to thinking that works have a salvific effect? No. He very clearly explains in other of his letters that a believer's justification is entirely apart from works:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

And,

Titus 3:5-6
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

How about James? Is he just as unequivocal in his teaching that justification is by works? Not really. He explains:

James 2:17-18
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

It seems pretty clear here that James intends us to understand that faith - real, saving faith - always produces corresponding behaviour. In a sense, faith is completed, or is fully expressed, by its corresponding works. James makes this point quite clearly:

James 2:22
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

"Perfect" (in Greek: τελειόω - teleioo) carries the idea of fulfillment, accomplishment, or completion. James isn't saying, then, that works actually save a person, but only that they fulfill or complete genuinely saving faith. This is akin to an apple tree bearing apples. Barring disease, or malnourishment, or drought, an apple tree will naturally and inevitably produce apples; an apple tree that doesn't bear apples has something wrong with it. However, it is only because the apple tree is an apple tree that it can bear apples. No apple tree bears apples in order to be an apple tree. The fruit an apple tree bears does not make the tree what it is. Likewise, the "fruit" a believer bears is not the means of their salvation but the inevitable result of being saved. It seems to me, in regards to faith and works, James is saying no more than this.

tdidymas · Feb 26, 2018

mmbattlestar said:
Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

Here's another look at it:

Paul says "we maintain that a man is justified by faith, apart from works of the law" - this means that the basis for our claim to salvation is the work of Christ, not our own. It means that we don't come to God with confidence because we've "been good." Rather, we come to God in confidence because Christ was good to us.

James says "faith without works is dead..." and "you see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone." The "faith" being talked about here is a different form than the context of Paul's statement. Here James is saying that if you have a claim to believe in Christ, but aren't following His commands, all you have is a theory. Since theories are limited to the imagination, such a person has no basis for assurance of salvation. In order for justification to become real, we have to have the works of God flowing through us to prove it so. Thus, James is talking about works that prove the genuineness of our justification.
TD

mark kennedy · Feb 26, 2018

Rita G. said:
Compare Ro 5:1 with Ja 2:24

Any child in elementary school who just learned how to read can understand that this is a CONTRADICTION!

YES! . . the bible has CONTRADICTIONS! . . BUT NO MISTAKES!

Paul and James were addressing 2 different audiences. . .

They don’t teach you this in your denominational churches.

Taking two verses out of their context and making this kind of a comparison assumes entirely too much and neglects the most basic rule of Hermeneutics. A text without a context is a pretext, there is no contradiction if you read both those statements in their natural context.

mark kennedy · Feb 26, 2018

aiki said:
You are, it seems, mistaking an apparent contradiction for an actual one.

Romans 5:1-2 (NKJV)
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

James 2:24 (NKJV)
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

What does Paul mean? Does he leave the door open to thinking that works have a salvific effect? No. He very clearly explains in other of his letters that a believer's justification is entirely apart from works:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

And,

Titus 3:5-6
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

How about James? Is he just as unequivocal in his teaching that justification is by works? Not really. He explains:

James 2:17-18
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

It seems pretty clear here that James intends us to understand that faith - real, saving faith - always produces corresponding behaviour. In a sense, faith is completed, or is fully expressed, by its corresponding works. James makes this point quite clearly:

James 2:22
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

"Perfect" (in Greek: τελειόω - teleioo) carries the idea of fulfillment, accomplishment, or completion. James isn't saying, then, that works actually save a person, but only that they fulfill or complete genuinely saving faith. This is akin to an apple tree bearing apples. Barring disease, or malnourishment, or drought, an apple tree will naturally and inevitably produce apples; an apple tree that doesn't bear apples has something wrong with it. However, it is only because the apple tree is an apple tree that it can bear apples. No apple tree bears apples in order to be an apple tree. The fruit an apple tree bears does not make the tree what it is. Likewise, the "fruit" a believer bears is not the means of their salvation but the inevitable result of being saved. It seems to me, in regards to faith and works, James is saying no more than this.

Exactly! The idea of teleioo includes maturity, at some point faith must yield fruit. Paul makes this clear as well but when you snatch a verse out of it's natural context you will miss it.

Rita G. · Feb 26, 2018

You need context? Read Romans . . and then read James . . the context will tell you who they’re written to.

gideon123 · Feb 26, 2018

We just had a long discussion about this in our Church bible study.

Paul and James are **not** in conflict.

Paul is saying that we are saved by faith and by faith alone. James is saying, after we are saved, the things we do with Christ in our lives (i.e. our works) are a clear testimony to real faith.

James is also saying, if believers have **no** works, after they are saved, then this is a clear indication that their faith was never real. Because anyone who has God in their hearts - will live by God and walk with God.

I hope this helps.

Rita G. · Feb 26, 2018

I’ll make it simple for ya . .
Paul teaches justification by FAITH ALONE . Ever hear of ‘sola fide’?
The other apostles taught justification by faith PLUS WORKS.

mark kennedy · Feb 26, 2018

Rita G. said:
You need context? Read Romans . . and then read James . . the context will tell you who they’re written to.

Both are writing to a largely Jewish audience, there can be no question about that. The issues they deal with are virtually identical as are the doctrinal issues.

Paul vs James who is right?

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