Paul vs James who is right?

Sam91 · Mar 3, 2018

Rita G. said:
@justbyfaith & wordkeeper,
You don’t ‘get it’.
It’s not your fault, it’s the way you were taught.
Jesus taught salvation by faith plus works, and his ministry was to JEWS! (covenant) Mat 15:24
Paul was converted by Jesus in Acts 9 for another ministry to bring in gentiles by teaching the they would be saved by faith without works. (apart from covenant)

So through this intepretation does your faith produce any signs that you believe? How are you being like 'salt' or 'light'? If the bridegroom was to return do you have 'oil' and ready to open the door? Some of those are rhetoric, it is the first question I was interested in a reply to. The others are to ponder. I ask for clarification to what your surmise means when put into practise in order to understand the principle.

Many thanks.

EDIT: I half expect you to either: a)restate that Jesus was speaking to the Jews. Or b) Go to the OP verses and not answer.

I do hope that you answer though. It would help in understanding your position.

Wordkeeper · Mar 3, 2018

Rita G. said:
@justbyfaith & wordkeeper,
You don’t ‘get it’.
It’s not your fault, it’s the way you were taught.
Jesus taught salvation by faith plus works, and his ministry was to JEWS! (covenant) Mat 15:24
Paul was converted by Jesus in Acts 9 for another ministry to bring in gentiles by teaching the they would be saved by faith without works. (apart from covenant)

Interesting. So:

James 2:18
But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Means: But someone may well say, "You have loyalty and I have works of the law, (circumcision, believing right doctrine, keeping dietary laws because Jews are being addressed ) ".

Now if someone had said the above, I would reply, "Show me your loyalty without the works, and I will show you my loyalty by my works."

And following:
James 2 Amplified by me
19You believe that God is one (works of the law, believe right doctrine). You do well; the demons also believe (works of the law, believe right doctrine), and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that loyalty without action is useless? (Absolutely) 21Was not Abraham our father justified by action when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that loyalty was working with his action, and as a result of the action, loyalty was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by action and not by loyalty alone. 25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by action when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also loyalty without action is dead.

So James was fighting the Judaisers! They were claiming belief in right doctrine was sufficient!

Rita G. · Mar 3, 2018

Hi Sam,
I really don’t understand your question, but the Bible is a book about the redemptive program for ISRAEL. God in his kindness has made a provision for gentiles to be saved beginning with the Apostle Paul in Acts Ch 9 and his epistles (Romans-Philemon) apply to us . . TODAY.

The whole bible is FOR you, but the whole bible is not TO YOU.

ronandcarol · Mar 3, 2018

Paul vs James who is right?
They are both 100% correct. We are saved by faith. AND, when we are saved by faith, that automatically produces in us good works.
It says in the Bible that by ourselves we can do nothing! But with the help of the Holy Spirit we can do good works all day long. It is by our works that they will know we are God's Children, and heirs with Christ.
ronandcarol

justbyfaith · Mar 3, 2018

@Rita G. and others, think on these scriptures:

2 Timothy 3:16, All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Romans 9:30-33, Romans 10:2-4,

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith, But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; as it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed...For I bear Israel record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to EVERY ONE that believeth.

So, you say, Israel has a different way to salvation than Gentiles, of faith + works. I say that Israel's method will not avail for them, in going about to establish their own righteousness they are

justbyfaith · Mar 3, 2018

not submitting to the righteousness of God. Christ is the end of the law (or works righteousness) for righteousness to EVERY ONE THAT BELIEVETH. This would apply whether you are Jew or Gentile. See also Romans 11:5-6, which shows that as pertaining to what saves us, grace and works are mutually exclusive, and the prescribed method is grace. This is written in the authoritative word of God, which does not ever truly contradict itself.

AFrazier · Mar 3, 2018

Rita G. said:
James is written to Jews and NEVER EVEN MENTIONS gentiles.
OK, Your Righteousness?
Now, please tell us all about how righteous you are.

Again, incorrect. It's written to Christians. And in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, free nor bond, male nor female. His audience may have been culturally Jewish, but they were Christians.

justbyfaith · Mar 3, 2018

btw, @Rita G. I reject man's interpretation when I find the Bible says anything different. I am taught by the word of the Lord, not the words of men. Galatians 1:11-12.

justbyfaith · Mar 3, 2018

We are declared and made righteous through faith in Jesus' blood, this righteousness is not from the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. See Philippians 3:9.

bugkiller · Mar 3, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
You seemed to have dropped out for opposite reasons to me.

The situation can be more easily understood if we remember that in the ancient near east, ANE, pistes is translated as loyalty, not belief.

So if a person is loyal to Christ, he has switched from serving mammon, loving self, to serving God, loving others as ourselves.

This helps in making us realize that repentance is not a change from unbelief that Jesus is messiah, to belief. It is a change from selfish living to unselfish living, laying down our lives for others. Mammon is selfish living. Giving up all your possessions frees you from mammon. That is the clear message of the text.

Is also clear that no one has repented, all are still unsaved.

It is not about me.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Mar 3, 2018

AFrazier said:
Works of love. Read my post, #172. I think the scriptures provided give a good enough example for you to extrapolate a working list, if that's what you think you need.

Thank you for your general statement which means nothing to me.

bugkiller

Wordkeeper · Mar 3, 2018

bugkiller said:
It is not about me.

bugkiller

When faith is viewed as loyalty, works is very clearly understood as response.

You asked the question what works looks like :

Works looks like different things in different situations.

When God promised to give Abraham a son, the required response in order to make Abraham's behavior acceptable was belief. So Abram believed God and it was entered into the accounts books as a credit entry. It was a real credit, not imputed. Abraham was justified, found acceptable to be allowed entry into the category called God's People. Paul uses this text to argue against the Judaisers, that Abraham was justified before circumcision, a work of the law.

When God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, the required response in order to make Abraham's behavior acceptable was obedience. So Abraham obeyed God and his loyalty was completed, perfected. James uses Scripture to show Judaisers the need to perfect belief into action. Belief in shema wasn't enough.

Hope this is relevant and meets your need for a lucid and cogent answer.

AFrazier · Mar 4, 2018

bugkiller said:
Thank you for your general statement which means nothing to me.

bugkiller

It wasn't a "general statement" the first time. Don't be such a tool.

ToBeLoved · Mar 4, 2018

Rita G. said:
Hi Sam,
I really don’t understand your question, but the Bible is a book about the redemptive program for ISRAEL. God in his kindness has made a provision for gentiles to be saved beginning with the Apostle Paul in Acts Ch 9 and his epistles (Romans-Philemon) apply to us . . TODAY.

The whole bible is FOR you, but the whole bible is not TO YOU.

You don't understand the Bible then.

Have you read Romans 4, 5, 6 and 7?

It's pretty clear that the New Covenant is for all people. This is really an incorrect way of seeing the Bible.

It is a PROGRESSION of God's plan. Not an 'add-on' to a previous plan.

ToBeLoved · Mar 4, 2018

AFrazier said:
Again, incorrect. It's written to Christians. And in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, free nor bond, male nor female. His audience may have been culturally Jewish, but they were Christians.

I disagree with this. James and Peter's primary ministry was to Jews and in Jerusalem. To not realize who their audience is (Jews that we under the Old Covenant and then became followers of Christ and the New Covenant) leads to error.

You are right in that under the New Covenant there is neither Jew nor Greek in that Jesus saves all people and that Jesus doesn't see a difference.

But not realizing that a person coming from an Old Covenant belief and then to Christ under the New Covenant that their is not a need for more understanding about how the Old Covenant relates to and is different from the New Covenant is much different than a new gentile believer who is and never has been under the Old Covenant.

AFrazier · Mar 4, 2018

ToBeLoved said:
I disagree with this. James and Peter's primary ministry was to Jews and in Jerusalem. To not realize who their audience is (Jews that we under the Old Covenant and then became followers of Christ and the New Covenant) leads to error.

You are right in that under the New Covenant there is neither Jew nor Greek in that Jesus saves all people and that Jesus doesn't see a difference.

But not realizing that a person coming from an Old Covenant belief and then to Christ under the New Covenant that their is not a need for more understanding about how the Old Covenant relates to and is different from the New Covenant is much different than a new gentile believer who is and never has been under the Old Covenant.

Please note that I acknowledged James' audience may have been culturally Jewish. Nevertheless, James was still talking to Christians. In particular, he was talking to Christians who were under the impression that belief alone was enough, and that works were not required, which is far from the typical perspective of a Jew under the law of Moses. This misunderstanding of Paul's message was typical of non-Jewish Christians, and often criticized by Jewish Christians, who criticized even Paul himself. And so James is clarifying that works of love are absolutely required, because lacking them, your faith is dead.

Wordkeeper · Mar 4, 2018

AFrazier said:
Please note that I acknowledged James' audience may have been culturally Jewish. Nevertheless, James was still talking to Christians. In particular, he was talking to Christians who were under the impression that belief alone was enough, and that works were not required, which is far from the typical perspective of a Jew under the law of Moses. This misunderstanding of Paul's message was typical of non-Jewish Christians, and often criticized by Jewish Christians, who criticized even Paul himself. And so James is clarifying that works of love are absolutely required, because lacking them, your faith is dead.

Nevertheless, the interlocutor was hiding behind his works of the law, probably his confession of the shema:

James 2:14-23
14What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath loyalty, but have not works? can that loyalty save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food, 16and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so loyalty, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

18Yea, a man will say, Thou hast loyalty, and I have works of the law, belief, good doctrine (sola fide adherent?!), I confess God is one...

Show me thy loyalty apart from thy proof of this loyalty , and I by my proof will show thee my loyalty. 19Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that loyalty apart from evidence is barren? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by evidence, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Thou seest that loyalty wrought with his proof, and by proof was faith made perfect;23and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God.

A major portion of Jesus's rebukes are against the Jews under Moses giving primacy to works of the law, to the detriment of the greater issues.

Matthew 23:23
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You pay tithes of mint, dill, and cummin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

bugkiller · Mar 4, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
When faith is viewed as loyalty, works is very clearly understood as response.

You asked the question what works looks like :

Works looks like different things in different situations.

When God promised to give Abraham a son, the required response in order to make Abraham's behavior acceptable was belief. So Abram believed God and it was entered into the accounts books as a credit entry. It was a real credit, not imputed. Abraham was justified, found acceptable to be allowed entry into the category called God's People. Paul uses this text to argue against the Judaisers, that Abraham was justified before circumcision, a work of the law.

When God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, the required response in order to make Abraham's behavior acceptable was obedience. So Abraham obeyed God and his loyalty was completed, perfected. James uses Scripture to show Judaisers the need to perfect belief into action. Belief in shema wasn't enough.

Hope this is relevant and meets your need for a lucid and cogent answer.

Not unless you claim to be Abraham. But thanks anyway.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Mar 4, 2018

AFrazier said:
It wasn't a "general statement" the first time. Don't be such a tool.

Thanks for the typo. I do not extrapolate (assume) general statements. Neither did I respond to post 172.

bugkiller

ToBeLoved · Mar 4, 2018

AFrazier said:
Please note that I acknowledged James' audience may have been culturally Jewish. Nevertheless, James was still talking to Christians. In particular, he was talking to Christians who were under the impression that belief alone was enough, and that works were not required, which is far from the typical perspective of a Jew under the law of Moses. This misunderstanding of Paul's message was typical of non-Jewish Christians, and often criticized by Jewish Christians, who criticized even Paul himself. And so James is clarifying that works of love are absolutely required, because lacking them, your faith is dead.

Christianity was very new and these were Jewish believers who had followed the law their entire life.

Paul vs James who is right?

Child of the Living God

Newbie

Active Member

Active Member

justified sinner

justified sinner

Well-Known Member

justified sinner

justified sinner

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency