Paul the heretic??

[Strong in Him]

True, Peter began teaching the new gospel about the resurrected Christ on Pentacost. Paul, a sacrifice minded Jew and citizen of the Pagan, Roman world, expanded upon the new gospel received from Peter after Pauls conversion to the movement. . The original gospel, salvation by faith, was effectively overwritten and replaced by the theoretical gospel that Jesus was a human sacrifice to atone for sin. T

No.

Prior to John the Baptist, people had not had prophets, or heard the word of the Lord, for about 400 years. They may well have wondered where God had gone, or if he still cared. Even though they still had their law, synagogues and, I think, temple, there was apparently no one to bring them a word from God.
With the arrival of Jesus, everything changed. God himself had come into his world, and was announcing the arrival of kingdom of God, and the new covenant which had been prophesied by Jeremiah.
This new beginning, new way, was announced by John the Baptist who baptised people for the forgiveness of their sins. They still had the Jewish law at that point; forgiveness was obtained by sacrifice, not baptism. Yet John baptised and told them to renounce their sins and prepare for someone who was coming and would baptise them with his Holy Spirit.

Then Jesus came and began teaching that the kingdom of God was among them. He also taught, and showed them, what life in this kingdom was to look like.
Previously, people had heard the word of God through the mouths of the prophets. They approached prophets when they needed to hear what God was saying to them. Jesus taught that they could hear it for themselves, that if they went into a room to pray in secret, God would hear their prayers. The Jews needed to have a group of 10 people to form a synagogue so that they could worship God; Jesus said that where 2 or 3 were gathered, he would be there with them.
Jesus taught people to pray to God, directly, calling him Abba, Father - though Abba is best translated "daddy". The Jews had a law which said "an eye for an eye", in other words, if you are going to take revenge, only hurt them back as much as they hurt you. Jesus said that in the kingdom of God, people should not judge one another, should love their enemies and that even thinking bad things was as bad as murder. Jesus not only taught people that God was personal, loved them, cared for them and could answer their prayers; he showed them. He healed, listened to, and valued, those on the edges of society, and taught people to do likewise. He forgave people their sins, and told them that they, too, needed to forgive, even their enemies - that God would forgive them in the same way that they forgave others.
The Jews had a law about sacrificing an animal, shedding its blood, to atone for sin; they needed a priest to do this and intercede for them. Jesus taught that his blood was of the New Covenant for the forgiveness of sins. The angel told Joseph, before Jesus' birth, that he would forgive people their sins, and John the Baptist called him the Lamb of God who would take away the sins of the world. As time went on, Jesus began to explain to those closest to him that he, whom they had recognised as the Messiah, would have to suffer and die. This was not a tragedy or random, senseless killing; he was the Good Shepherd who was laying down his life for the sheep, John 10:11. He had come to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10, to give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45 and his blood would be shed for the forgiveness of sins, Matthew 26:28.

This was all planned from the beginning, but Jesus did not proclaim it from the beginning of his ministry - people wouldn't have been able to grasp it. He needed first to show them that God was with them, loved, cared for and wanted to forgive them. He needed to teach that a personal relationship with God - one that was not dependent on prophets and priests as mediators - was possible. And to teach, and show, them what life would be like in God's kingdom; sickness healed, demons driven out and overcome, people loving, forgiving each other and praying and talking directly with God, who was king and would rule in his kingdom but was still their Father. When Jesus had taught this, revealed God, and himself as the Messiah, he went to the cross to achieve reconciliation between man and God.

The religion of Jesus was replaced by a religion about Jesus as a ransom to a Satan God of this world.

So you think that Satan won at the cross; that Jesus had been overcome by the devil and sacrificed to him? If the whole world was being held hostage by Satan and Jesus was the ransom, to who was that ransom paid? Satan? That would mean that Satan was providing a way for people to be released from his grasp and influence. It would also mean that Satan had so much power over Jesus that he was able to demand that he be killed, as a ransom, to release people from his (Satan's) control. No! Apart from the fact that that makes no sense, Jesus demonstrated clearly that he had power over Satan. He defeated him in the wilderness and drove demons out of people - demons who had caused destruction and chaos in their lives for years.
Jesus himself taught that he had come to be a ransom for many and was the Good Shepherd who chose to lay down his life for the sheep. This was in his control; no one made him do it. He would lay it down and then he would receive it back again.
Jesus'death would make it possible for people to receive forgiveness and eternal life. The wages of sin is death, Romans 3:23, but people did not have to be eternally separated from God after Jesus came and after the cross.

You have said that you are saved; what are you saved from, and who were you saved by?

 

[Colter]

Y'know. I see you making a lot of statements, but providing no sources for your alternative views. Why would God entrust His full plan to the Israelite people before Christ. He wouldn't, and He didn't. And why was that, Colter?

The answer is in Isaiah 48:1-11. Since you like esoteric material, see how this strikes your fancy, Colter.

So, of course, when Jesus finally showed up, the Jewish People had a difficult time wrapping their minds around His divinity, similar to many of us today. And I'm sure that the Lord has many more surprises up His sleeve for the rest of humanity, but most likely those surprises won't be found in the Urantia book.

2PhiloVoid

I assume the audience has a basic understanding of the current Bible book list. For the Jews God is One, Yahweh. They didn't expect a Son of God incarnating from heaven who was divine. And they certainly didn't have a theory that the expected Messiah would become a human sacrifice. I don't need to quote what's not there.

I agree with your point, Abram had faith in a promise that he didn't understand, but he did have faith.

 

[Colter]

is this not the Gospel of the kingdom?

Revelation 14:6 (KJV)
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Revelation 14:7 (NKJV)
7 saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."



Revelation 14:8 (NKJV)
8 And another angel followed, saying, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

Revelation 14:9-10 (NKJV)
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.



. Revelation 14:13 (NKJV)
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."

Revelation 14:14 (NKJV)
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.

Revelation 14:15 (NKJV)
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."

No.

 

[Colter]

No.

Prior to John the Baptist, people had not had prophets, or heard the word of the Lord, for about 400 years. They may well have wondered where God had gone, or if he still cared. Even though they still had their law, synagogues and, I think, temple, there was apparently no one to bring them a word from God.
With the arrival of Jesus, everything changed. God himself had come into his world, and was announcing the arrival of kingdom of God, and the new covenant which had been prophesied by Jeremiah.
This new beginning, new way, was announced by John the Baptist who baptised people for the forgiveness of their sins. They still had the Jewish law at that point; forgiveness was obtained by sacrifice, not baptism. Yet John baptised and told them to renounce their sins and prepare for someone who was coming and would baptise them with his Holy Spirit.

Then Jesus came and began teaching that the kingdom of God was among them. He also taught, and showed them, what life in this kingdom was to look like.
Previously, people had heard the word of God through the mouths of the prophets. They approached prophets when they needed to hear what God was saying to them. Jesus taught that they could hear it for themselves, that if they went into a room to pray in secret, God would hear their prayers. The Jews needed to have a group of 10 people to form a synagogue so that they could worship God; Jesus said that where 2 or 3 were gathered, he would be there with them.
Jesus taught people to pray to God, directly, calling him Abba, Father - though Abba is best translated "daddy". The Jews had a law which said "an eye for an eye", in other words, if you are going to take revenge, only hurt them back as much as they hurt you. Jesus said that in the kingdom of God, people should not judge one another, should love their enemies and that even thinking bad things was as bad as murder. Jesus not only taught people that God was personal, loved them, cared for them and could answer their prayers; he showed them. He healed, listened to, and valued, those on the edges of society, and taught people to do likewise. He forgave people their sins, and told them that they, too, needed to forgive, even their enemies - that God would forgive them in the same way that they forgave others.

The Jews had a law about sacrificing an animal, shedding its blood, to atone for sin; they needed a priest to do this and intercede for them. Jesus taught that his blood was of the New Covenant for the forgiveness of sins. The angel told Joseph, before Jesus' birth, that he would forgive people their sins, and John the Baptist called him the Lamb of God who would take away the sins of the world. As time went on, Jesus began to explain to those closest to him that he, whom they had recognised as the Messiah, would have to suffer and die. This was not a tragedy or random, senseless killing; he was the Good Shepherd who was laying down his life for the sheep, John 10:11. He had come to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10, to give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45 and his blood would be shed for the forgiveness of sins, Matthew 26:28.

This was all planned from the beginning, but Jesus did not proclaim it from the beginning of his ministry - people wouldn't have been able to grasp it. He needed first to show them that God was with them, loved, cared for and wanted to forgive them. He needed to teach that a personal relationship with God - one that was not dependent on prophets and priests as mediators - was possible. And to teach, and show, them what life would be like in God's kingdom; sickness healed, demons driven out and overcome, people loving, forgiving each other and praying and talking directly with God, who was king and would rule in his kingdom but was still their Father. When Jesus had taught this, revealed God, and himself as the Messiah, he went to the cross to achieve reconciliation between man and God.



So you think that Satan won at the cross; that Jesus had been overcome by the devil and sacrificed to him? If the whole world was being held hostage by Satan and Jesus was the ransom, to who was that ransom paid? Satan? That would mean that Satan was providing a way for people to be released from his grasp and influence. It would also mean that Satan had so much power over Jesus that he was able to demand that he be killed, as a ransom, to release people from his (Satan's) control. No! Apart from the fact that that makes no sense, Jesus demonstrated clearly that he had power over Satan. He defeated him in the wilderness and drove demons out of people - demons who had caused destruction and chaos in their lives for years.
Jesus himself taught that he had come to be a ransom for many and was the Good Shepherd who chose to lay down his life for the sheep. This was in his control; no one made him do it. He would lay it down and then he would receive it back again.
Jesus'death would make it possible for people to receive forgiveness and eternal life. The wages of sin is death, Romans 3:23, but people did not have to be eternally separated from God after Jesus came and after the cross.

You have said that you are saved; what are you saved from, and who were you saved by?

Good post! Im saved from death by faith in God. I never said Satan won. I said man never was hostage to Satan, no ransom needed! I agree with much of your post, I marked in red what I agree with, very well done! The only thing that is not true is blood sacrifice. God has always been forgiving, it's man that changes not God. The Jews concept of blood sacrifice was ordinary, evolutionary human religion. The reformer Moses instituted blood sacrifice in the place of the previous practice of human sacrifice. Followers of Moses revered him, the rules he instituted became sacred later and eventually The Word of God. Then in Babylon the OT was rewritten and vastly exaggerated, leaving future generations with confused and erroneous expectations of the fulfillment of Gods promise.

Because Jesus was very different than the expected deliverer, realizing that he wasn't that Messiah, Jesus left it up to his father to guide matters as the Jews were un-chosen and the light was given on to other people.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I assume the audience has a basic understanding of the current Bible book list. For the Jews God is One, Yahweh. They didn't expect a Son of God incarnating from heaven who was divine. And they certainly didn't have a theory that the expected Messiah would become a human sacrifice. I don't need to quote what's not there.

I agree with your point, Abram had faith in a promise that he didn't understand, but he did have faith.

Right. The Jews didn't expect a Son of God, for the reasons I just referred to above: God purposely withheld the specifics of His plans for His Messiah because He knew He couldn't fully entrust those plans to His own chosen people. In fact, the OT is replete with this motif, which comes up again and again, setting a prophetic pattern as to how God would deal with His people, the Jews. And this is why when Jesus "popped up" on the scene in Judea 2,000 years ago, they didn't recognize him (as the Gospels--and Peter and Paul--attest, and thus fulfilling the pattern of OT prophecy).

But, if you'd rather go with your Urantia interpretation, I can't stop you. I wish you wouldn't. I closed the door on Urantia years ago when I learned that the writer/musician--of a few of my all time favorite classic rock songs--became a Christian after having left the Urantia Book behind, along with several other Eastern style philosophies. (I'm referring to Kerry Livgren by the way, formerly of the band Kansas; he's the one who wrote the songs, "Dust in the Wind," and "Carry on Wayward Son.")

So, it's not your fault that I won't accept the Urantia Book's "proposals," but rather it is due to the orchestration of events and meanings in my own life that have effectively closed the door for me in that direction and opened it towards an appreciation of a more traditional approach to Christian faith.

Anyway. I in no way intend to knock you down as a fellow believer, Colter. I respect your intelligence, because I've seen it at work over the past few years here in various places on these forums. And I'm glad you're here to interact with and have discussions about things of faith, even if there is a disagreement between us about the meaning of Christ's Atonement on the Cross and/or Paul's place in the scheme of the eternal Gospel of Christ.

BTW, I like that hat of yours ...

Blessings,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Strong in Him]

I said man never was hostage to Satan, no ransom needed!

The wages of sin is death, spiritual death is eternal separation from God.
Jesus said he came to give his life as a ransom for many. If he said a ransom was needed, it was needed. He wouldn't have gone through that agony unnecessarily.

I agree with much of your post, I marked in red what I agree with, very well done!

Thank you.

The only thing that is not true is blood sacrifice. God has always been forgiving, it's man that changes not God. The Jews concept of blood sacrifice was ordinary, evolutionary human religion. The reformer Moses instituted blood sacrifice in the place of the previous practice of human sacrifice.

Sacrifices didn't begin with Moses.
God actually made the first sacrifice in the Garden of Eden - he made clothes for Adam and Eve out of animal skins to cover their nakedness and hide their shame. So this obviously involved him killing an animal.
Abel's sacrifice was accepted by God because he offered animals, not vegetables. Job, who may have lived around the time of Noah/Abraham, offered sacrifices daily for his children in case they had sinned. Noah offered burnt offerings to God, Genesis 8:20. In. Noah's case they seem to have been thank offerings rather than sin offerings, but even so.

Followers of Moses revered him, the rules he instituted became sacred later and eventually The Word of God.

The Bible says that these laws were given by God himself; the word of God, given when Moses met with him on the mountain.

Then in Babylon the OT was rewritten and vastly exaggerated, leaving future generations with confused and erroneous expectations of the fulfillment of Gods promise.

I don't believe God would allow his people to be misled.

Because Jesus was very different than the expected deliverer, realizing that he wasn't that Messiah, Jesus left it up to his father to guide matters as the Jews were un-chosen and the light was given on to other people.

Jesus revealed himself, to a few people, as the Messiah. But the Jews had their own ideas about what they expected the Messiah to be. This is why Jesus, mostly, told them not to tell anyone. The Jews expected their Messiah to be a warrior king who would save them from the Romans, and they might have tried to force Jesus into that role. Military action was not Jesus' purpose.

 

[Colter]

Hi, I noticed in one of your earlier post to someone that you are a Meathodist minister? I grew up in a Meathodist church.

I just wanted to point out one thing. You said you don't believe God would allow his people to be mislead, but God allowed Satan to fool the whole world, and he allowed him to continue to cause confusion up until Jesus finally dealt with him while on earth. The consequences of that latitude is still being felt. So that doesn't work, but I do understand and sympathize with the collective need for an "authority" in the Christion institution.

I believe the gospels were written well after Paul's atonement preacheing had influenced the memory of some of what Jesus said. Jesus left no writings behind and for good reason.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The whole world is deceived TODAY, and will be so until Yeshua returns.

 

[Strong in Him]

Hi, I noticed in one of your earlier post to someone that you are a Meathodist minister?

Hi,
Not exactly, I'm a Methodist lay preacher (not ordained.)

I just wanted to point out one thing. You said you don't believe God would allow his people to be mislead, but God allowed Satan to fool the whole world, and he allowed him to continue to cause confusion up until Jesus finally dealt with him while on earth.

Yes but I was referring to his own people; those he has chosen, led, called and saved, those who have his Spirit. God wants people to know him and to know the price that his Son paid for them. The devil does his best to mess that up, to feed people lies, to tell them they cannot trust the Bible or that if God were real he would end all suffering and sort out other things. I believe that if he can't stop people from reading the Bible or make us doubt it, he focuses on literal interpretation and academic arguments about creation, the end of the world, female ordination and other unimportant things, or he draws attention to church differences, dissatisfaction with the clergy etc - anything to keep Christians arguing and ignoring the real needs and lost condition of the rest of the world.

I believe the gospels were written well after Paul's atonement preacheing had influenced the memory of some of what Jesus said.

But like I've already said, they were preaching the cross before Paul was converted.

Jesus left no writings behind and for good reason.

But he actually made provision for the NT to be written. He told the disciples that the Holy Spirit would remind them of everything he had said and taught them, John 14:26, John 16:12-15. He also spent 40 days with them after the resurrection teaching them about the kingdom of God. After Pentecost, the Holy Spirit lived IN the disciples and could live in all believers.
The disciples began preaching the Gospel and taught what Jesus had taught, with the Holy Spirit in them to remind them. There were also plenty of people still around who must have met Jesus, been healed by him or heard him preach. Jesus taught, and healed, hundreds; they didn't all suddenly disappear from the country. Jews passed their faith, and many other things, on by word of mouth; they were very used to memorising and repeating facts, teachings and stories. No doubt after the crucifixion there were groups of people who would talk and say "do you remember when Jesus ......?"
The disciples were convinced that Jesus would return in their lifetime, and only began writing things down when persecution came and they might not be alive to teach these things to a new generation.

 

[Colter]

Hi,
Not exactly, I'm a Methodist lay preacher (not ordained.)



Yes but I was referring to his own people; those he has chosen, led, called and saved, those who have his Spirit. God wants people to know him and to know the price that his Son paid for them. The devil does his best to mess that up, to feed people lies, to tell them they cannot trust the Bible or that if God were real he would end all suffering and sort out other things. I believe that if he can't stop people from reading the Bible or make us doubt it, he focuses on literal interpretation and academic arguments about creation, the end of the world, female ordination and other unimportant things, or he draws attention to church differences, dissatisfaction with the clergy etc - anything to keep Christians arguing and ignoring the real needs and lost condition of the rest of the world.



But like I've already said, they were preaching the cross before Paul was converted.




But he actually made provision for the NT to be written. He told the disciples that the Holy Spirit would remind them of everything he had said and taught them, John 14:26, John 16:12-15. He also spent 40 days with them after the resurrection teaching them about the kingdom of God. After Pentecost, the Holy Spirit lived IN the disciples and could live in all believers.
The disciples began preaching the Gospel and taught what Jesus had taught, with the Holy Spirit in them to remind them. There were also plenty of people still around who must have met Jesus, been healed by him or heard him preach. Jesus taught, and healed, hundreds; they didn't all suddenly disappear from the country. Jews passed their faith, and many other things, on by word of mouth; they were very used to memorising and repeating facts, teachings and stories. No doubt after the crucifixion there were groups of people who would talk and say "do you remember when Jesus ......?"
The disciples were convinced that Jesus would return in their lifetime, and only began writing things down when persecution came and they might not be alive to teach these things to a new generation.

Ok, thanks for replying.

 

[Apple Sky]

For me, we either accept the Bible as the, written, word of God, or we reject it.

I quite agree from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Guojing]

How we read and understand the Bible - i.e literally, or in context with exegesis - is a slightly different topic. The subject under discussion in this other thread was, can Paul be trusted or did he preach a different Gospel?

Thoughts?

Paul taught us the need to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).

If you believe him, that means we are to recognize that all scripture is written FOR us, but not all scripture is written TO us or ABOUT us.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

can Paul be trusted or did he preach a different Gospel?

That's funny, accusing the guy of the "another gospel" scripture of preaching "another gospel"

good one.

 

[JSRG]

I quite agree from Genesis to Revelation.

Why did you bump a topic that no one has posted in for more than 8 years just to say that?

 

[Aaron112]

Why did you bump a topic that no one has posted in for more than 8 years just to say that?

Perversity ? (indicated in some or many other posts , original and bumped.)

 

[Aaron112]

God allowed Satan to fool the whole world, and he allowed him to continue to cause confusion up until Jesus finally dealt with him while on earth.

Oh, well, old news, rehashed.

Hasatan has caused more confusion today than yesterday, this month more than last month, this year more than last year, the last hundred years more than any hundred years in the past.

i.e. the confusion is prophesied in God's Word, and continually growing, widespread over all the earth, among all the people; almost even the few.

 

[Dan Perez]

It's not impossible.

Jesus promised us the Spirit, NOT a book (John 16:13).

Although Jesus often quoted from scriptures, Jesus also warned us that our righteousness should exceed that of scribes.(Matthew 5:20) and Jesus did not quote the entire scriptures, just select parts.

Prophesy and fulfillment of the Word being written in our minds and our hearts and NOT on a book (Jeremiah 31:33-34 and 1 John 2:27)

My own attestation that the Spirit does speak to me. Imparts to me teachings, ideas, I later found in the Bible, despite having never read those parts before! There were also select and NOT the entire scriptures as in John 16:13.

I'm not saying the Bible is evil. But written by scribes as it is, it cannot be expected to be perfect either.

Facts speak for itself. If the Bible is perfect, there should only be one Christian denomination.

A perfectly written literature like a repair manual cannot be interpreted in many different ways. If it can be interpreted differently, then you'll never be able to fix anything with it.

The Bible did fulfill Christ's goal which is to divide humanity through religion.(Matthew 10:34-35) After all, it was Christ that inspired the creation of the Bible and the Christian religion.

And Rom 1:1 says Paul a slave of Christ Jesus , a called apostle having been SEPARATED // APHORIZO means LIMITED for

God,s gosple"s.

dan p

 

[Aaron112]

It's not impossible.

Totally impossible.

 

[Apple Sky]

Perversity ? (indicated in some or many other posts , original and bumped.)

Are you saying that I'm perverse ?

 

[Aaron112]

Are you saying that I'm perverse ?

Many posts are perverse, there's no standard of truth kept on any forum I've seen for years.
If any post is contrary to /opposed to/ Scripture, especially willingly and wittingly, it is perverse. bad. in error.