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Hopeful that your working knowledge of the canon is good enough to correctly evaluate non-canonical writings,Well, I can't say I am offended by Paul's teachings, just curious why some people view him as a false prophet. It was kinda of a shock for me and I wanted to know what were the reasons for these beliefs. So many writings were left out of the Bible too that I am curious about. Some of them that I have read, I'm not sure why they were left out, so I am glad as many made it in to the canon as did. Personally, I would like to read anything I can about those times and peoples views when Jesus was here and the first 2 or 3 centuries after Jesus sacrfice on the cross. That`s just me.
And even many Jews who profess faith in Christ reject the majority of Christ's NT revelation given personally to the apostles, because they want Christ on their own terms, rather than on his terms given in his NT revelation.Paul doesn't say that good works are detrimental to salvation, nor does he say that believers won't perform good works. He says that the keeping of the law does not merit salvation and that faith alone saves, excluding works of the law (Rom 3:21-28). After being saved, believers can't help but perform good works. Anyone who thinks that faith alone implies the liberty to sin needs to read the Epistle to the Galatians very carefully.
The Gospels also exclude good works as meriting salvation (Matthew 7:22-23, Luke 5:32, John 15:16 [which says that the elect bear fruit after they have been called].) The Gospels also exclude any free will in regards to salvation, no one has yet given me a good argument against John 15:5 which crushes free will into the dust. Obviously if we don't have a free will, it follows that works do not merit salvation.
As to why people try and discredit the blessed Apostle Paul, probably for the same reasons people argue against Christianity in general. The Jews in particular seem to have a problem with Paul, probably because he crushes their fabled delusions about the keeping of the law leading to salvation. Then there are those Christians who claim to follow Paul's teachings but ignore everything he said about this topic, (RCC/EO [love you guys and your still my fellow Christians, but your wrong on this one], but especially any kind of Arminian theology which takes it even further than Rome/Constantinople).
I don't think James says that works save.Then there are some who point to one verse of a disputed epistle written well after the rest of the Canon, that this one verse overthrows the rest of Scripture. I know of Reformed and Lutheran scholars that try to reconcile the two, you can't. The Scriptures say that faith alone saves, this one little verse in James say works save. [The best that can be done is to try and understand that James was probably talking to Christians who thought you could be saved and then live a degenerate lifestyle since your saved by faith alone without works.] There's always been disputes about James since the 3rd century (it was probably written well into the second century).
Agreed!The evangelicals in particular are good at this, saying it is your decision which saves you. Yes my blackened sin filled heart given to Jesus which saves me (great birthday present)...right...It is by grace alone through faith alone, without human works and without human free will. Something Paul understood and something which the world still rages against.
Beautifully stated!Actually, Paul banned all motivations and desires which would culminate in the commission of sinful acts, while stating clearly that in order for us to perform righteous acts, the motivations for those acts had to be righteous in-and-of themselves:
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)
Under the heading 'the acts of the sinful nature' we find every desire and motivation which has culminated in the commission of a sinful act. And under the heading 'the fruit of the Spirit' we find the motivations which are necessary if we are to truly perform acts of righteousness. The old saying, "He did all the right things, but for all the wrong reasons," needs to be taken to heart by those of us who are Christians. You cannot pick good fruit from a tree whose roots are planted in poisoned soil, and you cannot perform righteous acts while using the motivations which are clearly part of the sinful nature. In order for the acts to be righteous, the impetus for those actions must also be righteous, and that can only occur when that impetus is the motivations listed as the fruit of the Spirit.
There were those who opposed Paul because he stood against compulsory circumcision for all Gentile males who converted to Christianity, as well as not requiring Gentiles to adopt purely Judaic societal laws. But they never accused Paul of being immoral, or of condoning immorality. His epistles are quite clear in their telling the new Gentile converts that there were actions which, even if they had participated in their commission before they converted to Christianity, they were now to see as offlimits to them.
But he not only told them what they could and could not do as Christians, but also told them how to accomplish this. Obeying a set of laws wouldn't work. As the heart went, the body followed, and if the heart was led by the sinful nature, all the laws in the world wouldn't do any good. So he realized that the sinful nature would have to be 'reined in', and that would take the direct intervention of the Spirit, and then the motivations which are recognized even today as the source of all that is good needed to be implanted in the converts, and that would also take the direct intervention of the Spirit.
So Paul was not against morality; far from it. He simply knew that there was a way in which that morality could become an integral part of the new convert's life and everyday experience. And that way was through their putting their trust in God, and by so doing opening their hearts up to his ability to 'reprogram' their desires and motivations so that those desires and motivations could conform to what God wanted of them.
And they've been grinding that axe for millennia, in spite of Jesus' NT revelation personally given to the apsotles, including Paul.Religion?
The non-Christian Jews and Muslims are the ones that view Saul/Paul as a "false Apostle", tho there are some in the Messianic Jewish sect that have an axe to grind with him concerning the OC Mosaic Law and Commandments
http://www.christianforums.com/t7702887/#post61803477
That's sad, because Paul received his revelation from Jesus Christ as did the other apostles.That's not entirely accurate. I'm neither Jew nor Muslim,but rather, a Christian who no longer views Paul's words as an authority.
We have quotes from Jesus regarding Paul, just as we have quotes from Jesus regarding the rest of the apostles.Well, That's your opinion... ;-) actually, I feel absolutely no loss. I prefer to follow Christ, not Paul. Besides,
we don't have a quote from God telling us that Paul would speak God's words. Paul never walked with Christ like John did. I have many reasons for my belief, but the result is a more solid foundation for it.
But "it's God believing, bible believing Christians" who evidently don't accept the authority of the NT word of God written, and feel free to challenge its veracity and authority.Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
"I had no idea so many Christians had problems with Paul til now!"
Well...there are reasons why many question the apostle Paul...it's not just a bunch of people who are out to discredit the bible...it's God believing, bible believing christians who honestly question some of his teachings...I'm glad people give their reasons...it what I wanted to know
"Interesting" approach.Even though I was taught for decades that Paul's words were infallible, none of his teachings ever "felt" right. I still believed them because I thought I had to. I'm older now, and have a very different view of the world and God's role in it.
For starters Paul seemed to have a haughty personality. His writing style gave the understanding that he
thought very highly of his presumed commission, while interjected with an occasional feigned humility.
Aw, cheese Louise.Also, when faced with possible execution, he didn't behave as a resigned martyr, but rather used his ties to Rome to get out of it. He didn't behave as Christ did to the cross.
So Paul was lying?He took a large space to fill with all the awful things he endured, yet most of these things
I haven't seen other testimony about
That's called the spirit of the anti-Christ; i.e., liars, deceivers and many (1Jn 2:18, 22; 2Jn 7).I have heard Paul refered to as antichrist.
Do you remember in the news Pope Jean Paul on his deathbed saying he feared George Bush was the antichrist ?
Yet he himself was accused of the same.
I remember reading that some of the apostles were Pharisees (John & Paul)
and wrote jewish traditions rather than chris'ts message, Paul being the greatest of these.
I read also that false prophets were put to death by law.
Prophets and seers lived off the king's money
and if their prophesies could be shown to be untrue they were killed by law.
Here I simply relate what little Ive read.
one author writes
this author insist that John was a spy, a pharasee, and traitor to the true gospel
Perhaps you should review Mt 23, where Jesus exclaims:In addition to the reasons I stated earlier, I would also add that Paul's teachings just don't seem to follow what Christ has said. He seems more demanding,
I'm just a regular persona and a follower of Christ, but this is how I see it.
. . .Paul was right to preach against turning back to Judaism.
The Mosaic Law carries with it a curse for not obeying every commandment. The curses are in Deuteronomy 28:15-68. Jesus bore the curse of the Law on Himself so that we wouldn't have to. (Galatians 3:13) The Jews of Paul's day had rejected Jesus and thus bore the curse on themselves.
Had the Christians subjected themselves to the Law, they would have fallen under the curse of the Law. That curse came upon the Jewish people shortly after Peter was crucified upside down. After Cestius turned back from Jerusalem, the Church had fled from Jerusalem like Lot fled from Sodom. Then the city was sieged by Vespasian and Titus, sealing a most terrible destruction upon the Jewish people, in Jerusalem an throughout the Roman Empire.
If we Christians turn back to the Mosaic Law, we nullify the fact that Christ took the curse on Himself and thereby render us punishable by the curse. That is because 'all men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.'
You're misinterpreting those verse. Christ never says faith must be accompanied by works. James is speaking of the horizontal effect of a vertical faith in Christ. In other words, our faith will produce works not because they are necessary for salvation, but because of our love for God.
Zanting said:I do so appreciate the perspectives presented here and like GloryBe is saying...I am learning and hope always to gain a deeper more understanding of the canon as a whole. God wants me to learn and get to know him. I wasn't attending a church or going to services or being witnessed to or anything when God came to me. But He filled me with a desire to learn everything I can starting with the canon and how it came to be His trusted word. And so my journey with God has begun and it has led me to other ancient texts as well.
It is also true that there are many different denominations and perspectives out there and God is asking me to learn. His guidance is what I am following. That's all. There is a lot of deception out there and I'm just following His path for me in seeking His truth. It may be that I will never become a member of any particular denomination...I'm leaving that in Gods hands as well. I trust Him. That's all. And posing questions to other christians is part of the learning process. CF is often where I begin, or I just read stuff...and sometimes I comment or offer support or my experience, but I don't like arguing so I don't do a lot of that anymore.
Anyway...hope that presents some context for responders. And thanks for being so open.
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