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but the verse you quoted, agrees with me, the circumcision were the Judaizers, Luke said so too in Acts 11.
That is one of the major problems with organized religious groups. They preach grace, practice and demand at least partial law. It nearly killed me. I no longer attend their confusion. I dare you to seriously listen and try to apply what they say and seriously study the Bible. You will have problems.That's a bit short-sighted. Paul meant much more than simply Jews when he used the term "circumcision". A careful reading of the entirety of his writings will show that he used the term to encompass all effort-based soteriological systems, not just the Jews. Most of what he wrote concerning "the circumcision" applies equally well to all other systems which require works to be saved. Sadly, there is just as much of a works-based soteriological emphasis within the Church as there ever was within the rabbinical system. And it is just as contrary to the Gospel as the Judaizers of Paul's day.
I didn't quote a verse. I mentioned reading ALL of Paul's writings which speak on the subject of "circumcision". If you're only interested in specific verses to support what you're saying, so be it. I wasn't speaking on any specific.
That's a bit short-sighted. Paul meant much more than simply Jews when he used the term "circumcision". A careful reading of the entirety of his writings will show that he used the term to encompass all effort-based soteriological systems, not just the Jews. Most of what he wrote concerning "the circumcision" applies equally well to all other systems which require works to be saved. Sadly, there is just as much of a works-based soteriological emphasis within the Church as there ever was within the rabbinical system. And it is just as contrary to the Gospel as the Judaizers of Paul's day.
[FONT="]Acts 21[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]
[FONT="]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT="]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets
Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.
[/FONT]
[FONT="] [FONT="]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.[/FONT]
Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT]
[FONT="]. [/FONT]
Anyone reading Acts 21-26 can see the facts!
Be blessed bro!
Now and then I do agree with something you are posting - and that is certainly a statement I do agree with.
in Christ,
Bob
Now and then I do agree with something you are posting - and that is certainly a statement I do agree with.
I am glad you agree with me,
Did Paul say in 1 Cor 9, he became as Jew for the gospel, .
Now and then I do agree with something you are posting - and that is certainly a statement I do agree with.
I agree that Acts 21-26 make the points clear to all regarding Paul's practices when it comes to the Law of God and how he defended and proclaimed those practices at each of his trials.
I find the actual Bible - in Acts 21-28 helpful in showing what Acts 21-28 says -- and this is what you were responding to ...
[FONT="]Acts 21[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]
[FONT="]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT="]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets
Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.
[/FONT]
[FONT="] [FONT="]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.[/FONT]
Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT]
Of course Paul was always a ew, he could not change that, but he put off Judaism, as per 1 cor 9.And at the temple hr became as a Jew for the reasons I showed you.1 Cor 9 does not say "I am not really a Jew" or "I am not actually a Pharisee".
In fact Paul when held under oath - and placed on trial swears before both gentiles and Jews - the following statement.
To Gentiles Paul said:
Acts 21:39 "But Paul said, "I am a Jew of Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no insignificant city; and I beg you, allow me to speak to the people."
Paul said to gentiles and Jews in Acts 22:3
"I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today.
Paul said to both gentiles and Jews in Acts 23:6
But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!"
Paul did not become a Jew when he converted to Christianity - he was already a Jew and kept proclaiming that point for years after his conversion.
you are doing it again you can highlight what you want, proof texting, but I proved the context, and why he said and did, and what he was about
What is a bit disturbing is that Acts 21:24 taken by itself doesn't tell the story properly. Verse 25 really does help. Saint Paul didn't "keep the customs" like refusing to eat with gentiles. Galatians chapter two tells us what saint Paul thought about that kind of religious hypocrisy. Acts 21:25 tells us that the folk talking to saint Paul didn't expect Gentiles to keep the customs or the law. There's no Sabbath keeping imposed on any gentile in this passage and no demand for gentiles to keep the law.
Saint Paul was no Messianic Jew no matter how much spin is put on Acts 21:24.
What is a bit disturbing is that Acts 21:24 taken by itself doesn't tell the story properly.
What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles.
[FONT="]Acts 21[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]
[FONT="]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT="]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets
Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”
[/FONT]
[FONT="] [FONT="]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]
Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT]
Clearly Paul was a Messianic Jew.
One who repeatedly declared himself to be a Jew - and who accepted Jesus of Nazareth as the true Messiah.
This is irrefutable.
in Christ,
Bob
Having said that - Paul would condemn fluff and puffery sorts of made up traditions of the magesterium - just as did Christ, while still affirming the actual moral law of God - and valid statements made by religious leaders.
Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.
[FONT="][FONT="]The elders consisting of scrib[FONT="]es and ph[FONT="]arise[FONT="]es [/FONT]are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium[FONT="].[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Matt 19
And someone came to Him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life? 17 And He said to him, Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 Then he *said to Him, Which ones? And Jesus said,
You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother;
and
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.[/FONT]
How can you just keep repeating this, once you have seen the facts?
you can post it 100 times, but everyone knows better.
The more expanded version of that post goes something like this --
Acts 21 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;
21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication."
...
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