Patriotism

[LovebirdsFlying]

On Facebook, I asked a question at a Conservative page, in response to one of those "Like this picture if you're proud to be an American" flag-waving images. I wanted to know, since Jesus died because God so loved the world, why patriotism is considered a Christian virtue. Jesus didn't die for only Americans. I made it clear that I am a Christian, but I don't see why patriotism is considered a Christian virtue. I don't get the connection. When I mentioned on my own page that I had asked this question, a Canadian friend agreed with me. He said, "As much as I love being Canadian, Heaven is my homeland, and I love it more."

That garnered a huge Amen from me! I feel the same way about being a citizen of both Heaven and the United States. I am a Christian first, and an American second. If I ever have to choose between the two, Jesus wins.

In response to my question, I received a "+1" from an atheist, and a "you're going to hell" from a foul-mouthed troll. At least I thought it was a troll. When I looked to see if there were more replies, I found that they had deleted my question. Apparently the only sentiment the owner of that page will allow to stand is, "I love this country, but I hate our current administration." At least we at CF do allow honest exchange of differing ideas!

So I'll ask it here. What do patriotism and Christianity have to do with each other? Do you have to be one to be the other? Why is America "better" or more "God blessed" than any other nation?

 

[Albion]

On Facebook, I asked a question at a Conservative page, in response to one of those "Like this picture if you're proud to be an American" flag-waving images. I wanted to know, since Jesus died because God so loved the world, why patriotism is considered a Christian virtue. Jesus didn't die for only Americans. I made it clear that I am a Christian, but I don't see why patriotism is considered a Christian virtue. I don't get the connection. When I mentioned on my own page that I had asked this question, a Canadian friend agreed with me. He said, "As much as I love being Canadian, Heaven is my homeland, and I love it more."

That garnered a huge Amen from me! I feel the same way about being a citizen of both Heaven and the United States. I am a Christian first, and an American second. If I ever have to choose between the two, Jesus wins.

In response to my question, I received a "+1" from an atheist, and a "you're going to hell" from foul-mouthed troll. At least I thought it was a troll. When I looked to see if there were more replies, I found that they had deleted my question. Apparently the only sentiment the owner of that page will allow to stand is, "I love this country, but I hate our current administration." At least we at CF do allow honest exchange of differing ideas!

So I'll ask it here. What do patriotism and Christianity have to do with each other? Do you have to be one to be the other? Why is America "better" or more "God blessed" than any other nation?

America does seem to have been blessed by God and it was founded with a commitment to religious liberty and to God that could not be said of every other nation. But I wouldn't call it a Christian virtue to be patriotic.

 

[football5680]

God has blessed our nation and we are the largest and most powerful Christian country in the world. Having patriotism does not conflict with religion.

 

[Albion]

God has blessed our nation and we are the largest and most powerful Christian country in the world. Having patriotism does not conflict with religion.

Agreed, but of course that was not the question.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Albion understands. I'm sure there is no conflict between the two, but some people seem to think, "America is the greatest country in the world, let's wave that flag," goes hand in hand with, "Glory to the King of Kings; Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God and is the way to salvation." Even though they don't contradict each other, is it necessary to be patriotic to be a Christian? My assertion is, no, simply because one does not have to be American to be Christian. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son.

 

[MrJim]

Funny thing about "patriotism"~it isn't limited to Christians nor Americans~it is a very worldly concept that somehow becomes "blessed" when Old Glory is put in the pulpit alongside the preacher.

I would suggest it can be or become idolatry.

 

[Albion]

Funny thing about "patriotism"~it isn't limited to Christians nor Americans~it is a very worldly concept that somehow becomes "blessed" when Old Glory is put in the pulpit alongside the preacher.

I would suggest it can be or become idolatry.

I don't think we need to go that far. While it may not be a "Christian" virtue to be patriotic, there's nothing amiss about Christians being patriotic or at least respectful of valid authority such as the Bible teaches and which a flag of one's nation displayed in church represents.

 

[MrJim]

I don't think we need to go that far. While it may not be a "Christian" virtue to be patriotic, there's nothing amiss about Christians being patriotic or at least respectful of valid authority such as the Bible teaches and which a flag of one's nation displayed in church represents.

Even where a nation is intentionally hostile against the Cross?

And the idolatry issue of nationalism/tribalism is greater than many think~I think many cannot separate the Cross from the Flag...and it's not only an American issue...and the tribalism involved is smashed by what the Scriptures say:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal3:28 NKJV

where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. Col3:11 NKJV

Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself. Phil3:17-21 NKJV


I'm not talking about some compromising ecumenical "just love Jesus" one-world church institution but something more than we current have...I expect it will only come from the fire of persecution.

 

[Albion]

Even where a nation is intentionally hostile against the Cross?

Perhaps, but I'd have to have the specifics.

And the idolatry issue of nationalism/tribalism is greater than many think~I think many cannot separate the Cross from the Flag...and it's not only an American issue.

Well, I'd say that that's an issue on its own, not directly connected to the merits of Patriotism or having flags in church.

 

[MrJim]

Perhaps, but I'd have to have the specifics.

I'm thinking historically to nations such as the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany or China..or perhaps even the USA sometime in the future..?

 

[Albion]

I'm thinking historically to nations such as the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany or China.

Okay. Given those examples, it would be hard to disagree.

 

[MrJim]

Okay. Given those examples, it would be hard to disagree.

Yes there is certainly a place to honor and respect the "powers that be"~even going beyond what some would consider acceptable--don't recall St Paul disrespecting the Roman Empire, his "country", though we'd consider Nero and his regime to be tyrannical.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Paul did say not to speak evil of our leaders, Acts 23:5--so I wonder, where does that leave Obama-bashing? (Sorry, had to point that out.)

 

[Sketcher]

On Facebook, I asked a question at a Conservative page, in response to one of those "Like this picture if you're proud to be an American" flag-waving images. I wanted to know, since Jesus died because God so loved the world, why patriotism is considered a Christian virtue. Jesus didn't die for only Americans.

What specific Facebook group is this? And who, if anyone was claiming that Jesus only died for Americans? Furthermore, who if anyone was claiming that such a belief is necessary to be patriotic?

He said, "As much as I love being Canadian, Heaven is my homeland, and I love it more."

I, as a patriotic American, agree with this. I don't believe that there is a conflict between patriotism in and of itself and Christianity.

Why is America "better" or more "God blessed" than any other nation?

I would say that there are some aspects of our culture which are better than the cultures of other nations. We embrace religious liberty - not all nations do that. We tend to be more open to international travelers than people in some other nations (this is what several international students have shared with me). Since we are a nation of immigrants (immigration is one of the cornerstones we BUILT it on), American nationalism is inclusive of racial and religious minorities, which is very different from nationalism in a number of other countries where this is not the case. We generally see each other as equals here, which translates into more respect for service employees than you will see in some other countries. And of course, we showed the world that the democratic republic was in fact viable in an age when autocracy was viewed as the way to go. The countries that transitioned from kingdoms and empires and dictatorships to representative republics have us to thank in part.

Paul did say not to speak evil of our leaders, Acts 23:5--so I wonder, where does that leave Obama-bashing? (Sorry, had to point that out.)

Paul was citing a law showing respect for a religious leader. Moses had to deal with various uprisings against him, but he was given the words of God. Likewise, the chief priests sat in Moses's seat and were to be given that respect (Matthew 23:2-3). Obama does not sit in Moses's seat. He is not a religous leader. Furthermore, the supreme law of the land in this country is the Constitution, not the word of Obama or any other President or public figure. As Chuck Baldwin put it:

America's "supreme Law" does not rest with any man or any group of men. America's "supreme Law" does not rest with the President, the Congress, or even the Supreme Court. In America, the U.S. Constitution is the "supreme Law of the Land." Under our laws, every governing official publicly promises to submit to the Constitution of the United States. Do readers understand the significance of this distinction? I hope so.

This means that, in America, the "higher powers" are not the men who occupy elected office; they are the tenets and principles set forth in the U.S. Constitution. Under our laws and form of government, it is the duty of every elected official to obey the U.S. Constitution (and his or her State constitution). Therefore, this is how Romans Chapter 13 reads to Americans:

"Let every soul be subject unto the [U.S. Constitution.] For there is no [Constitution] but of God: the [Constitution] that be [is] ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the [Constitution], resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For [the Constitution is] not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the [Constitution]? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For [the Constitution] is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for [the Constitution] beareth not the sword in vain: for [the Constitution] is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for [the Constitution is] God's minister, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."

Therefore, Obama is not above criticism. Neither was Bush.

 

[Albion]

Paul did say not to speak evil of our leaders, Acts 23:5--so I wonder, where does that leave Obama-bashing? (Sorry, had to point that out.)

It's regrettable. Unfortunately, the Democrats started that back in the Nixon era and then refined it to the high art it's become.

The fact that it also comes back at them is only to be expected, whether that's a good thing or bad.

However also, I missed the reasoning behind you saying you "had to point that out," considering that it is not the topic of this thread.

 

[BryanW92]

So I'll ask it here. What do patriotism and Christianity have to do with each other? Do you have to be one to be the other? Why is America "better" or more "God blessed" than any other nation?

Patriotism and Christianity have nothing to do with each other. One can be either, both, or neither.

But, the reason why Americans seem to tie them together is that in the American experience, we are a nation of ideas because we are not a single nationality, ethnicity, race, or anything else. This is a nation founded on principles only in a place that was foreign to all of our ancestors when they arrived here. That makes it unique in the world.

Christianity is also a faith of ideas. It is for all people who want it. There is no blood requirement and it crosses all languages and geographical boundaries.

So, the patriotic American believes in a nation built on universal ideas that would benefit all if they could live under them.

And the Christian believes the same thing about a way of life built on another set of universal ideas.

Our nation has a lot of people who consider themselves to be "above" nation or "above" religion. Their world is a place of grays where all morals are relative, all beliefs are equal, and all nations are irrelevant.

They look down on patriots and Christians because, in their mind, both are obsolete relics of an earlier time when nations and religions ruled over "reason" and transnationalism.

It isn't the patriot who equates nation with Christ. It is the person who is too "smart for all that silliness" who equates them.

 

[BryanW92]

Paul did say not to speak evil of our leaders, Acts 23:5--so I wonder, where does that leave Obama-bashing? (Sorry, had to point that out.)

The same place as Nixon-bashing, Ford-bashing, Reagan-bashing, Bush-bashing, Cheney-bashing, Quayle-bashing, Palin-bashing, and all the other bashing that the Leftists have taught us over the past 40 years. It took the Right a while to learn the Left's Alinsky tactics, but we can't argue with success.

 

[Albion]

The same place as Nixon-bashing, Ford-bashing, Reagan-bashing, Bush-bashing, Cheney-bashing, Quayle-bashing, Palin-bashing, and all the other bashing that the Leftists have taught us over the past 40 years. It took the Right a while to learn the Left's Alinsky tactics, but we can't argue with success.

Sad as this turn of events is, you understand quite well the history of it.

 

[eyeSalveRich]

why patriotism is considered a Christian virtue. Jesus didn't die for only Americans. I made it clear that I am a Christian, but I don't see why patriotism is considered a Christian virtue.

So I'll ask it here. What do patriotism and Christianity have to do with each other? Do you have to be one to be the other? Why is America "better" or more "God blessed" than any other nation?

Please see this thread, post #1, 2, and 8, especially #2, and #8. Ask yourself this. What would patriotism and faith in God have to do with each other if you were an Israelite at Mt. Sinai, crossing the Jordan, conquering the promise land, or travelling to Jerusalem to worship at the first feast of tabernacles at the new temple under Solomon? Would it not be hard to distinguish love of, and devotion to, ones country/kingdom and love of the King who is manifested in His kingdom, and instructs to seek first His kingdom? Hopefully you will read the thread posts above to see how really relevant this is.

In the movie Troy(2004) Prince Hector gave a speech to inspire his men before the first battle with the invading enemy. He said, "All my life I have lived by a code. And the code is simple. Honor the gods, love your woman, and defend your country." Change gods to God, and that is pretty good.

Mutual accountability in families, communities, and kingdoms is frequently shown in scripture. Mutual accountability in a kingdom is scarcely distinguishable from patriotism, if at all. But when country conflicts with God, God comes first. Rahab knew this.

Any nation is only as good or as blessed as the degree to which they are in conformance with the will of God.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Thanks for the replies so far.

This was the photo under which I posted the question. The page itself is called Mr. Conservative. I decided not to link it, in case someone on the page used profanity. In that case, linking the page itself would violate CF rules. My question has been removed, as you can well see if you find the page on Facebook. The "and GUNS" comment is the most recent to be allowed to stand, and mine was posted after that.

I mentioned Obama-bashing because I see so darn much of it. On the Mr. Conservative page, for one, every opportunity is being taken to state how awful he is. As I mentioned before, "I love this country but I hate its current administration" is the only opinion that will not be removed.

Be it known I think bashing of any kind is wrong, in either direction. In church just this morning, our pastor mentioned how much this country could accomplish if those in politics would just work toward what's good for the people, instead of fighting each other along party lines. Instead, if one party comes up with an idea, the other party automatically feels like they have to oppose it simply because the one party favors it, and vice versa. Who cares which party came up with an idea? If it works, do it; if it doesn't work, scrap it.

But I think it goes deeper than just the last 40 years beginning with Nixon-bashing. Hubby and I were discussing that last night. I think the mentality is in us beginning with childhood. "Be proud you're a (Lastname), and don't you dare do anything to besmirch our family name." Then it goes to heritage. "It's (Nationality) Heritage Day, so let's celebrate! Honk if you're (Nationality)!" We start school, and with that comes the sports rivalries and pep rallies. "Go, (Mascots!)" Even regions of the same country get in on the act. "Southern Pride," people from the southeastern United States call it, and they're proud of having it. When I moved to the Pacific Northwest, from the South, I was actually shocked and upset to discover that the rest of the nation doesn't care if I'm Southern or not. When my husband told me how little difference it makes outside of the South, I was so offended I wanted to hit him over the head with a cast-iron skillet full of hot collard greens. But he's right. Whether or not somebody is Southern matters only to other Southerners.

From all of this, I would reason we grow up believing that any group we are a member of is better than the others, simply because we are a member of it. And that's where I think the average person's patriotism comes from. "I'm an American, and that makes me better than anybody who isn't one." They might even throw in some ethnic slurs for those from other countries. "At least I'm not a...." And I just don't see that as a Christlike attitude. I must agree with those who say it is not a *Christian* virtue, necessarily, to be patriotic. It doesn't conflict, but one doesn't have to be American to be Christian, or a Christian to be American.