Patriotism

[MrJim]

The first point to be made is that patriotism doesn't mean loving everything your country does, and certainly not everything your government does, or even what your government is.

Second, patriotism is a Christian virtue because nation, country, people is an institution that you belong to, much like a family but obviously at a higher broader level. God determined what country you would be born in just like he determined what family you would be born in. So in essence God gave you your country and your people to love, and to serve.

Likewise, the reason the word patriotism even exists is because your nation, your country, is something like a parent to to you (patria is latin for father-land) it has contributed to making you who you are and it is has given you sustenance etc.

It is therefore proper that you should love your country and your people.

Obviously we are Christians and citizens of the heavenly city before citizens of the USA etc. However, I think much of the lack of patriotism of today is the result of selfishness and lack of gratitude, as much as anything else... while at the same time the "patriotism" of many is misguided devotion to a false vision of country etc.

Simon

This is a quote from a Mennonite author that always stuck to me:

The idolatry of patriotism, believing that any one nation's or people's cause is so worthy that to it human lives-whether "friend" or "foe"-should be sacrificed, must be unveiled not first when it has actually led to open warfare, but already when the possibility of such slaughter has been accepted into government plans. Not taking of life, but the idolizing of one's own interest which leads finally to killing, is the deepest sin of militarism. Whether the sixth commandment absolutely forbids all killing is still debated; in any case the first forbids nationalism.

John Howard Yoder

 

[Christian7PraiseJesus]

On Facebook, I asked a question at a Conservative page, in response to one of those "Like this picture if you're proud to be an American" flag-waving images. I wanted to know, since Jesus died because God so loved the world, why patriotism is considered a Christian virtue. Jesus didn't die for only Americans. I made it clear that I am a Christian, but I don't see why patriotism is considered a Christian virtue. I don't get the connection. When I mentioned on my own page that I had asked this question, a Canadian friend agreed with me. He said, "As much as I love being Canadian, Heaven is my homeland, and I love it more."

That garnered a huge Amen from me! I feel the same way about being a citizen of both Heaven and the United States. I am a Christian first, and an American second. If I ever have to choose between the two, Jesus wins.

In response to my question, I received a "+1" from an atheist, and a "you're going to hell" from a foul-mouthed troll. At least I thought it was a troll. When I looked to see if there were more replies, I found that they had deleted my question. Apparently the only sentiment the owner of that page will allow to stand is, "I love this country, but I hate our current administration." At least we at CF do allow honest exchange of differing ideas!

So I'll ask it here. What do patriotism and Christianity have to do with each other? Do you have to be one to be the other? Why is America "better" or more "God blessed" than any other nation?

Agreed 100%.

Jesus, who is God, stated, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations"
Matthew 28:19

Jesus, God, wasn't even an American... He lived in the middle east when He was on earth!

Jesus, who was God, also didn't simply live in one place, either, He also had lived in Egypt in hiding when a child and part of adulthood.

Jesus, God, can speak ALL languages as He is omniscient!

Yes, I completely, 100% don't understand it either, and honestly, I think it can be detrimental to progress as people refuse to acknowledge problems and as a result refuse to change or improve them. As a result, they also refuse to work with those of other nations who could help come up with a better, more advanced solution. Like health care, transportation, public education (more $ put into it), aid to the poor, especially.

It then becomes
"place the 1776 era" in front of Jesus's, God's commandments and I find it disturbing as 1776 had nothing at all to do with Jesus. I can think of many laws and societal issues during those times as well as colonial times which were anti-Jesus's commandments... into 19th century, too, and beyond.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Simon

This is a quote from a Mennonite author that always stuck to me:

John Howard Yoder

Hi MrJim

Earlier you asked what the difference between Nationalism and Patriotism was.

To use family as an analogy...

Patriotism is like saying "I love my family"

Nationalism is like saying "My family is better than everyone else" or perhaps "My family's interests trump everyone else's interests".

Nationalism tends towards the idea that your nation-state should be pre-eminent and dominant. The interests of your nation should be served above and at the expense of other nations etc. Nationalism tends towards militarism.

Patriotism is simply love of country. Patriotism doesn't imply militarism anymore than loving your family implies being militant against other families.

I don't believe in aggressive militarism. However, I also believe that it is virtually impossible to believe the bible and be completely against all warfare. I believe there is such a thing as Just war.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Good answers, everyone. Thanks for the education.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

By the way, I thought about this thread yesterday. I've just joined the choir at church, and yesterday was the first practice I attended. It seems I've come in just in time to start practicing for the Fourth of July cantada, which means we're currently rehearsing every patriotic song there is. Everything from "God Bless America" to Lee Greenwood's "God Bless the USA," plus the official hymns of all of the Armed Forces branches, the National Anthem, and a couple I don't know. Put it all in one place, sing them all back to back, and it starts feeling like glurge to me. You?

 

[MrJim]

Hi MrJim

Earlier you asked what the difference between Nationalism and Patriotism was.

To use family as an analogy...

Patriotism is like saying "I love my family"

Nationalism is like saying "My family is better than everyone else" or perhaps "My family's interests trump everyone else's interests".

Nationalism tends towards the idea that your nation-state should be pre-eminent and dominant. The interests of your nation should be served above and at the expense of other nations etc. Nationalism tends towards militarism.

Patriotism is simply love of country. Patriotism doesn't imply militarism anymore than loving your family implies being militant against other families.

I don't believe in aggressive militarism. However, I also believe that it is virtually impossible to believe the bible and be completely against all warfare. I believe there is such a thing as Just war.

I think then by your definition nationalism is what I see demonstrated far more than patriotism.

 

[MrJim]

By the way, I thought about this thread yesterday. I've just joined the choir at church, and yesterday was the first practice I attended. It seems I've come in just in time to start practicing for the Fourth of July cantada, which means we're currently rehearsing every patriotic song there is. Everything from "God Bless America" to Lee Greenwood's "God Bless the USA," plus the official hymns of all of the Armed Forces branches, the National Anthem, and a couple I don't know. Put it all in one place, sing them all back to back, and it starts feeling like glurge to me. You?

I don't go to the Baptist church on Memorial Day, Independence Day, nor Veteran's Day---the Star-Spangled Cross is more than I can tolerate. I witness more celebration hoopla on those dates than Easter and that isn't an exaggeration.

 

[Albion]

By the way, I thought about this thread yesterday. I've just joined the choir at church, and yesterday was the first practice I attended. It seems I've come in just in time to start practicing for the Fourth of July cantada, which means we're currently rehearsing every patriotic song there is. Everything from "God Bless America" to Lee Greenwood's "God Bless the USA," plus the official hymns of all of the Armed Forces branches, the National Anthem, and a couple I don't know. Put it all in one place, sing them all back to back, and it starts feeling like glurge to me. You?

Since you ask, I hate that stuff. BUT if it is a play put on in the evening, as opposed to during the worship service, I temper my disapproval somewhat.

 

[snowfam]

This is a really great thread with many valid ideas, a lot of this is stuff I've been kicking around for a while and debating with my dad and son.
A litte background lest I be accused of being a traitor or whatever. My grandfather was in the Army and a p.o.w. in germany for three years my dad was in the air force for forty-two years and is a veteran of the first and second Iraq wars, I was.in the Army for 11 years and serves Iraq during the bloodiest months of 2004, so I was born bleeding red, white, and blue.
My family members my own service did nothing to futher the kingdom of God, although it was very patriotic. I was trained kill people based on ethnic, religious, and racial dogmas which actually would definetly violate scripture. So if I claim to be a Christian and a patriot how can I reconcile the two, the answer is I cannot. If what I did is ok based on patriotism biblical, then all japenese, german, and soviet soldiers are absolved of any wrong doing, after all they were following orders. (I wonder if that excuse wasn't good enough at Nuremburg how will it hold up for the almighty God on judgement day.)
A flag in church seems to be idolotry no matter how you slice it.
I cannot see how following Christ and patriotism can coexist in one person, obeying our leaders is biblical (so long as the Word is not transgressed in so doing) but patriotism really cannot be.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Since you ask, I hate that stuff. BUT if it is a play put on in the evening, as opposed to during the worship service, I temper my disapproval somewhat.

My 27-year-old daughter (who has been in the choir a bit longer and had participated in the Easter cantada) feels much the same way. I was reading down the list of songs we'd be singing, and when I mentioned Lee Greenwood's piece, she interjected, "I don't like these songs, by the way."

I answered, "I was just about to say, I hate that song."

The reasons may seem petty by comparison, but here they are:

"I'd thank my lucky stars to be living here today..." Um, no. I did hear this song done a few years ago for another Fourth of July church service, where the performer had changed the lyric to, "I'd thank my God above to be living here today," and I like that much better. I don't worship lucky stars. I worship God.

"And I won't forget the men who died...." Women have been serving in the Armed Forces for how long now? If I were singing the song by myself, I would change that to, "the ones who died." But I can't do that as part of a choir.

"Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land..." Yes, even with the substandard education system that didn't teach me any better grammar than that.

So we're singing songs we don't particularly like, but it's part of being in a choir. When it's over, maybe we'll get to sing some more songs about God and Jesus, such as in the Easter cantada. I think my favorite one they did then was, "Before the Throne of God Above" (Vikki Cook's 1997 melody.)

 

[Simon_Templar]

I think then by your definition nationalism is what I see demonstrated far more than patriotism.

I can't disagree with that.

 

[I Eat Pie]

God bless America. The reason why we have all these problems in this country is because people aren't patriotic enough. What patriots would let their country be flooded with illegal aliens or vote in a communist or want handouts on the backs of fellow Americans instead of working?

 

[Albion]

To be clear, I hate that IDEA of turning a worship service into a patriotic exercise. I don't object to the lyrics in most of these songs--and actually like Greenwood's--but I prefer worship to remain what it's supposed to be. The same thing applies to Mother's Day and similar occasions that some churches make the main theme for that Sunday's services.

My 27-year-old daughter (who has been in the choir a bit longer and had participated in the Easter cantada) feels much the same way. I was reading down the list of songs we'd be singing, and when I mentioned Lee Greenwood's piece, she interjected, "I don't like these songs, by the way."

I answered, "I was just about to say, I hate that song."

The reasons may seem petty by comparison, but here they are:

"I'd thank my lucky stars to be living here today..." Um, no. I did hear this song done a few years ago for another Fourth of July church service, where the performer had changed the lyric to, "I'd thank my God above to be living here today," and I like that much better. I don't worship lucky stars. I worship God.

"And I won't forget the men who died...." Women have been serving in the Armed Forces for how long now? If I were singing the song by myself, I would change that to, "the ones who died." But I can't do that as part of a choir.

"Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land..." Yes, even with the substandard education system that didn't teach me any better grammar than that.

So we're singing songs we don't particularly like, but it's part of being in a choir. When it's over, maybe we'll get to sing some more songs about God and Jesus, such as in the Easter cantada. I think my favorite one they did then was, "Before the Throne of God Above" (Vikki Cook's 1997 melody.)

 

[WannaWitness]

deleted post

 

[DeadlyScimitars]

There are too many posts here to even quote one

Patriotism and Christianity are not the same and cannot be comparable. To say so would be the same as stating a Dental Hygienist and an Athlete are the same.
Can you be both? Yes.
Are they the same thing or concept? No.
I refer to myself as a Christian patriot. I serve in our Armed Forces and in God's Army as well. I love my country and am devoted to it...so long as it doesn't take away my freedom to serve the Lord.
Patriotism by definition is as follows:
love for or devotion to one's country
Can you be a Christian but not a patriot? Yes.
Many Christians overseas do not love their country or are devoted to it. It can be corrupt and godless but that doesn't take away a Christians faith. They still recognize it's their human authority but that does not make them patriots.
This country WAS founded on Christian principles. It is no longer so. Our country has become corrupt and has turned its back on God. There are still many Christians here in the U.S. but it is no longer anchored on God's Word.
If you need examples...give me time...too long of a list

 

[Gentlemantech48]

There are too many posts here to even quote one

Patriotism and Christianity are not the same and cannot be comparable. To say so would be the same as stating a Dental Hygienist and an Athlete are the same.
Can you be both? Yes.
Are they the same thing or concept? No.
I refer to myself as a Christian patriot. I serve in our Armed Forces and in God's Army as well. I love my country and am devoted to it...so long as it doesn't take away my freedom to serve the Lord.
Patriotism by definition is as follows:
love for or devotion to one's country
Can you be a Christian but not a patriot? Yes.
Many Christians overseas do not love their country or are devoted to it. It can be corrupt and godless but that doesn't take away a Christians faith. They still recognize it's their human authority but that does not make them patriots.
This country WAS founded on Christian principles. It is no longer so. Our country has become corrupt and has turned its back on God. There are still many Christians here in the U.S. but it is no longer anchored on God's Word.
If you need examples...give me time...too long of a list

I think you said it well. This country was built on God's principles and He has blessed it accordingly and yet we have fallen away from His principles and there is no guarantee He will or can continue to bless it. What He WILL bless is the Christian who stands up for what is good and right and true. We may someday be in the situation of our brothers and sisters who are persecuted for their belief. Patriotism will no longer be the issue, it will be survival as sheep amongst the wolves. We must continue to pray for both the sheep and the wolves.

 

[snowfam]

I think you said it well. This country was built on God's principles and He has blessed it accordingly and yet we have fallen away from His principles and there is no guarantee He will or can continue to bless it. What He WILL bless is the Christian who stands up for what is good and right and true. We may someday be in the situation of our brothers and sisters who are persecuted for their belief. Patriotism will no longer be the issue, it will be survival as sheep amongst the wolves. We must continue to pray for both the sheep and the wolves.

?