Pastor leaves Adventism

[TrustAndObey]

Well, I dont need to...you are claiming that the sabbath was not a feast day...the text clearly says they are. And if you would understand the different covenants you would understand the Sabbath pointed to and is fulfilled in Christ who fullfilled the whole law.

AT

You do realize that every person in this forum is Adventist and believes we should keep the Sabbath commandment, right?

 

[StormyOne]

You do realize that every person in this forum is Adventist and believes we should keep the Sabbath commandment, right?

Really? There are those here who would say that not everyone here is a true adventist, much less an adventist... Not saying that you have said that T&O, I am just saying that there are those here who have that opinion...

 

[TrustAndObey]

Really? There are those here who would say that not everyone here is a true adventist, much less an adventist... Not saying that you have said that T&O, I am just saying that there are those here who have that opinion...

Here's what's interesting...someone just came into an Adventist forum and stated we don't have to keep the Sabbath commandment...but your comments are geared toward me?

Do Progressive Adventists keep the Sabbath commandment? If so, why is it more important to overlook comments like those and to continue a fight you don't even have with me?

Who is the true enemy here Stormy? Me?

I agree that a line has been drawn, but you do more than your fair share of making sure that line stays exactly where it is.

Do Progressive Adventists believe we should keep the Sabbath commandment of God?

 

[mva1985]

Well, I dont need to...you are claiming that the sabbath was not a feast day...the text clearly says they are. And if you would understand the different covenants you would understand the Sabbath pointed to and is fulfilled in Christ who fullfilled the whole law.

AT

Advent,

I'm curious as to how you think that Christ fulfilled the Sabbath as in fulfilled it to complete it so that it does not need to be kept anymore? You know like He did on the Cross to make an end to sacrifices.

The Sabbath is about a time that God set aside for us to spend time with Him developing our relationship with Him. Something that we will spend an eternity doing.

 

[StormyOne]

Here's what's interesting...someone just came into an Adventist forum and stated we don't have to keep the Sabbath commandment...but your comments are geared toward me?

Do Progressive Adventists keep the Sabbath commandment? If so, why is it more important to overlook comments like those and to continue a fight you don't even have with me?

Who is the true enemy here Stormy? Me?

I agree that a line has been drawn, but you do more than your fair share of making sure that line stays exactly where it is.

Do Progressive Adventists believe we should keep the Sabbath commandment of God?

Of course T&O all seventh day adventists believe in observing the sabbath day... why would you think that they would not? I am sorry for addressing you, let me know when its okay to direct any comment towards you....

Enemies on the forum? Surely you jest...

 

[TrustAndObey]

Of course T&O all seventh day adventists believe in observing the sabbath day... why would you think that they would not? I am sorry for addressing you, let me know when its okay to direct any comment towards you....

Enemies on the forum? Surely you jest...

That's what I thought. So how was my comment to him that Adventists keep the Sabbath commandment more important than his comment that NO ONE should keep that commandment? Especially since what I said was TRUE....Adventists DO keep the Sabbath commandment.

 

[StormyOne]

That's what I thought. So how was my comment to him that Adventists keep the Sabbath commandment more important than his comment that NO ONE should keep that commandment? Especially since what I said was TRUE....Adventists DO keep the Sabbath commandment.

seventh day adventists.... not all adventists are seventh day adventsts... and who said your comment was more or less important than someone else's?

 

[TrustAndObey]

seventh day adventists.... not all adventists are seventh day adventsts... and who said your comment was more or less important than someone else's?

So what is your comment about? You originally said not everyone considers some of the posters on here to be Adventists, but now you're saying not all Adventists are Seventh-day Adventists.

So let me clarify: This is a Seventh-day Adventist subforum.

Seventh-day Adventists keep the 4th commandment of God to obey His holy day.

You gave my comment more importance than "Adventtruth"'s when you overlooked what he said to specifically quote me and find fault in what *I* said.

You don't see any fault in his comment that the Sabbath was fulfilled and we don't have to keep it anymore?

THAT doesn't need defending but you think past comments do? What? I'm just not sure where you're coming from with this one.

 

[StormyOne]

So what is your comment about? You originally said not everyone considers some of the posters on here to be Adventists, but now you're saying not all Adventists are Seventh-day Adventists.

So let me clarify: This is a Seventh-day Adventist subforum.

Seventh-day Adventists keep the 4th commandment of God to obey His holy day.

You gave my comment more importance than "Adventtruth"'s when you overlooked what he said to specifically quote me and find fault in what *I* said.

You don't see any fault in his comment that the Sabbath was fulfilled and we don't have to keep it anymore?

THAT doesn't need defending but you think past comments do? What? I'm just not sure where you're coming from with this one.

because I found your comment more interesting does not mean I felt it was more important than any other comment made in this forum... I read it, thought of something and replied... that is allowed last time I checked the rules... AT's comments were also read, I was not compelled to reply to his, so I didn't...

As for your not understanding where I am coming from, it hasn't been the first time, and I am sure it won't be the last...

 

[TrustAndObey]

because I found your comment more interesting does not mean I felt it was more important than any other comment made in this forum... I read it, thought of something and replied... that is allowed last time I checked the rules... AT's comments were also read, I was not compelled to reply to his, so I didn't...

As for your not understanding where I am coming from, it hasn't been the first time, and I am sure it won't be the last...

Your rivalry with certain people on here does appear to be more important than defending why you're a Seventh-day Adventist to begin with.

And the reason I don't understand where you're coming from is because you don't always take the time to explain what you say. You talk in circles sometimes Stormy.

I can't read minds or hearts, so it'd be easier if people just SAID what they mean instead of trying to make people guess....because that leads to the inevitable "oh so you think you know what I'm thinking now?"

 

[StormyOne]

Your rivalry with certain people on here does appear to be more important than defending why you're a Seventh-day Adventist to begin with.

And the reason I don't understand where you're coming from is because you don't always take the time to explain what you say. You talk in circles sometimes Stormy.

I can't read minds or hearts, so it'd be easier if people just SAID what they mean instead of trying to make people guess....because that leads to the inevitable "oh so you think you know what I'm thinking now?"

I am not engaged in any rivalries here, I do on occasion interact with people here, ideas are exchanged and we move on.... While I do not feel the need to "defend" who I am to those who are not adventist, I refuse to allow those who are adventist to suggest that I am not one...

Here on this forum I have said what I mean, it is unfortunate that you have not understood... so if I have said what I mean, and you still don't understand, then there are two possibilities. One, I don't have the words to convey my message in a way you would understand it, or two, you don't have the ability to understand what I am saying....

Since I don't know your abilities, I will accept the reality that maybe I don't have the words to help you understand what I am saying....

peace

 

[NightEternal]

The reason that I do not engage in exhaustive Sabbath apologetics here, is because it has been done in the past, many times, by people better and much more qualified than I.

Sam Bacchiocchi's book from Sabbath To Sunday is a case in point. There is nothing I can say that the good doctor hasn't already dealt with exhaustively and extensively in this book:

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com...id=31&osCsid=2cf7af50ba734570923a9982ce10f61c

I have never read or heard anyone refute Bachiocchi's research on the Sabbath issue properly. No one. Not even Dale Ratzlaff and his book Sabbath In Crisis, which I have in my library.

Actually, I have a lot of anti-Adventist/EGW books in my library, including Walter Rea's White Lie (for research purposes.)

The Sabbath truth is as plain as the nose on my face to me. I have heard all the arguments against it and, frankly, I just never saw it. Some formers obviously did, but I couldn't.

It seems no matter how much you try to show that the Sabbath was very much kept in the New Testament, there is always a counter-argument for every argument.

If you say that Paul preached in the synagogue on the Sabbath, they will respond that he was only doing so to reach the Jews, and that is where and when he had to go to do this.

So, it is a stalemate if you ask me.

Walter Veith clearly shows how, at the council of Trent, the Reformation failed to the Counter-Reformation on one point: The Sabbath.

But the Sabbath nay-sayers will tell you that such a thing never took place at the Council Of Trent.

We have always believed that Emperor Constantine changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday to accomodate the pagans who were flooding into the church.

But the Sabbath nay-sayers will counter with the argument that Sunday was already the established day of worship for Christians long before Constantine, and that he only made into law what was already in effect.

Of course, the sources I have seen them use for proof of this, are Catholic historian sources. Hmmmmm...

I could go on with every argument and counter-argument. You get the point.

I just don't see it as an effective use of my time Trust.

On one point I do agree with the Sabbath critics however: Christ is our True Sabbath Rest, amen. However, I do not see this as Him fulfilling the shadow and obliterating the Sabbath commandment. It all goes back to whether you regard the laws fulfilled and nailed to the cross as the whole, compete Torah law, or just the ceremonial.

The nay-sayers will, of course, claim that the Sabbath is a ceremonial law given only for Israel.

You just cannot win either way it seems.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I can totally understand not wanting to jump into every single debate there is about Sabbath. I think ALL Adventists have had to debate it more times than they care to (and then WE get accused of making it of utmost importance).

But if someone engages in a debate with your brother or sister Adventist, shouldn't defending THEM (not necessarily the scripture), be a big priority?

If two people stand on the Word and keep the Sabbath, shouldn't all differences be set aside at that moment to jump in and agree? Instead of letting it appear the exact same issue they're talking about isn't just as important to you?

I hope that made sense, I'm on painkillers at the moment.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

But the Sabbath nay-sayers will counter with the argument that Sunday was already the established day of worship for Christians long before Constantine, and that he only made into law what was already in effect.

Of course, the sources I have seen them use for proof of this, are Catholic historian sources. Hmmmmm...

It is not simply nay sayers it is history, I am surprised it is not referenced in Sam B's book, if it is not then it is a major deficit.
.....

On one point I do agree with the Sabbath critics however: Christ is our True Sabbath Rest, amen. However, I do not see this as Him fulfilling the shadow and obliterating the Sabbath commandment. It all goes back to whether you regard the laws fulfilled and nailed to the cross as the whole, compete Torah law, or just the ceremonial.

The nay-sayers will, of course, claim that the Sabbath is a ceremonial law given only for Israel.

Can you identify that there even is such a thing as a moral and ceremonial differentiation of the Law? You won't find the Jews doing that. We don't find that in the New Testament church either. As near as I can find it was not until Thomas Aquinas that this two law theory arrived. Of course if you don't trust a historian because he was Catholic at a time when unless you were a heretic everybody was said to be catholic then you should have a real problem with Aquinas.

 

[djconklin]

The reason that I do not engage in exhaustive Sabbath apologetics here, is because it has been done in the past, many times, by people better and much more qualified than I.

Sam Bacchiocchi's book from Sabbath To Sunday is a case in point. There is nothing I can say that the good doctor hasn't already dealt with exhaustively and extensively in this book:

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com...id=31&osCsid=2cf7af50ba734570923a9982ce10f61c

I have never read or heard anyone refute Bachiocchi's research on the Sabbath issue properly. No one. Not even Dale Ratzlaff and his book Sabbath In Crisis, which I have in my library.

Actually, I have a lot of anti-Adventist/EGW books in my library, including Walter Rea's White Lie (for research purposes.)

The Sabbath truth is as plain as the nose on my face to me. I have heard all the arguments against it and, frankly, I just never saw it. Some formers obviously did, but I couldn't.

It seems no matter how much you try to show that the Sabbath was very much kept in the New Testament, there is always a counter-argument for every argument.

If you say that Paul preached in the synagogue on the Sabbath, they will respond that he was only doing so to reach the Jews, and that is where and when he had to go to do this.

So, it is a stalemate if you ask me.

Walter Veith clearly shows how, at the council of Trent, the Reformation failed to the Counter-Reformation on one point: The Sabbath.

But the Sabbath nay-sayers will tell you that such a thing never took place at the Council Of Trent.

We have always believed that Emperor Constantine changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday to accomodate the pagans who were flooding into the church.

But the Sabbath nay-sayers will counter with the argument that Sunday was already the established day of worship for Christians long before Constantine, and that he only made into law what was already in effect.

Of course, the sources I have seen them use for proof of this, are Catholic historian sources. Hmmmmm...

I could go on with every argument and counter-argument. You get the point.

I just don't see it as an effective use of my time Trust.

On one point I do agree with the Sabbath critics however: Christ is our True Sabbath Rest, amen. However, I do not see this as Him fulfilling the shadow and obliterating the Sabbath commandment. It all goes back to whether you regard the laws fulfilled and nailed to the cross as the whole, compete Torah law, or just the ceremonial.

The nay-sayers will, of course, claim that the Sabbath is a ceremonial law given only for Israel.

You just cannot win either way it seems.

Great post!

Take a look at the sources here: http://www.remnantofgod.org/sabhist.htm

I've just started to collect them from the local libraries.

 

[djconklin]

I am surprised it is not referenced in Sam B's book, if it is not then it is a major deficit.

That wasn't the thrust of his doctorate.

Can you identify that there even is such a thing as a moral and ceremonial differentiation of the Law? You won't find the Jews doing that.

This is a quite common myth. They did in their writings about them:

1) one is on stone; the other is not.
2) one is placed inside the Ark under the Mercy seat; the other is rolled up and placed outside as a tesimony.
3) one was written by Godl the other was not.
4) The moral law is based on the moral principle of love; the ceremonial aren't.

Many other points could be shown as well.

 

[Adventtruth]

You do realize that every person in this forum is Adventist and believes we should keep the Sabbath commandment, right?

Delete

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

Advent,

I'm curious as to how you think that Christ fulfilled the Sabbath as in fulfilled it to complete it so that it does not need to be kept anymore? You know like He did on the Cross to make an end to sacrifices.

The Sabbath is about a time that God set aside for us to spend time with Him developing our relationship with Him. Something that we will spend an eternity doing.

Chapter and verse.

AT

 

[TrustAndObey]

So you're not Adventist anymore Adventtruth?

(I didn't quote you before you deleted it).

 

[Adventtruth]

So you're not Adventist anymore Adventtruth?

(I didn't quote you before you deleted it).

The Adventist church I was apart of was Very legalistic...no grace. It was just like the church NightEternal discribed, and still is. After teaching Sabbath school for over 15 years and trying to rid the local church of its legalism, it was of no use. I had to get out of there. But before that I never bought into the Sabbath saves, end times dividing wall, seal of God thing. But I knew I was missing something and after being pointed in another direction concerning the work of Jesus, I went back and studied the covenants and saw it plainly. Christ is the true Sabbath of God...

AT