Pastor leaves Adventism

freeindeed2 · Aug 9, 2007

NightEternal said:
Right on RC.

Freeindeed, I did not start this thread to discount any of Greg's assertions or to gossip about his decision to leave the church. In fact, just the opposite. I wanted to bring out the areas where he was dead-on and I agreed.

I know that. My comments weren't directed at you particularly. But I bet nobody here has communicated with him directly. I called him personally because I have made it a habit to go to the source first. (Something I rarely experienced in my 35 years of experience in the SDA church.)

Somehow, the thread turned into a Sabbath defense treatise, which was not even the part of the letter I wanted to zero in on.

It always seems to go back to that. I wish it always went to Jesus...

Threads have a way of going wonky pretty fast.

Yes they do.

What's his e-mail?

I've never emailed him, but I'll try to get it for you. I'm sure it's not difficult. He has his own website ministry. I'll PM you when I get it.

Jimlarmore · Aug 9, 2007

In every single case I have witnessed so far I have noticed a trend. Those who choose to leave the remnant family of God follow this path in a general way.

1. The first thing is almost always an invalidation of the SOP.

2. They usually begin to invalidate the sanctity of the Sabbath or the ten commandment law of God.

3. They usually always wind up buying into a corrupted verson of salvation by grace that falls withing a "Once saved always saved" philosophy.

4. Eventually, they even invalidate the importance of our health message.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

RC_NewProtestants · Aug 9, 2007

Jimlarmore said:
In every single case I have witnessed so far I have noticed a trend. Those who choose to leave the remnant family of God follow this path in a general way.

1. The first thing is almost always an invalidation of the SOP.

2. They usually begin to invalidate the sanctity of the Sabbath or the ten commandment law of God.

3. They usually always wind up buying into a corrupted verson of salvation by grace that falls withing a "Once saved always saved" philosophy.

4. Eventually, they even invalidate the importance of our health message.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Thanks Jim your statement is fairly accurate. Because the SDA church is really primarily based upon Ellen Whites interpretations when ever a member realizes that there is a doctrinal problem such as the IJ, sabbath as the seal of God etc. they must deal with how they understand Ellen White or as you so accurately misidentified her as the SOP (Spirit of Prophecy). So when any teaching of the church is seen as not in harmony with the Bible they have to take the Bible over Ellen White.

All the other things are the particulars of the Adventist EGW influenced doctrines. So they no longer see the Sabbath as EGW's vision of it being the highlighted commandment of the 10 and they can see the Sabbath as more then just what day someone worships. I don't know that most give up Arminian free will for once saved always saved but I do think they will tend to accept the Biblical exclamation that no one will snatch them out of Christ's hand and the He that started a good work will complete it. The same will go for the health message, not that they don't believe in living a healthy life but that some of our traditions about health are not accurate to scientific reality or even Biblical admonitions.

sentipente · Aug 9, 2007

Jimlarmore said:
In every single case I have witnessed so far I have noticed a trend. Those who choose to leave the remnant family of God follow this path in a general way.

I would like you to tell me when the Creator broke up his family, seeing how you believe that only Adventists belong to the family of God.

freeindeed2 · Aug 9, 2007

RC_NewProtestants said:
Thanks Jim your statement is fairly accurate. Because the SDA church is really primarily based upon Ellen Whites interpretations when ever a member realizes that there is a doctrinal problem such as the IJ, sabbath as the seal of God etc. they must deal with how they understand Ellen White or as you so accurately misidentified her as the SOP (Spirit of Prophecy). So when any teaching of the church is seen as not in harmony with the Bible they have to take the Bible over Ellen White.

All the other things are the particulars of the Adventist EGW influenced doctrines. So they no longer see the Sabbath as EGW's vision of it being the highlighted commandment of the 10 and they can see the Sabbath as more then just what day someone worships. I don't know that most give up Arminian free will for once saved always saved but I do think they will tend to accept the Biblical exclamation that no one will snatch them out of Christ's hand and the He that started a good work will complete it. The same will go for the health message, not that they don't believe in living a healthy life but that some of our traditions about health are not accurate to scientific reality or even Biblical admonitions.

Thank you for clarifying for those of us who cannot comment. What you have said is closer to the truth regarding those of us who followed our consciences and left. I appreciate it.

djconklin · Aug 9, 2007

I called him personally because I have made it a habit to go to the source first. (Something I rarely experienced in my 35 years of experience in the SDA church.)

And how many times did you call Rea and Dr. Veltman?

djconklin · Aug 9, 2007

your statement is fairly accurate. Because the SDA church is really primarily based upon Ellen Whites interpretations when ever a member realizes that there is a doctrinal problem such as the IJ, sabbath as the seal of God etc. they must deal with how they understand Ellen White or as you so accurately misidentified her as the SOP (Spirit of Prophecy).

I never use Ellen White on any of the subjects you mentioned. In fact, she herself counsels against it. So, if you happen to run into one of these pink elephants on the far side of the moon you can tell them that they are doing it all wrong and have seriously misunderstood her.

djconklin · Aug 9, 2007

it is interesting to observe that folks who believe in sinless perfection or its variation ...

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

sentipente · Aug 9, 2007

Proof-texting is such a wonderful companion.

StormyOne · Aug 9, 2007

djconklin said:
Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

The complete statement was as follows:

it is interesting to observe that folks who believe in sinless perfection or its variation tend to value the concept of "truth" moreso than love and at times are quick to say who is and is not a true christian.

btw, Matt 5:48 is better rendered be complete in righteousness as your father in heaven is complete... and Jesus said that at the end of a whole list of traits that His followers would have...but don't let that get in the way of the point you are attempting to make...

djconklin · Aug 9, 2007

The complete statement was as follows:
it is interesting to observe that folks who believe in sinless perfection or its variation tend to value the concept of "truth" moreso than love and at times are quick to say who is and is not a true christian.

Click to expand...

The ellipsis (the '...') covers the part that wasn't quoted. The point of my post obviously only dealt with the part that was quoted.

Matt 5:48 is better rendered be complete in righteousness as your father in heaven is complete...

Shouldn't there be quote marks around what you take to be the correct translation?

YLT Matthew 5:48 ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who is in the heavens is perfect.

The RSV, NIV, NAS, NAB, Webster's, and ESV all agree with the YLT and KJV.

The only tranlation that agrees with you is the Bible in Basic English:

BBE Matthew 5:48 Be then complete in righteousness, even as your Father in heaven is complete.

but don't let that get in the way of the point you are attempting to make...

The Bible speaks quite clearly without making snide remarks.

sentipente · Aug 9, 2007

DJ, you have a flawed view of perfection. No one is expected not to make mistakes. Mistakes are the only way that humans learn. The fact that humans were created knowing nothing about the world around them indicates that they were expected to make mistakes.

djconklin · Aug 9, 2007

Proof-texting is such a wonderful companion.

Remarks unsubstantiated by any sort of proof are the companions of others. But, then a again, a couple of texts are all that is needed to convince some--others need the whole load--but, with 123 hits they aren't going to get it (here's a sample). This is a function of the abominable biblical illiteracy that exists in this country.

Genesis 17:1[wash my mouth]And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Deuteronomy 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

2 Samuel 22:33 God is my strength and power: and he maketh my way perfect.

1 Kings 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

1 Kings 11:4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. (see also 15:3 for a similar expression.)

1 Kings 15:14 But the high places were not removed: nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with the LORD all his days.

2 Kings 20:3 I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

James 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

sentipente · Aug 9, 2007

So, for how long do you have to be perfect in order to claim that you are perfect? Ten minutes at a time? Ten months at a time? Ten years at a time? If you dream a sinful dream does it mean that you are not really perfect? How do you measure perfection? Do you measure yourself or do you measure someone else?

NightEternal · Aug 9, 2007

Shake the dust off Senti. Just walk away.

It is the only prudent thing to do, as we are never going to agree with the perfectionists on this one.

djconklin · Aug 9, 2007

DJ, you have a flawed view of perfection.

You have a flawed view of my view of perfection.

No one is expected not to make mistakes.

Adam and Eve weren't supposed to.

[quopte]Mistakes are the only way that humans learn.[/quote]

There's an old adage: learn from the mistakes of others because you won't have time to make them all. What you are basically saying is that since you have haven't (we assume) killed, robbed a bank, snorted crack, smoked a joint, slept with you neighbor's wife or your neighbor that therefore you don't know that it is wrong. I'm willing to bet that you are smarter than that.

The fact that humans were created knowing nothing about the world around them indicates that they were expected to make mistakes.

No. We sin because we chose to sin--Christ proved you wrong--He condemned sin in the flesh by living as we were supposed to--that's why He can save us.

sentipente · Aug 9, 2007

NightEternal said:
Shake the dust off Senti. Just walk away.

It is the only prudent thing to do, as we are never going to agree with the perfectionists on this one.

I speak to those who are reading the exchange.

djconklin · Aug 9, 2007

It is the only prudent thing to do, as we are never going to agree with the perfectionists on this one.

The wiser course of action would be to not assume way too much as you have, and then admit when you are wrong. Learn and grow. But, only the wise can admit when they are wrong. The rest either go into denial or claim that what they have done wasn't a sin.

djconklin · Aug 9, 2007

I speak to those who are reading the exchange.

Likewise.

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

djconklin · Aug 9, 2007

So, for how long do you have to be perfect in order to claim that you are perfect?

Who would claim it? Shouldn't that be your first hint that you aren't?

If you dream a sinful dream does it mean that you are not really perfect?

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

How do you measure perfection?

Basic Christianity 101: The 10C, as an expression of the principle of love, are the standards that God has given us.

Do you measure yourself or do you measure someone else?

You pray to God for His Holy Spirit to lead you and guide you. There is no biblical precedence for us "measuring others, except for:

Matthew 7:17-20 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

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