Pastor leaves Adventism

[NightEternal]

Just for the record, I am not endorsing Greg's views on the Sabbath issue in the letter, obviously. The areas that resonate with me are other ones.

 

[sentipente]

[/size]

I very clearly told you before verses 2 and 4 form an inclusio--do you know what that means?

Show us the extent of your vocabulary. Don't keep us waiting.

 

[TrustAndObey]

The majority followed the Bible's warnings AGAINST knowing the time of Christ's return and they were NOT disappointed. Should we always side with the minority (which Christianity is!). What about the Branch Davidians? Heaven's Gate? Jim Jones? The 'minority' within Christianity isn't a good place to be.

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Being in the minority CAN be good.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Obviously anyone that has prophesied and cast out devils in the name of Christ considers themselves a Christian, but Jesus' answer was pretty plain. There are some He never knew....within Christianity.

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

 

[freeindeed2]

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Jesus is the narrow way. He is the way, truth, and life. Nobody comes to the Father except through him. It's not a sect, denomination, or secret underground tunnel. It's Jesus Christ, period. There is no other way, but ALL can enter through him.

Being in the minority CAN be good.

The body of Christ (true chruch) is a minority. Trying to subdivide the body of Christ serves no purpose than to distract from the salvation offered as a free gift to those who believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are works/law/leagalist oriented people who God NEVER knew. They were never a part of the body of Christ, rather they wanted their own doing/keeping/observing to count for something (which it didn't), but it only counted for unrighteousness since they did not come to the Father through the only Way, Truth, and Life, Jesus Christ.

Obviously anyone that has prophesied and cast out devils in the name of Christ considers themselves a Christian, but Jesus' answer was pretty plain. There are some He never knew....within Christianity.

Yes. As I said, they were counting on what they did to obtain eternal life. It simply does not work. It is based solely on the Lamb who alone is worthy, Jesus Christ.

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

The context of that passage is building your foundation on the Rock, Christ Jesus. It's about not focussing on the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye while having a plank in your own. It's about the fruit that is produced in us and what it's source is. Good fruit is produced by God living in us (fruit OF the Spirit), bad fruit is produced by ourselves (or anything else other than God). It's about what's IN our hearts (God, or anthing else). This verse is often used out of its larger context to try and support something the context does not say. But all together it leaves us focussed on our Savior and what he does, rather than ourselves and what we 'do'. Our works are filthy rags.

May Jesus alone be lifted up.

BTW, has anyone here ever called him up and talked to him? I have. Maybe it would be good to go to your brother by yourself first in the spirit of Matt 18 before trying to discount him on a public forum where he is not allowed to give responses. He's a nice guy and easy to talk to.

 

[sentipente]

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Being in the minority CAN be good.

Here is another passage that does not even close to saying what so many try to make it say. Nothing in that passage implies that it is best to be among the few. That verse comes after the one that talks about the wide gate and the broad road but it seems everybody missed the specificity of the language or chose to ignore it.[bible]Matthew 7:13-14[/bible]
It does not say many find the wide gate. It says many enter the wide gate. Then it says that few find the narrow gate. Finding is not the same as entering. Entering is not the same as completing. Few finding does not mean that few enter. And many entering does not mean many go to the end. We are so intent on keeping as many people out of "our heaven" as we can that we overlook the message. Those who are filled with love and have found the narrow road will naturally call out to those who stumbled into the wide gate. Why are we intent on creating an exclusive club when Jesus gave His all and bent over backward to save us ALL? Where did this selfish streak come from?

 

[Telaquapacky]

My dad (not an Adventist) held a majoritarian philosophy. He thought the majority was always right. He told me how he first picked up this bit of worldly wisdom. In grade school, his teacher was giving a lesson in arithmetic, and put an addition problem on the blackboard. He told the students to do the problem quietly and then raise their hands when they were finished. When they were finished, he told them to put their hands down.

"Now," he said, "How many of you got the answer, 46? Raise your hands."

A few students raised their hands.

"How many of you got 47?"

Then the clear majority in the room raised their hands.

"How many of you got 48?"

Now nobody else raised their hands, because they saw that the majority had said 47, and they did not want to look foolish.

"The answer is 46." said the teacher.

Then a student asked, "How do you know that the answer is 46? You did not even do the problem."

The teacher said, "I did not have to do the problem. I simply asked the class, and the majority said, 46- so the answer must be 46, because the majority is always right."

I had a conversation with a Muslim, in which he told me how thrilling it was to go on the Haj (pilgrimage to Mecca, which makes a person a full-fledged Muslim). He said, "There were thousands of us, all shouting at once. It felt so powerful and moving!"

I wonder where we would be if Elijah believed that the majority is always right, or if he thought that the energy of a crowd was the thing that makes religion right.

I'm not saying the majority is always wrong, but I don't think spiritual things are properly discerned by taking a poll- sounds a bit humanistic to me. I think spiritual things are discerned differently.

People sometimes leave the church, or feel put off by it because we are not as big or as popular as other churches. The Sabbath is a big case in point. Obviously, it goes against the grain of the whole world. I read the former pastor's testimony, and I saw some fear of non-conformity, and attraction to what's popular subtly influencing his thinking.

I agree that there are some points here we SDA's need to look at, but we need to guard against the motivation to let our spiritual decisions be guided by the crowd.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Jesus is the narrow way. He is the way, truth, and life. Nobody comes to the Father except through him. It's not a sect, denomination, or secret underground tunnel. It's Jesus Christ, period. There is no other way, but ALL can enter through him.

I totally agree that all CAN enter through Him (and He's the only way), but not all do.

He told us to do the will of His Father in heaven, but a lot of Christians do not want to do it...they want their own way and they want the "feelings".

They want a Savior, not a Lord.

The context of that passage is building your foundation on the Rock, Christ Jesus. It's about not focussing on the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye while having a plank in your own. It's about the fruit that is produced in us and what it's source is. Good fruit is produced by God living in us (fruit OF the Spirit), bad fruit is produced by ourselves (or anything else other than God). It's about what's IN our hearts (God, or anthing else). This verse is often used out of its larger context to try and support something the context does not say. But all together it leaves us focussed on our Savior and what he does, rather than ourselves and what we 'do'. Our works are filthy rags.

You mean our righteousness is filthy rags, right? Faith without works is dead.

I gotta go for a little while, so I didn't have time to comment on everything you said. Solly.

And Telequapacky....AMEN!

 

[Adventtruth]

[/size]

I very clearly told you before verses 2 and 4 form an inclusio--do you know what that means?

So whats your argument pertaining to what the original poster said? You are arguing that the sabbath is binding upon believers fro salvation arent you?

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

Jesus is the narrow way. He is the way, truth, and life. Nobody comes to the Father except through him. It's not a sect, denomination, or secret underground tunnel. It's Jesus Christ, period. There is no other way, but ALL can enter through him.


The body of Christ (true chruch) is a minority. Trying to subdivide the body of Christ serves no purpose than to distract from the salvation offered as a free gift to those who believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation.


These are works/law/leagalist oriented people who God NEVER knew. They were never a part of the body of Christ, rather they wanted their own doing/keeping/observing to count for something (which it didn't), but it only counted for unrighteousness since they did not come to the Father through the only Way, Truth, and Life, Jesus Christ.


Yes. As I said, they were counting on what they did to obtain eternal life. It simply does not work. It is based solely on the Lamb who alone is worthy, Jesus Christ.


The context of that passage is building your foundation on the Rock, Christ Jesus. It's about not focussing on the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye while having a plank in your own. It's about the fruit that is produced in us and what it's source is. Good fruit is produced by God living in us (fruit OF the Spirit), bad fruit is produced by ourselves (or anything else other than God). It's about what's IN our hearts (God, or anthing else). This verse is often used out of its larger context to try and support something the context does not say. But all together it leaves us focussed on our Savior and what he does, rather than ourselves and what we 'do'. Our works are filthy rags.

May Jesus alone be lifted up.

BTW, has anyone here ever called him up and talked to him? I have. Maybe it would be good to go to your brother by yourself first in the spirit of Matt 18 before trying to discount him on a public forum where he is not allowed to give responses. He's a nice guy and easy to talk to.

Did you notice how Trust and Obey never even said one thing about the red quote?

AT

 

[freeindeed2]

I totally agree that all CAN enter through Him (and He's the only way), but not all do.

He told us to do the will of His Father in heaven, but a lot of Christians do not want to do it...they want their own way and they want the "feelings".

They want a Savior, not a Lord.

Believing in the Son is obeying the Father.

You mean our righteousness is filthy rags, right? Faith without works is dead.

Whose works are righteous...ours, or God's? Would anyone here care to stand before Holy God on the merits of their own works?

I gotta go for a little while, so I didn't have time to comment on everything you said. Solly.

I know. I got your PM. God bless.

 

[NightEternal]

good points NE.... speak the truth... in love of course....

Unfortunately Stormy, it's all for nothing and a waste of typing time. You see, I have dealt with the perfectionists may times over the years, and the pattern is always the same. They tear into the salvation Gospel of Luther as 'sloppy agape', 'cheap grace', 'easy believeism' or some other such nonsense. No matter how plain you make it that sinless perfection is a bankrupt belief, they will never accept it. Never. Usually once you have laid it out clearly, they will then get angry and resort to bludgeoning you with EGW. Typically, it will be quotes where she speaks about the the straight testimony and the shaking of God's people. Because, naturally, they automatically assume she is speaking of sinless perfection as the straight testimony belief that will divide God's true people from the false. Unfortunately for them, that is not at all what she identifies as the catalyst for the shaking. I have reserarched this, and she is speaking about righteousness by faith, the same belief that she rebuked Butler and his legalistic cronies for rejecting. The same belief that she heartily endorsed Waggoner and Jones for promoting in 1888. The same belief that caused Butler's followers to turn on Waggoner and Jones like a pack of savage wolves. Righteousness by faith was the sword that divided that conference and the early SDA church right down the middle, and so it will again. Unfortunately, Waggoner and Jones promoted a convoluted, muddled understanding of true righteousness by faith. It was nowhere near the clarity of Luther's justification by faith, which had none of the perfectionist leanings Waggoner and Jones loaded it with. EGW was a huge fan of Luther, as can clearly be seen in the Great Controversy.

The perfectionists hate pure, Reformation righteousness by faith. It's poison to them, new theology waste that deserves to be crushed out of existence. Many such as Larry Kirkpatrick and Kevin Paulson are still hard at work doing this. They plug thier ears, stomp thier feet and cry out in agony when we Evangelical SDA's promote it. Unfortunately for them, we will never shut up and we will never stop preaching it. They will have to kill us if they want to silence us. Luther's salvation theology will be heard in Adventism and justification by faith will be lifted from the dust and raised proudly for all to see.

And that belief is what is the 'straight testimony' which is going to shake this church right to its foundations.

 

[StormyOne]

Unfortunately Stormy, it's all for nothing and a waste of typing time. You see, I have dealt with the perfectionists may times over the years, and the pattern is always the same. They tear into the salvation Gospel of Luther as 'sloppy agape', 'cheap grace', 'easy believeism' or some other such nonsense. No matter how plain you make it that sinless perfection is a bankrupt belief, they will never accept it. Never. Usually once you have laid it out clearly, they will then get angry and resort to bludgeoning you with EGW. Typically, it will be quotes where she speaks about the the straight testimony and the shaking of God's people. Because, naturally, they automatically assume she is speaking of sinless perfection as the straight testimony belief that will divide God's true people from the false. Unfortunately for them, that is not at all what she identifies as the catalyst for the shaking. I have reserarched this, and she is speaking about righteousness by faith, the same belief that she rebuked Butler and his legalistic cronies for rejecting. The same belief that she heartily endorsed Waggoner and Jones for promoting in 1888. The same belief that caused Butler's followers to turn on Waggoner and Jones like a pack of savage wolves. Righteousness by faith was the sword that divided that conference and the early SDA church right down the middle, and so it will again. Unfortunately, Waggoner and Jones promoted a convoluted, muddled understanding of true righteousness by faith. It was nowhere near the clarity of Luther's justification by faith, which had none of the perfectionist leanings Waggoner and Jones loaded it with. EGW was a huge fan of Luther, as can clearly be seen in the Great Controversy.

The perfectionists hate pure, Reformation righteousness by faith. It's poison to them, new theology waste that deserves to be crushed out of existence. Many such as Larry Kirkpatrick and Kevin Paulson are still hard at work doing this. They plug thier ears, stomp thier feet and cry out in agony when we Evangelical SDA's promote it. Unfortunately for them, we will never shut up and we will never stop preaching it. They will have to kill us if they want to silence us. Luther's salvation theology will be heard in Adventism and justification by faith will be lifted from the dust and raised proudly for all to see.

And that belief is what is the 'straight testimony' which is going to shake this church right to its foundations.

it is interesting to observe that folks who believe in sinless perfection or its variation tend to value the concept of "truth" moreso than love and at times are quick to say who is and is not a true christian. That is the flaw with that belief system. You end up with brother superior or brother inferior. Consequently it devolves into salvation by works which is already our leaning as adventists..... it is also interesting that some who have that belief, i.e. attaining perfection tend to be on the hateful side... seems to me that the gospel was liberating bringing joy into the life of the believer, not some of the joyless, sour, folks that we have seen..... but that's just me...

 

[TrustAndObey]

BTW, has anyone here ever called him up and talked to him? I have. Maybe it would be good to go to your brother by yourself first in the spirit of Matt 18 before trying to discount him on a public forum where he is not allowed to give responses. He's a nice guy and easy to talk to.

Who, exactly, is "him"?

 

[honorthesabbath]

When Jesus saved me, almost instantly some changes came into my life.

First HE cleaned up my language. I just STOPPED swearing. Those nasty words didn't even come to mind when I became perturbed about something. POOF--gone, not by my efforts--He simply just took them. I guess He figured I couldn't speak the gospel AND have profanity pouring out of the same channel.

Then HE began causing me to hate some of the movies I had been enjoying in my former life. Pretty early on I began to realize how disgusting some of those movies were. And so--I just stopped watching them. Just toally lost interest. My mind now was on holy things.

Then the cigarettes and booze lost their hold on me --I KNOW thru His grace. I am no longer a prisoner to them.

Now I could go on and on about the changes Jesus has wrought in my life, but for times sake, I have just one question for those who naysay the 'perfection theory'.

If Jesus could take those things out of in my life--things that I LOVED doing--and replaced them with the love of HIS things. Do you think that He is done with me? Do you think He is satisfied with my character as is? Or is there more work to do? And if there is more work to do--what is the final goal? Partial perfection? Do you think Jesus would willingly STOP purifying our characters just SHORT of perfection?

It is the GOAL of Jesus to transform our minds to be WHOLLY His. No mind that retains the love of ONE sin will enter into eternal life, because that ONE cherished sin was implicated on the Cross.

Only those who love their sin more than their Saviour would even consider holding onto one. But thanks be to God for His extreme love and patience towards us all.

 

[StormyOne]

You are correct, it is something that God does in us, not something that we do in and of ourselves.

I don't think anyone is saying that they want to hold on to sin... likewise the bible text often quoted "Therefore be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect" comes at the end of a list of qualities that his followers would have. A better rendering of the text is be complete as your heavenly father is complete. Or be mature as your father is mature... however it is another text that we get twisted....

 

[mva1985]

2 Peter 1:

"5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins."

 

[NightEternal]

I have just one question for those who naysay the 'perfection theory'.

Well, I know I am supposed to be ignoring these posts, but I am a naysayer of perfectionism, so...

If Jesus could take those things out of in my life--things that I LOVED doing--and replaced them with the love of HIS things. Do you think that He is done with me?

There is a saying: "I may not be where I am supposed to be, but thank God I am not where I used to be."

The point is, yes we will see changes in our lives and have victories over certain besetting, behavioral sins in this lifetime, of course. But the complete transformation back to the sinless nature of Adam does not take place before glorification. So no, God is not finished with us, obviously. He will complete the good work He has begun in us. The problem is when we take that concept and maintain it is sinless perfection this side of Heaven that is under discussion. To ultimately and completely finish the good work He has begun in us, He must glorify us.

Do you think He is satisfied with my character as is?

No. That is why He who has justified us, has sanctified us, and He who has sanctified us will glorify us. Only then will He be satisfied. And even when we are in Heaven, we will still be growing in grace, learning, maturing. The process does not end when this life is over.

Or is there more work to do?

You cannot 'work' to gain anything from God. He has already lavished all that we need for salvation as a free gift. The battle of the flesh we fight daily will be fought until Christ returns.

And if there is more work to do--what is the final goal?

Our spiritual growth is not a means to an end. It is merely a love response to our salvation. There is no 'goal' that we have to achieve to find favor with God. We already have His favor as a result of His Son's rightousness. As far as the perfection that Heaven requires, we already have that in the imputed righteousness of Christ. This is how it must be until glorification takes place.

Partial perfection? Do you think Jesus would willingly STOP purifying our characters just SHORT of perfection?

We already have full perfection in Christ. This whole 'purification' process concept is foreign to the Gospel. It is Catholic to the core, the very thing Luther abandoned when he finally read Romans in its full clarity. No more need to purge, scourge, purify to gain Christ's favor. No more brutal fasting or climbing the monastary stairs on his knees. The finest efforts and deeds at making ourselves 'better' are rags in the eyes of God. We are in a hopeless state. Only glorification will finally set things right with our characters and natures.

It is the GOAL of Jesus to transform our minds to be WHOLLY His.

We can have the mind of Christ right now insofar as emulating Him and trying to be more Christ-like. However, we are inherently sinful and corrupt, so a complete transformation to sinlessness while we have this fallen nature will not transpire before Christ glorfies us. We are at emnity with God by our very natures and at war with His principals. As Paul says, we do not those things which are good, and the things that are not good we do. It's ingrained in us. This is why it is such a terrible thing to maintain that Christ had a fallen, sinful human nature. The Lord Himself would have been at war with His own principals. Impossible. Our natures are drawn to sin like a magnet, bent towards iniquity.

Who will deliver us from this body of death? Christ. When He comes back and changes us in the twinkling of an eye.

No mind that retains the love of ONE sin will enter into eternal life, because that ONE cherished sin was implicated on the Cross.

No, no, NO. This 'cherished sin' stuff is exactly what drives so many from Adventism in discouragement. Assurance of salvation is brutally raped by such a concept. The sin problem goes far, far beyond behavior. It is a terminal CONDITION. The sins are only a result of the SIN problem.

Only those who love their sin more than their Saviour would even consider holding onto one. But thanks be to God for His extreme love and patience towards us all.

Maybe we should just leave this alone. It's obvious we are not even remotely on the same wavelength.

 

[freeindeed2]

[/color][/b]

Who, exactly, is "him"?

Greg Taylor. He's the reason for the title of this thread. Read the OP and you'll see his name. I was just wondering if anyone (not you specifically) had bothered to give him a call? Nobody from where I left ever called me, yet the rumors are flying rampant through that community, and still not one bothered to go to the source by phone, email, letter, or otherwise. In 35 years of SDAism I found that to be typical, although a small handful have surprised me and I respect them and consider them to be my friends to this very day.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

honor wrote:

It is the GOAL of Jesus to transform our minds to be WHOLLY His. No mind that retains the love of ONE sin will enter into eternal life, because that ONE cherished sin was implicated on the Cross.

If this was true then there is yet to be one person who shall be granted eternal life. In fact if you die tomorrow you would be lost also. This is the problem with perfection theology, it destroys our hope because if we are honest we know we are far from sin free, one sin and out we go. Then there are those who are not honest with themselves and pretend that they no longer sin at all. I have met them. They visited a self supporting school which I lived near. They took in a few of the people but fortunately it did not last long and they saw those people for the frauds they were.

By the way sin was not implicated on the cross it was forgiven which is why it is called gospel and why perfectionism is anti-gospel.

 

[NightEternal]

Right on RC.

Freeindeed, I did not start this thread to discount any of Greg's assertions or to gossip about his decision to leave the church. In fact, just the opposite. I wanted to bring out the areas where he was dead-on and I agreed.

Somehow, the thread turned into a Sabbath defense treatise, which was not even the part of the letter I wanted to zero in on.

Threads have a way of going wonky pretty fast.

What's his e-mail?