Pastor leaves Adventism

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Fascinating, Senti. Could you favor me with a brief description of your understanding of inspiration? I take it from this post that you are NOT a believer in "literal" inspiration (i.e., word for word). I see it as a conceptual/visionary thing which the human mind then "translates" into human figures of speech for the purpose of communication. I am interested to hear how you view it.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Why is passion and zeal always mistaken for venom and anger? I have neither unless I see the salvation Gospel being perverted by abberant, sinless perfection theology. The same theology that nearly shipwrecked and ruined my Adventist experience and drove me out of the church. The same theology that has successfully done that very thing to countless others. The victims litter the landscape, inside and outside the church. My response to OnTheDL was strong in the works/faith thread, yes. The Bible says if anyone comes to you and proclaims another gospel, let him be declared anathema. So my calling his understanding 'bankrupt' and 'dead-end' certainly pales in comparison to that.

I will always fight any perversion of Reformation justification by faith, until I breathe my last.

Nothing I have said has been idle. I know exactly what and how I want to say everything I type.

Reps to the max.

 

[sentipente]

Fascinating, Senti. Could you favor me with a brief description of your understanding of inspiration?

First, inspiration is not a religious phenomenon. It is a natural phenomenon by which the operational information concerning the universe that resides in the mind of the Creator is transmitted on open frequencies to the intelligent creation. How that information if detected, analysed, assimilated and transmitted depends on the diligence of the receiving individual.

 

[sentipente]

Why is passion and zeal always mistaken for venom and anger?

Because it is easier to war against those you have first demonized. That is the nature of war. It is easy to war against the evil and those you are convinced you must war against must first be demonized. It works no other way.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

First, inspiration is not a religious phenomenon. It is a natural phenomenon by which the operational information concerning the universe that resides in the mind of the Creator is transmitted on open frequencies to the intelligent creation. How that information if detected, analysed, assimilated and transmitted depends on the diligence of the receiving individual.

Excellent!! I like.

I would like to hear more.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Because it is easier to war against those you have first demonized. That is the nature of war. It is easy to war against the evil and those you are convinced you must war against must first be demonized. It works no other way.

Yes and there's one certain way to TRULY demonize the actually demonized (daimonizomai) ...

 

[Jimlarmore]

Why is passion and zeal always mistaken for venom and anger? I have neither unless I see the salvation Gospel being perverted by abberant, sinless perfection theology. The same theology that nearly shipwrecked and ruined my Adventist experience and drove me out of the church. The same theology that has successfully done that very thing to countless others.

There is a difference between passion and zeal and inciting anger or using an invective tone. Think about that. I've seen many come and go in our church family but to say they were driven out is disingenuous. Most came to be uncomfortable/unacceptable with what they considered constraints or standards that they didn't want to comform to. Whether it was smoking, drinking, keeping the Sabbath, you name it. They had to leave because their desires drove them away from the environment that they felt condemned by.

I will always fight any perversion of Reformation justification by faith, until I breathe my last.

Praise God and I will too but the way we do it is important too. Any time we write something that incites anger or ill will we are feeding an igo driven set of monsters called pride and emotion. Nothing is accomplished when that happens and we are certainly not glorifying our creator.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[NightEternal]

There is a difference between passion and zeal and inciting anger or using an invective tone.

I do no such thing. I'll thank you to not assume to know my motivations by labeling me an 'inciter'.

I've seen many come and go in our church family but to say they were driven out is disingenuous. Most came to be uncomfortable/unacceptable with what they considered constraints or standards that they didn't want to comform to. Whether it was smoking, drinking, keeping the Sabbath, you name it. They had to leave because their desires drove them away from the environment that they felt condemned by.

You are not talking to the same formers I am, obviously.

Praise God and I will too but the way we do it is important too. Any time we write something that incites anger or ill will we are feeding an igo driven set of monsters called pride and emotion. Nothing is accomplished when that happens and we are certainly not glorifying our creator.

Thanks for the psychoanalyzation, but your diagnosis is nothing more than your opinion.

No passion and emotion? Ha! You would not have gotten along very well with the apostle Paul then. Especially when he expressed a desire for the circumcision party's knife to slip!

 

[Jimlarmore]

Though I have no clue what you are referring to specifically with this post, I have to say AMEN to these words. My experience is being attacked all over this board and while the mods are sympathetic the MOB wants to see me hung, strung, tarred, feathered, stockaded, scarlet-lettered, and burned at the stake for a martyr to Satan.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I certainly hope that I have not been one who you feel would like to see this happen to you. If you do then I hope you will accept my apology because I certainly don't wish you harm in any way. Your words are strong and condemning saying that there is a mob who would like to see you strung, tarred , feathered, etc. I only feel love for you sister. I honestly hope you can find Jesus and salvation but at this particular point I wish you peace because I sense you don't have it in your life right now.


God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Oh goodness no Jim! There is a difference between merely disagreeing on a point of view versus taking on the attitudes and hostilities I described above. Thus far I have observed you to disagree with me, but thus far you have not caused me to feel attacked or harmed. Be at peace. I recognize the difference. And if you ever were to cross that line trust me, I'd let you know.

I have no peace because I am the Habitation. It goes with the territory. I am allowed brief moments of contact with God, which bring me tremendous comfort.

 

[sentipente]

Excellent!! I like.

I would like to hear more.

I'm going to repost that definition in my thread on inspiration. That is a better place to discuss it.

 

[NightEternal]

Well, we lost another one.

I have written the following as an exercise to think through the facts about my church's history and beliefs, and about E G White. I want to come to a simple and reasonable conclusion about the disturbing new information I have been studying. I am an SDA pastor who is on a journey out of the church. In a certain sense I am already out, that is, the scales are off of my eyes. I welcome your constructive criticism and any other help you can give.

From what I have read it seems clear that Ellen White, while claiming to have the gift of prophecy was involved in fanaticism. She was hysterical and made several false predictions. None of her supposed prophecies contain any unique or original material, All of it can be shown to have been borrowed from others. She never contributed any new understanding about anything, but always parroted the ideas of those she was around.

In the mid 1840s EGW was a mentally and emotionally unstable young woman in very poor health. These were hysterical times in the religious life of that day. She herself was a victim of hysteria. She and others claimed that she had been given the gift of prophecy because she had these episodes of seeing things, of going off into a trance or vision. Her visions began in December 1844, and one of her first visions was to instruct the people that the door of salvation, or probation was to remain closed to the world and those who had renounced the message of the Second Advent taking place in October of 1844. This vision reinstated the teaching that probation had closed for everyone except the Advent people on October 22, 1844. She and those with her continued to cling to this false view for another 6 years. In addition she made unfulfilled and false predictions during that time having to do with the Advent of Christ. Can anyone point to any significant truth that she presented during this time? Anything that would indicate that she was a true prophet? But, If she made false predictions and behaved like a false prophet at the beginning of her career, at what point did she become a true prophet?

Denial runs like a course of bricks through the history of Adventism. denial and then deception. What really happened way back then? Well you say, a large group of people believed and expected Jesus to come on October 22, 1844, and He did not come. What did they do? Most of them, actually almost all of them within a very short time decided that they had been completely mistaken in their understanding of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, and they went back to their old churches or stayed home. But they all gave up their hope in the October 22 prediction. All that is except for a very small group that could not believe that they had been wrong. After all, it had been so exciting, such a wonderful prospect, such times of sweet Christian fellowship, such impressive gatherings of people. How could it be wrong when it felt so right? But the whole idea of predicting the very time when Christ would come goes directly against the Word of Christ Himself! Jesus said, no one knows the day or the hour. So who concocted the whole Advent plot and prophetic scenario, God, or the Devil? The remaining group believed that it was God and that they had the confirmation in the visions of a 17 year old girl. Was this deliverance from their disappointment or escape into denial? In order to maintain the illusion of the wonderful experience they had in the Millerite movement, they evolved the investigative judgment in heaven teaching. Interestingly enough the man who put it together soon abandoned it, but it was affirmed by Ellen Harmon.

And the denials have continued, and they have strained the credulity of honest and informed people. James and Ellen White denied that any books had been published by EGW before the 1851 Experience and Views. The publishers deny that any parts of the earlier books were left out of the book Early Writings. In this book Ellen White denies being involved in the hysterical fanaticism of 1845 through 1850. They certainly deny that they believed the door of salvation was closed for nearly seven years and that the time of trouble was begun during that time and many false predictions were made. They were still trying to ride their Millerite high, but it was not going to work. During this time it might be said of them that they were so distracted with heavenly prospects, that they were of no earthly good, and were actually a danger to others and to themselves.

Ellen White denies getting any of her material from other sources. She claims that God showed her everything. Research has shown that this is a barefaced lie. The church no longer denies that she borrowed or plagiarized(stole) other people's work and then sold it as her own. But they continue to deny that she lied about it. What is clear is that Ellen and James White became religious hucksters of the first order, and the church continues to prey on ignorant and simple minded people. It is so hypocritical that EGW was railing against the Sunday churches while at the same time she was stealing the best that their writers had to offer. If they were all lost and of the Devil, why would you want to steal their best thoughts? Because you could not come up with any of your own. Evidently God was not telling her much.

Seventh-day Adventism appeals to some people at a certain point in their development. It represents specificity It is a security blanket, a blankie, a nuk, a binky. At some point you are supposed to grow up into your full stature of men and women in Christ. Can you do that leaning on the crutch of EGW? Letting her be the filter for all that you are willing to think, learn, and believe? It also plays to human paranoia and pride. It offers a compelling illusion of the future. It is pipe dream theology with self subtly at the center. It is very simply, paranoia. Adventists are afflicted with a twisted Bible EGW paranoia.

This all makes me think that Ellen, an isolated sickly child, was playing a game of let's pretend. She could play the role, work the masquerade. She did have these spells that seemed to get her a great deal of attention. Why not adopt the role of a visionary? She merely mimicked what others were presenting in her visionary revelations, but it seemed to work with some people. And if it did not work with some, she could denounce them with her new found shaman power. She could play on people's guilt and fear. She could see that her visions gave her power with a certain class of people, and her partner could see this and also the financial possibilities.

Think carefully through this sequence of events. EGW condemned the world and all other non Adventist Christians as lost for not accepting the 1844 date, and the prediction that Jesus would come physically on that date. Which He did not, and the world was right this time, and EGW was wrong. Then she changed her mind about what had happened on that date, and said that they all continued to be lost for not accepting that the investigative judgment had started on that date, which was something they had never had the opportunity to hear in the first place. Can the church honestly claim that this is how the gift of prophecy operated in Biblical times? It must be tough to be out of the group, and lost for not knowing what was predicted until EGW made up her mind what it was that had been predicted, and then she might change her mind tomorrow. When did Bible prophets ever claim the right to cover up failed prophecies? What is the difference between EGW's failed prophecies and those of the JW's relating to Christ's return in 1914 and 1975?

Adventism is also a pencil that has been sharpened too sharp. A knife too finely honed. Her edge will not hold up under use. Her main unique doctrines and her Apocalyptic package offer specificity and a compelling scenario, but at what price? Ignoring historical errors, Using proof text theology, and ignoring the texts that do not agree with your position; using another authority outside of the scriptures; She takes protestant presuppositions to extremes, and does the world the service of exposing some of them as remnants of Judaism that the church reincorporated in the early centuries. Organized religion could not handle Christians having true freedom in Christ and still control them. So she introduced taboos and rituals again.

Ironically the Adventism that villifies the Roman Church cannot escape being like her. She is perhaps more like her than her other so called protestant daughters. Notice the following parallels. Adventists share with papists the following theological threads. They both have a garbled works oriented gospel. They both operate from the perspective of an incomplete atonement on the cross. Adventists have the investigative judgment. Romists have the Mass. Both have an authority outside of the scriptures that in actual practice is treated as though it is infallible. Adventists have E G White, and Catholics have the Pope and tradition. Both make the keeping of a particular day of worship the mark of their power and authority. Both prey on the fear and ignorance of simple people. Both use guilt and paranoia to get people to do what they want. Both are reincarnations of Judaism.

http://64.226.233.122/discus/messages/11/5967.html?1187216131

Is this only going to get worse and worse as time goes on?

Just feeling totally bummed right now.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

It's amazing and uncanny how very much alike this testimony is to the thoughts I have ground through in my mind as well. But the part quoted below, I literally could have written myself, it is that spot-on.

This vision reinstated the teaching that probation had closed for everyone except the Advent people on October 22, 1844. She and those with her continued to cling to this false view for another 6 years. In addition she made unfulfilled and false predictions during that time having to do with the Advent of Christ. Can anyone point to any significant truth that she presented during this time? Anything that would indicate that she was a true prophet? But, If she made false predictions and behaved like a false prophet at the beginning of her career, at what point did she become a true prophet?

Denial runs like a course of bricks through the history of Adventism. denial and then deception. What really happened way back then? Well you say, a large group of people believed and expected Jesus to come on October 22, 1844, and He did not come. What did they do? Most of them, actually almost all of them within a very short time decided that they had been completely mistaken in their understanding of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, and they went back to their old churches or stayed home. But they all gave up their hope in the October 22 prediction. All that is except for a very small group that could not believe that they had been wrong. After all, it had been so exciting, such a wonderful prospect, such times of sweet Christian fellowship, such impressive gatherings of people. How could it be wrong when it felt so right? But the whole idea of predicting the very time when Christ would come goes directly against the Word of Christ Himself! Jesus said, no one knows the day or the hour. So who concocted the whole Advent plot and prophetic scenario, God, or the Devil? The remaining group believed that it was God and that they had the confirmation in the visions of a 17 year old girl. Was this deliverance from their disappointment or escape into denial? In order to maintain the illusion of the wonderful experience they had in the Millerite movement, they evolved the investigative judgment in heaven teaching. Interestingly enough the man who put it together soon abandoned it, but it was affirmed by Ellen Harmon.

And the denials have continued, and they have strained the credulity of honest and informed people.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

NightEternal, do not be discouraged. Lift up your head and look to Him who is on the move. A tremendous sign is on the horizon; many shall see it and be astonished and amazed. In that day do not seek to place new wine into old wineskins, but drink deeply the draught shared with you... and bear in mind whence Christ came and whither He returned, and all that befell Him from others during His DNA-sojourne....

 

[moicherie]

NE 'we' have not lost anything. I ask myself this question if the church was closed down tomorrow does that mean my relationship with the Creator will suddenly disappear? I should hope not. Because we subconsciously teach that leaving the Adventist church equates to leaving God we get upset when things like this happen, who knows where God is leading this man and to be honest as Jesus said to Peter 'what is it to thee, follow thou Me'...

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I believe (though only he can speak for himself) that Night's post is designed to try to persuade the denomination to take a good hard look at itself in light of these departures and cease from the party line that these departures are either the work of some mechanism ordained by God or due to some fault in the individuals themselves. The denomination has a morbid history of smarmy self-justification -- which leaks into and upon its adherents on the individual level at times -- that really just needs someone to explode from inside with a hefty barrel of mercury fulminate or something.

 

[NightEternal]

NE 'we' have not lost anything.

We have though Moicherie. 'We', meaning those who desperately want to see reform in the church, have lost another good, keen minister who could clearly discern some of the problems we are facing as a denomination. But instead of staying in and trying to help those of us who also see the problems affect change, he plans on bailing and abandoning ship, leaving this monumental task for us to deal with.

This is the problem. It seems like the ones who best can diagnose and isolate our problems end up leaving. How can we ever turn this Titanic around if this keeps happening?

I ask myself this question if the church was closed down tomorrow does that mean my relationship with the Creator will suddenly disappear? I should hope not.

Of course not. I have never believed that.

Because we subconsciously teach that leaving the Adventist church equates to leaving God

No, no. That is not at all what I believe nor was that what I was saying. There is no 'Ark Of Safety' mentality here, believe me.

we get upset when things like this happen,

I'm not upset because I feel he has 'betrayed' the church. I am upset because the cause for reform in the church has suffered another blow. This man had wonderful potential as a pastor to contribute in the uprooting and discarding of the cultic elements that plague Adventism. Now he is plotting his course out.

who knows where God is leading this man and to be honest as Jesus said to Peter 'what is it to thee, follow thou Me'...

I just wish God would lead more of those who are in leadership to stay and fight the insanity instead of dropping the flag of reform and running the other way. We need HELP here. Fear-mongering, legalism, cultishness, heterodoxy and Phariseeism is not going to simply fade out and die by itself. We need soldiers like this man to stay and engage the falsehood so that we can corporately bring this church back to a true, Protestant, Sola Scriptura denomination with EGW in her rightful place.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Night, it appears these people choose their battles wisely.

There is no way to fight the inevitable. The .org will NOT change; therefore ipso facto it must, and will, die a painful death. You cannot redeem what is ultimately based on self-deception.

It is a money-making machine and will not alter the formula on that. But people are gradually losing interest in what it has to offer because outside of some interesting eschatological insights and a terrific body of legend and lore from which to springboard onto the Reconciliation Awareness, it really has very little. More to the point: what little it does offer is drowned beneath the horrible toll it exacts on people's spiritual and emotional well-being.

The people are insular and cliquish to a fault. While polite and civil most of the time, there is no warmth, and no opportunity for an outsider or stranger to fully integrate into "body life".

The gatekeepers bar the way to taking on any role of significance in anything if you are not "of the clique".

The manna on the banquet table is old. It breeds worms and rots, but people gobble it not even noticing they are dying.

The wineskins are old; attempting to put fresh wine in them causes them to burst and both to be lost.

Those who are departing see this and choose not to waste their time or energy any further.

 

[StormyOne]

that is the problem with those who believe that in order to be a "member" one must agree with everything that the church believes.... so when it becomes apparent that they no longer believe "everything" then they feel they must leave.... I don't share that mindset.....

 

[moicherie]

ok I understand where you stand now, NE we are closer than I thought. Perhaps this man left for his own sanity? Even tho I have not reached the same conclusion regarding EGW that he has, I too believe the church needs to put her in the rightful place (that she probably wanted) and to dethrone the platform of Pope EGW the first, last and everything.