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Pasteur and spontaneous generation

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Deamiter

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I dont think I answered all of your question...Pasteur apparently used a biological protein source for his experiment, and the reasoning being ....if no evidence for spontaneous generation could be developed from a provided biological source, then ....certainly, there could be no development from rocks!
There COULD be no development from rocks? I'm pretty confident that Pasteur never claimed such a thing!

To disprove a negative (that something did not happen) you need to rule out all possible scenarios -- a practically infinite number of environments. All that experiment has shown is that life probably did not arise in a heated test-tube of broth! He proved that life does not generally arise from nothing -- not that it never could and never has.

And I'm confused about your use of the term "self-generating molecules." Any self-replicating structure will be affected by natural selection in that those that replicate fastest and most often will dominate the population. Nobody has ever claimed that the molecules generated themselves, but self-replicating molecules are currently one of the best hypotheses regarding abiogenesis.
 
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withreason

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Quite right, no mechanism has ever been shown that can produce DNA from self-replicating molecules. Forgive my persistance on Pasteur, but when you said the following, you claimed that he disproved the "only explanation" of spontaneous generation. The statement is quite in error as spontaneous never claimed to explain the origin of all life and certainly not the origin of DNA (as DNA was unknown at the time). "Abiogenesis" is one current hypothesis, not the spontaneous generation which Pasteur disproved.



That said, whether God poofed the first organism(s) into existance, aliens seeded the planet or life arose via abiogenesis evolution remains with a huge amount of evidence (which would be off topic here). It's nice to know we're on the same page about Pasteur, spontaneous generation and abiogenesis though.
the argument for disproving spontaneous generation was widely accepted to have been proven by pasteur, the beginning of the abiogenesis argument is a revival of the same with added knowledge of DNA creating new definement for the implications of spontaneous generation, a test was conducted that proved a solid argument..IE..pasteur, that is my inference..
 
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withreason

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And I'm confused about your use of the term "self-generating molecules." Any self-replicating structure will be affected by natural selection in that those that replicate fastest and most often will dominate the population. Nobody has ever claimed that the molecules generated themselves, but self-replicating molecules are currently one of the best hypotheses regarding abiogenesis.
natural selection needs a precursor!!! what generated the first molecule in order for self-replication? amino acid? then protein? or, RNA, or, DNA? replication has to start from a precursor for all of natural selection to work! without mutation this theory fallls apart fast!
 
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withreason

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withreason, out of curiosity, if it were shown that the simplest lifeforms could not, in fact, arise via natural means (and it might be), do you really think this would negate evolutionary theory, which posits adaptive change through time of lineages?
I think you answered your own question?
is this theory adaptive to the inclusion of supernatural, or even metaphysical? or would it need to be completely redefined? or, has argument petrified this theory.
I have no problems with adaptive changes through time, I have problems with macro-evolution, that question is actually very good !! and I honestly have to say...I'm not sure!
 
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Mallon

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I think you answered your own question?
is this theory adaptive to the inclusion of supernatural, or even metaphysical? or would it need to be completely redefined? or, has argument petrified this theory.
This may come as a surprise, withreason, but NO scientific theory is "adaptive" to the inclusion of the supernatural. Not evolution, not gravitational theory, not germ theory. So if it's appeal to God that validates a theory for you, you're just as well off to reject these latter theories, too, lest you be a hypocrite.
Thanks for taking a stab at the question, though. My point is simply that whether God used magic or natural means to create the first life, none of this is relevant to the theory of evolution.
 
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Deamiter

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This may come as a surprise, withreason, but NO scientific theory is "adaptive" to the inclusion of the supernatural. Not evolution, not gravitational theory, not germ theory. So if it's appeal to God that validates a theory for you, you're just as well off to reject these latter theories, too, lest you be a hypocrite.
Thanks for taking a stab at the question, though. My point is simply that whether God used magic or natural means to create the first life, none of this is relevant to the theory of evolution.
And that's certainly not because these theories reject the existance of God! Science simply cannot test for the supernatural -- there's no way to confirm or disprove such a test. I often get errant data in experiments -- once I even "showed" that the fine structure constant was about half the accepted value. Now it is of course POSSIBLE that I recorded a miracle, but there's no way to distinguish between such an anomaly and a simple bad measurement!

Scientists do not look for divine intervention because it is not repeatable. No scientific theory is "adaptable" to include divine intervention. That said, since all science is based on the observed conclusion that measurements ARE repeatable, the conclusions of science describe the universe with laws that God set up for us. Christians like myself generally believe that God does intervene but that in most cases, he works his miracles through the constant laws of nature that he designed in the first place and which science can measure and describe.
 
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withreason

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This may come as a surprise, withreason, but NO scientific theory is "adaptive" to the inclusion of the supernatural. Not evolution, not gravitational theory, not germ theory. So if it's appeal to God that validates a theory for you, you're just as well off to reject these latter theories, too, lest you be a hypocrite.
Thanks for taking a stab at the question, though. My point is simply that whether God used magic or natural means to create the first life, none of this is relevant to the theory of evolution.
Crafty fellow...I should have known you would be setting me up with a loaded question!..and I thought there was just a hint of concession?
but, if you have not noticed...my entire argument is that very subject! and my prior post to you about the merits, and the standards set by the science academy is the stumbling block to determining truth! ...there are things that can not be explained by the reasoning of the current scientific deduction of measure. after your measurements have been exhausted trying to compile theory for the un-explainable. while the answer has been staring at you the entire time ....it will only prove one more law of God ...
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]1Co 1:27 - But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise[/FONT]
This theory of evolution has more holes in it than your geological column can fill...!! and this is what the scientific mind accepts as knowledge..?? and teaches our kids as fact!
it purposes that all explanation must be defined by rules that are governed by natural forces and observable ....while teaching a theory as fact ...not because it has been proven! but, because it has not been completely un-proven.
 
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Mallon

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Crafty fellow...I should have known you would be setting me up with a loaded question!
It wasn't a loaded question, by any means. It was a simple, straightforward one: Does the invalidation of abiogenesis have any bearing on the theory of evolution? The answer is 'no.'
and my prior post to you about the merits, and the standards set by the science academy is the stumbling block to determining truth!
withreason, if you were to come up with a new methodology for science that included appeal to the supernatural, how would you set it up? How could you possibly create an objective methodology that can distinguish between deities and rule out those that do not pass the test? I CHALLENGE you and every other creationist to come up with an answer to this question, because to date, no one has.
This theory of evolution has more holes in it than your geological column can fill...!! and this is what the scientific mind accepts as knowledge..?? and teaches our kids as fact!
Honestly, I'm not even going to bother responding to allegations like this anymore unless it comes from someone with a graduate degree in the biological sciences. If I had a nickel for every layman fundamentalist who decries the theory of evolution without ever having set their foot in a lab, I would be a millionaire.
it purposes that all explanation must be defined by rules that are governed by natural forces and observable ....while teaching a theory as fact ...not because it has been proven! but, because it has not been completely un-proven.
Don't be a hypocrite, withreason. Again, EVERY scientific theory follows this rubric. If you don't like it, denounce science, stop going to the doctor, and start praying that God will miraculously help you along in life.
 
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withreason

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withreason, if you were to come up with a new methodology for science that included appeal to the supernatural, how would you set it up? How could you possibly create an objective methodology that can distinguish between deities and rule out those that do not pass the test? I CHALLENGE you and every other creationist to come up with an answer to this question, because to date, no one has.

you are creating a Hypothetical addendum, why? I like science! I am not slamming science! science is good! I would hate to be without the comforts scientific achievement has brought to us...and there is NO scientific methodology to distinguish deity..."which is your point I'm sure" and mine! Evolution is what I am against! not because it is theory! if it was purposed and taught as theory instead of fact! in our public schools...I wouldnt be so critical about it! ...but, if...God proves to be the only explanation, how will you scientificaly meassure and repair the damage??
Honestly, I'm not even going to bother responding to allegations like this anymore unless it comes from someone with a graduate degree in the biological sciences. If I had a nickel for every layman fundamentalist who decries the theory of evolution without ever having set their foot in a lab, I would be a millionaire.
So..all humanity is to blindly fallow your theory and conlusions.. nice...I do recall that most of our scientific achievements and discovery in history are by men with no degree! ..if you dont feel comfortable having your theory critique'd by laymen..then keep it out of our public schools so I dont have to pay for it!!
Don't be a hypocrite, withreason. Again, EVERY scientific theory follows this rubric. If you don't like it, denounce science, stop going to the doctor, and start praying that God will miraculously help you along in life.
I think I will attempt to pray that God will help you instead!...
:wave:
 
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rmwilliamsll

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I do recall that most of our scientific achievements and discovery in history are by men with no degree!

as a science matures less and less important discoveries will be made by people outside of the system. it is simply a collorary to the laws of diminishing returns. So to point out that most of the important discoveries were by people without degrees (a measure of their insideness of the system) is trival, for the most important and momenteous discoveries are always the first ones.

however point out an important physics discovery within the 20thC that was done by a gifted amateur, without a degree? physics because of it's first and advanced character reached maturity much earlier than biology or even chemistry. Try to point out a significant biological science discovery in the second half of the 20thC made by an amateur, ie without a degree.

your statement is a no brainer and is merely trivally true.

if it was purposed and taught as theory instead of fact!

the best description seems to be that evolution is both a theory and a fact, the unfortunate collusion of using a single word to describe both a large and well evidenced theory and the same word to describe speciation and population's changing allele frequency over time. perhaps the distinction of microevolution and macro evolution would be useful. macroevolution is a theory, microevolution is a fact. the problem comes from how people misuse words in order to prove a point rather than to illuminate others.

God proves to be the only explanation,

you appear to believe that evolutionary theory and God theory are mutually exclusive, they are not, as many here will tell you, over and over again.
 
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gluadys

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the wiki on Pasteur has a couple of links to english translations:
http://biotech.law.lsu.edu/cphl/history/articles/pasteur.htm

these are the same 3 papers listed as chapters in:
http://books.google.com/books?vid=O...oc&dq=Pasteur&sig=cnzUg6SgMOXLgtryeZpc6OG0ywQ

now if i read French, i'd have no problem:

As it happens I do read French. It will take me sometime to digest all of these, but when I checked through the index of Volume 2, there were several segments on spontaneous generation (so that book on fermentation may well be a good place to start). In particular there was a full report of Pasteur's presentation to the Sorbonne on April 7, 1864 on the impossibility of spontaneous generation.

Deamiter, sorry to say, you are also in error. While Pasteur did disprove the spontaneous generation of maggots in meat, his experiments went much further than that. In the introductory section of his presentation to the Sorbonne, he mentions that by 1864 virtually no scientist still believed in the spontaneous generation of rats, insects, maggots or worms. But a new frontier had appeared with the invention of the microscope.

He quotes a long section from La Mer (The Ocean) by Michelet who contends that the spontaneous generation of microscopic life fills the gap between non-living matter and vegetative and animal life.

Pasteur's grand achievement in his own eyes, and the one he presented to the Sorbonne, was to show that Michelet was wrong, and that even microscopic life did not occur through spontaneous generation.

He first runs through an experiment by another scientist which apparently demonstrated spontaneous generation. He had used water purified by boiling it, used pure oxygen as the atmosphere in the container-to prevent any contamination that might exist in ordinary air, and introduced a filament of hay which had been baked at a fairly high temperature to kill any organisms on it. Yet he still got life forms growing on the hay despite all his precautions to introduce none.

Pasteur demonstrated that there was one thing he had not excluded. He had not taken into account the dust on the instrument he used to introduce the oxygen into the container. (Pasteur even demonstrated the omnipresence of dust by having the theatre darkened and a small beam of light shone through it in which air-born dust-particles could be seen. Sounds like he put on a good show.)

He then showed how he had repeated the experiment and done several variations on it in which he had used a goose-necked container with a dust trap in the neck so that particles in the incoming air did not come into contact with the water or other liquid he was using. These showed no evidence of spontaneous generation as long as they were protected from dust--even for years, yet microscopic growth showed up within days if dust particles were allowed to enter freely.

It is also clear that to Pasteur his demonstration that spontaneous generation did not occur, even in micro-organisms, was a blow against materialism.

Of course, there are still several differences between the theory of the spontaneous generation of life in the 19th century and current theories of abiogenesis. In the 19th century it was assumed not only that spontaneous generation was the primeval origin of life, but that it was still a contemporaneous process that could be observed. No one claims that abiogenesis as currently envisaged occurs today, since it requires substantially different atmospheric conditions.

Also in the 19th century it was assumed that the newly-discovered micro-organisms were the very simplest form of replicators. Modern theories see cells as too complex to be the earliest form of self-replicators and look to simpler forms of organic self-replicating molecules as precursors to cells.

So although Pasteur thought he had put finis to the idea that life could arise naturally, he was not necessarily correct. He did however show that the simplest forms of life he and his contemporaries knew of did not arise through spontaneous generation.

It will take a while to attempt an actual translation of the article. Perhaps, rmwilliams can check the English-language version of the text on fermentation and see if it includes the report on the Sorbonne Conference on spontaneous generation. If so, we can all have it on line in a language we understand.
 
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gluadys

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if it was purposed and taught as theory instead of fact![/b]

the best description seems to be that evolution is both a theory and a fact, the unfortunate collusion of using a single word to describe both a large and well evidenced theory and the same word to describe speciation and population's changing allele frequency over time. perhaps the distinction of microevolution and macro evolution would be useful. macroevolution is a theory, microevolution is a fact. the problem comes from how people misuse words in order to prove a point rather than to illuminate others.

Since, in scientific parlance macro-evolution = speciation, and speciation has been observed, macro-evolution is also a fact.

Common descent, beyond the level of species, could be described as a theory well supported by the evidence. In my experience, common descent is the aspect of evolution that creationists have the most problem with and which they often mis-identify as macro-evolution.
 
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Mallon

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Evolution is what I am against! not because it is theory! if it was purposed and taught as theory instead of fact!
Can you even substantiate this statement, I wonder?
The fact is that evolution is both theory AND fact. The change in allele frequencies through time is fact. The large scale accumulation of such changes to produce vastly new bauplans is theory -- and it is taught as such, to my knowledge. I'll concede the point if you can show that it is not being taught this way across America today.
And for what it's worth, I agree that the theoretical aspects of evolution should not be taught as fact. But this is a shortcoming of the education system, not the theory itself. Your beef is not with evolution, it is with your sad education system.
God proves to be the only explanation, how will you scientificaly meassure and repair the damage??

I imagine we might take the same steps we took when we disproved geocentrism.
So..all humanity is to blindly fallow your theory and conlusions.. nice...
Not at all. I never said that. But if evolution is ever overturned, it will be by a scientist with a biology degree on the wall, one foot in the lab, and another in the field. Not some exuberant fundie with a Bible in one hand and an AiG DVD in the other.
I do recall that most of our scientific achievements and discovery in history are by men with no degree!
See rmwilliamsll's spot-on response.
..if you dont feel comfortable having your theory critique'd by laymen..then keep it out of our public schools so I dont have to pay for it!!
You can critique evolution all you want. Just don't think your opinion is worth a dime in the face of overwhelming evidence. And don't think you can stuff your YEC interpretation of the Bible down the throats of our youth, either.
I think I will attempt to pray that God will help you instead!...
:wave:
Knock yerself out.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Since, in scientific parlance macro-evolution = speciation, and speciation has been observed, macro-evolution is also a fact.

Common descent, beyond the level of species, could be described as a theory well supported by the evidence. In my experience, common descent is the aspect of evolution that creationists have the most problem with and which they often mis-identify as macro-evolution.
i'll echo TG's comment, thank you for posting #53, i'll grab the fermentation book tomorrow from the library and look.

apparently the major issue is the continuity of humanity with the rest of living creatures. Like you say-the principle of common descent. but i am not sure that YECists realize that common descent is a higher level principle that does not have to be true in order for the TofE to hold together. For instance, if we discover that the genetics of deep sea vents-smokers demonstrate that they are the result of an entirely different abiogenesis and as a result form a completely separate kind of life, doesn't challenge the TofE.

Likewise, if God had created each of the Genesis kinds with a different genetic code mapping DNA codon triplets to tRNA-amino acid combinations, then those would disprove far more than just common descent but overturn the TofE itself making the miraculous creation of each kind in time necessary.

But common descent is not an assumption of the TofE but a very high level conclusion, it is furthermore not an essential principle in the TofE, although it is important. if we find life on Mars or silcon based life forms, it does not immediately and logically destroy the TofE, but rather make the base of it multiple instead of the current singular point.
 
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Xaero

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Likewise, if God had created each of the Genesis kinds with a different genetic code mapping DNA codon triplets to tRNA-amino acid combinations, then those would disprove far more than just common descent but overturn the TofE itself making the miraculous creation of each kind in time necessary.
But all genomes look like tinkering - showing the traces of evolution. Special creation does not fit well into this data.
The theory of common descent could be easily refuted by a single bone in a wrong strate, maybe human fossils together with dino bones. But there ain't any.

According to spontaneous generation, i also thought Pasteur was just adressing the belief that flys and other insects were spontaneously formed out of waste.
This claim was disproven by his experiments.
 
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Deamiter

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Thanks gluadys for the correction and clarification. I had the idea -- that what he disproved is that spontaneous generation is not occuring today, not that it EVER occurred -- without the important details.

Of course that's what I get for focusing on physics, but I do very much appreciate being corrected as I'll be able to avoid such an error in the future.
 
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withreason

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The theory of common descent could be easily refuted by a single bone in a wrong strate, maybe human fossils together with dino bones. But there ain't any.

actually... claims have been made about finding such evidence....along with.... the conspiracy... to cover up any evidence that would prove evolution as a fraud....this is one of latest hoaxes..right!..http://www.nmsr.org/Archive.html
 
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