• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Past.. Present.. Future.. ?

Status
Not open for further replies.

MrSnow

Senior Member
May 30, 2007
891
89
✟23,977.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Heb 2:8-9 (NKJV)
"You have put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone."

We KNOW that Christ is reigning and that all things are in subjection under His feet. It is just that we do not SEE that as being so as of yet. All we SEE is how Christ revealed Himself in His incarnation, "a little lower than the angels".
 
Upvote 0

Natman

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2004
918
60
71
Houston, Texas, USA
✟31,420.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
??? "spiritual resurrection", of souls??? What is that supposed to be?

Those that John is referring to are not "physically" resurrected, as in the resurrection that will occur on the last day at the judgement. They were sitting in a position of judgement with Christ at the time of the revelation and are likely the souls of some of the patriarchs and the apostles.

Those "dead" are those who did not participate in the First Resurrection: they are the unbelievers.

No. All will be judged, believer and unbeliever. The only difference is that the believer's transgressions are covered by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.
John 5:28-30
28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Rev 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 says that anyone who's name is not found in the book of life is thrown into the lake of fire. So what about those who's names ARE found in the Book of Life?

If all of the dead that are judged are non-believers as you ascert, then why even bother with the Book of Life? Why not just throw them all into the lake of fire?

Just read the chapter.Yes, it is the judgment of the quick.

Although the verses do not specifically mention the dead, you would have to take them in their exclusivity, ignoring other judgment statement by Jesus and the Apostles, such as the parable of the wheat and the tares, in order to separate the judgement from both the quick and the dead.
Acts 10:42
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

2 Timothy 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

1 Peter 4:5
Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
Well, at least I have good Scriptural reasons to suppose "hour" is not just 60 minutes, whereas I see no reason to suppose 1000 years are not 1000 years.

I didn't propose that "hour" was a literal 60 minutes. In fact, I an almost certain that it is anything but 60 minutes. It could be within the "twinkling of an eye" or it could take some extended period of time. It doesn't matter. Time at that point is likely irrelevant. The point that is being communicated is that it is the final series of events.

Even if they're not, we are NOT in that period now. Christ hasn't come yet.

Amillennialists ascert that we are indeed in that period. However we are not at the end of that period. And, if you do not take Matt 23, Mark 13 and Luke 21 out of context, you might see that Jesus has already "come", not physically, as in His final "coming", but in "clouds of judgement" against the City of Jerusalem, it's leaders and it's Temple, just as God had "come in clouds of judgement" over and over again in the Old Testament.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gwynedd1
Upvote 0

Natman

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2004
918
60
71
Houston, Texas, USA
✟31,420.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
To me, it's funny that you're listing an Amillennial sequence of events, with all of the events being future..

Amillennialism by its very definition implies that we are ALREADY in the thousand year reign of Christ, as it is described in Rev 20.. but you're listing all of these things as pertaining to the future.. rather than the present time..

Markea,

Amillennialism does indeed ascert that we are already within the "millennium" as you prefer to call it. However, the events listed are set to occur at the END of that period, not throughout it. As such, those events listed tha GW listed, Final coming, final judgment, resurrection, New cosmos, are as yet future events.

What you actually need to do is explain Rev 20:1-6 (using any other portion of scripture, of course) in a present tense.. as you did with the deception of the nations.. that's where you'll really see amillennialism fall apart..

Rev 20:1-4 begins in the past, likely at the ascention of Jesus to the right hand of the Father in 33AD. That would be the point at which the actions of Satan were most severely diminished and the point at which Jesus assumed His Kingdom reign from Heaven.

Those that are seated with Him are some of the patriarchs and Apostles that had physically died before the destruction of Jerusalem who God had promised would be there to judge with Him.
Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Then, in verses 6 through 15, he jumps to the END of the "millennium", or Jesus Heavenly reign, to the events of the "last day", including the momentary release and casting out of Satan, the resurection of the dead and transformation of the living, the judgement for all, the casting out of all evil. Next, in Chapter 21, he continues with the destruction of the Earth and sky and the creation of the NEW Earth and Heaven, and finally the descention of Jesus as the New Jerusalem, His Kingdom forever with us here on Earth.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.