Past.. Present.. Future.. ?

[Markea]

Markea, Amill is NOT based on Rev 20. It is based on the eschatology of the gospels and epistles, which teach that the resurrection and final judgment occur *at the final coming* and not after it by a thousand years. As I said before, all those who hold to Amill use the gospels and epistles for the truth about the final coming, final judgment and resurrection (which occur at the same time) and reject using Revelation to formulate doctrine, mostly due to its highly symbolic nature.

OK, so now you're simply adding to what you do not know..

from previous posts, it's evident that you don't know what the church of God actually is.. and now you're telling us that amillennialism is not based upon Rev 20..

Hey whatever.. it simply shows the hoops that amils are willing to jump through in order to justify their view..

 

[holdon]

Holdon, deal with the substance of that information.

Eh, you mean "disinformation".

What questions do you have?

 

[GW]

Hey Markea,

It's a FACT that the information of the gospels and epistles states that the final judgment, resurrection, and new cosmos occurs *at the final coming.* That is a fact, not an interpretation. Even honest millennialists will admit this.

 

[Markea]

Hey Markea,

Even honest millennialists will admit this.

And if they don't, they must be dishonest..?

Well.. IS there a pre-mil person here who believes that there will be no thousand year gap between the first resurrection, and the next..?

Perhaps this is why it's called the first resurrection..

 

[Markea]

So, there has not been one 'honest millennialist' who will agree with what GW refers to as the facts..

Oh well.. perhaps all millennialists are dishonest..? ?

 

[holdon]

Hey Markea,

It's a FACT that the information of the gospels and epistles states that the final judgment, resurrection, and new cosmos occurs *at the final coming.* That is a fact, not an interpretation. Even honest millennialists will admit this.

Please show us where you get this supposed "FACT" from?

What "final judgment, resurrection and new cosmos" and what "final coming" are you talking about????

 

[Markea]

Please show us where you get this supposed "FACT" from?

What "final judgment, resurrection and new cosmos" and what "final coming" are you talking about????

Really.. can you please answer this GW..?

Also.. where is all the support for amillennialism..? Evidently.. there are not many on this board who embrace it, because the silence and lack of support in this thread shows that to be the case..

 

[MrSnow]

Also.. where is all the support for amillennialism..? Evidently.. there are not many on this board who embrace it, because the silence and lack of support in this thread shows that to be the case..

That, or we are just not online until right now.

I see a lot of hard feelings in this thread. That's unfortunate.

I really don't think that either premil or amil is BASED on Rev 20, but rather use it as one passage among many.

I have one main reason why I interpret Rev 20 in an amil way, and that is the binding of Satan, which I believe had already happened by the time that Christ gave the Revelation.

In Matt 12 (and its counterparts in Mark and Luke) Jesus gives the illustration of the house divided against itself, that house being the house of Satan. He says in verse 29 "Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house." The reason that Christ and His apostles were able to wreak havoc on Satan's dominion is because Satan has been bound. And all this is BEFORE Revelation was written.

I believe that if you compare Scripture to Scripture in this case, you are left with Satan being bound, and thus Rev 20 NOT being about a future millennium, but about a present reality.

 

[Markea]

That, or we are just not online until right now.

I see a lot of hard feelings in this thread. That's unfortunate.

I really don't think that either premil or amil is BASED on Rev 20, but rather use it as one passage among many.

I have one main reason why I interpret Rev 20 in an amil way, and that is the binding of Satan, which I believe had already happened by the time that Christ gave the Revelation.

In Matt 12 (and its counterparts in Mark and Luke) Jesus gives the illustration of the house divided against itself, that house being the house of Satan. He says in verse 29 "Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house." The reason that Christ and His apostles were able to wreak havoc on Satan's dominion is because Satan has been bound. And all this is BEFORE Revelation was written.

I believe that if you compare Scripture to Scripture in this case, you are left with Satan being bound, and thus Rev 20 NOT being about a future millennium, but about a present reality.

Here's where many folks tend to completely ignore the context of Revelation 20, which describes satan being bound for a thousand years so that the NATIONS are NOT DECEIVED..

Do you really believe that there is no deception amongst the nations right now..?

Even today.. a Christian is called to put on the full armour of God so that they can STAND AGAINST the wiles of the DEVIL.. because we do not wrestle with flesh and blood, but rather against principalities and powers.. against the RULERS OF THE DARKNESS OF THIS WORLD..

For a non Christian.. the bible clearly states that satan takes men captive at his will.. that he is the god of this world who blinds the minds of those who believe not the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ..

But the nations are not deceived.. ? ? ?

How about the first ressurection.. how will you spiritualize that..?

 

[holdon]

I have one main reason why I interpret Rev 20 in an amil way, and that is the binding of Satan, which I believe had already happened by the time that Christ gave the Revelation.

In Matt 12 (and its counterparts in Mark and Luke) Jesus gives the illustration of the house divided against itself, that house being the house of Satan. He says in verse 29 "Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house." The reason that Christ and His apostles were able to wreak havoc on Satan's dominion is because Satan has been bound. And all this is BEFORE Revelation was written.

I believe that if you compare Scripture to Scripture in this case, you are left with Satan being bound, and thus Rev 20 NOT being about a future millennium, but about a present reality.

If you compare Scripture to Scripture, you see that Satan is still going around as a roaring lion in Peter's epistle.
That he is still misleading people in Paul's epistle.
That the believer is told to put on the armor to withstand the artifices of the devil in Paul's epistle.
That Satan hindered Paul in the spreading of the gospel in Paul's epistle.
That believers are told to resist him and would flee from them in James' epistle.

So, the conclusion must be that in the light of Scripture Satan is not bound yet. Nor is he then already thrown into the abyss, shut and sealed. (a 4 fold security that he will no longer deceive during the millenium).

 

[GW]

Markea:
Oh well.. perhaps all millennialists are dishonest..?

GW:
The Amillennial sequence of events--Final coming, final judgment, resurrection, New cosmos occur at same time--is the teaching found in the gospels and epistles. That is a fact that even the well-respected premillennialist scholar George Eldon Ladd fully admits: "I admit that the greatest difficulty to any premillennialism is the fact that most of the New Testament pictures the consummation as occurring at Jesus’ parousia."

Markea:
Do you really believe that there is no deception amongst the nations right now

GW:
The "nations" are the non-Jewish peoples, who were kept apart from the true faith of Abraham until the first century. At that time, the Christ offered the true faith to them (through the apostles) and the gentile peoples received it. This is what it means that satan was no longer able to deceive the nations. The faith went from being a provincial faith confined to Abrahamic tribes to being a faith among all the peoples of the world.

 

[MrSnow]

The "nations" are the non-Jewish peoples, who were kept apart from the true faith of Abraham until the first century. At that time, the Christ offered the true faith to them (through the apostles) and the gentile peoples received it. This is what it means that satan was no longer able to deceive the nations. The faith went from being a provincial faith confined to Abrahamic tribes to being a faith among all the peoples of the world.

To those who addressed me concerning my previous post...what he said.

 

[MrSnow]

If Jesus did not mean that Satan has been bound in Mt 12, then what did Jesus mean?

 

[holdon]

If Jesus did not mean that Satan has been bound in Mt 12, then what did Jesus mean?

I think Jesus meant that He was stronger than Satan and proving it by throwing out demons.
Jesus had proved to be stronger than Satan during the temptations in the desert. The Satan had fled from Him.

Now, in Mt 12, He was casting out demons and got accused that He was doing it "through Belzebub" that is Satan himself, as getting His power from him. He then says He would not have been able to free people from demons, if He were not stronger than Satan. So, the very fact that this was working, was a proof that He had bound the strong man, and so could spill his goods.

For those that put this binding of the strong man at the cross, rather than at the temptation in the desert, this explanation of Jesus will not work. Then indeed the question becomes by what powers He was casting out demons before the cross.

Nor has this picture of binding the strong man anything to do with Rev. 20:1-3. There it is not Christ, but "an angel from heaven" who grabs Satan, binds him, throws him into the abyss, shuts it and seals it, so that he no longer can deceive.
After Mt 12 some were still deceived and are even today...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

For those that put this binding of the strong man at the cross, rather than at the temptation in the desert, this explanation of Jesus will not work. Then indeed the question becomes by what powers He was casting out demons before the cross.

In the NC there were 2 Strong-ones opposing Jesus, Saul/Paul and their followers, the High-priesthood of Judea/Jerusalem and of course the Romans and their chiefs rulers.

Since the NC concerns building a Holy Priesthood on the order of Melchizedek, that leaves no room for both an OC Priesthood and NC Priesthood.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Hebrews 7:12 For being changed/translated/metatiqemenhV<3346> (5746) the Priesthood, out of necessity also, of Law a change/translation is becoming

Matthew 12:29 `Or how is one able to be into-coming/eiselqein<1525> (5629) into the House of the strong-one, and the goods of him to snatch-away/diarpasai <1283> (5658) , if ever no first he should be binding/dhsh <1210> (5661) the strong-one? And then his house he shall be snatching-away/diarpasei <1283> (5692). [Mark 3:27]

Reve 15:8 And is being filled-full the Sanctuary of smoke out of the glory of the God, and out of the power of Him. And no one was able to be into-coming/eiselqein<1525> (5629) into the Sanctuary until should be being consummated/finished the seven stripes/blows of the seven messengers.

 

[Natman]

Same here.. I guess the amils from this board are simply not confident in sharing their beliefs on the matter.. otherwise.. you'd think that they would..

So far only one person willing to defend the doctrine of amillennialism.. ? ? It looks like folks really don't believe in this stuff after all.. and rightly so..

Where is all the support for amillennialism..? Evidently.. there are not many on this board who embrace it, because the silence and lack of support in this thread shows that to be the case..

Markea, my brother, you are coming across as very arrogant. There have been several that have responded in support of amillennialism, including GW, Gwynedd1, jeffweeder, Jipsah and MrSnow.

Of course, you can now add myself. I had remained quite because I felt GW did an excellent job of quashing premillennialism and felt there was no need to add much more.

I agree with GW's ascertion that Rev 20 is not the basis for the amillennial position. However, it is used as one of the scriptures that disprove the premillennial scheme, particularly when the rest of scripture and particularly the Gospels and Epistles are taken into consideration.

The error comes when premillenialists attempt to literalize the single word "thousand", when the practice is hardly, possibly arguably never used in scripture. A cursory review of all of the uses of the word "thousand" in scripture would show that it is used to describe a large, non-specific number of something, particularly when used in reference to multiple thousands of something. Of the one hundred and fifty or so examples, I found, only a few cases that I could state with any measure of assurity that the word "thousand" might be a literal "thousand" of something, and those were all related to trading something for a "thousand" peices of money.

Genesis 20:16
To Sarah he said, "I am giving your brother a thousand shekels of silver. This is to cover the offense against you before all who are with you; you are completely vindicated."

2 Kings 15:19
Then Pul king of Assyria invaded the land, and Menahem gave him a thousand talents of silver to gain his support and strengthen his own hold on the kingdom.

1 Chronicles 19:6
When the Ammonites realized that they had become a stench in David's nostrils, Hanun and the Ammonites sent a thousand talents of silver to hire chariots and charioteers from Aram Naharaim, Aram Maacah and Zobah.

The rest referred to large and/or approximate numbers of something, as in a "thousand men". The word is also used hyperbolicly, as in, "May the LORD, the God of your fathers, increase you a thousand times." or "every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills". Does God increase exactly a thousand times? No, but He does increase us many times over at times. Does God only own the cattle on one-thousand hills? No. The point is that God owns the cattle on ALL the hills.

This is what I and most amillennialists believe is being communicated in Rev 20. Satan will be "bound" for a long, but limited amount of time.

Nor is Satan physically bound, however, because the Truth of scripture has been revealed by and through Jesus Christ, for those that accept the Truth, Jesus, as their Savior, Satan can no longer decieve them. He can only decieve those that refuse the Truth.

What is the FIRST RESURRECTION..?

I know I have been over this with you before.

The first resurrection is a spiritual resurrection which occurs when we place our faith in Jesus. We go from spiritual death to spiritual life.

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

Eph 2:4-5
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.
​

The first death is the phyical death of our bodies.

The second resurrection is the physical resurrection that will occur just prior to the final judgement.

John 5:28-29
"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
​

The second death is the spiritual death that those that a not in Christ will experience at the final judgement. The second death is actually eternal life separated from the grace of God.

John 8:51
I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
​

Obviously this is spiritual because all of those that had kept Jesus' word that have alread phyically died. If it were physical, that would make Jesus out to be a liar.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
​

In summary:

First Resurrection - Spiritual
First Death - Physical
Second Resurrection - Physicial
Second Death - Spiritual

Now this is funny.. you don't understand what the church of God is

Okay? What is the church of God?

 

[Natman]

Some dead will be made alive before others (Rev 20:5). From that passage alone we can see that their judgment is indeed at different times. (Rev 20:12).

Rev 20:4-5I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
​

Rev 20:4-5 only talks about resurrection. It does not mention judgement. Further, it is talking of a "spiritual resurrection", not a physical resurrection as John makes it perfectly clear that he sees only the "souls" of those who had been beheaded.

Since Jesus reigns in His kingdom NOW, those few mentioned here are also reigning along side Him NOW.

2 Tim 4:1 does not say that all are judged as the same time.

Neither does it say they are not. However, other verses indicate that all are judged at the same time.

Rev 20:12-13And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
​

This verse simply says "the dead" were judged. It does not say "some of the dead" or "the rest of the dead".

Nor does Mt 25:31-46 say anything about judging the dead....

Are you kidding??? Have you read those verses. saparating the sheep (a metaphor for those that follow the Lord) from the goats. It concludes with...
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
That sounds like judgement language to me.

You cite Jn 5:27-29 and I am getting used to your game because again you leave conveniently out vs 25:

"that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that have heard shall live."

This verse is of course an allusion to the preaching of the gospel whereby people receive eternal life. This "hour" is lasting almost 2000 yrs already. Therefore the "hour" of vs 28 is not just 60 minutes. It is a period characterized by a thing: see 5:35 "the hour of John the baptis", clearly much longer than 60 minutes....

This made me laugh out loud. You are the one that literalizes the word "thousand", but now you want to alegorize the word "hour" so that it fits your eschatological model???

Acts 24:15 says nothing about the resurrections happening at the same time.

Again, nor does it not.

 

[holdon]

Rev 20:4-5 only talks about resurrection. It does not mention judgement. Further, it is talking of a "spiritual resurrection", not a physical resurrection as John makes it perfectly clear that he sees only the "souls" of those who had been beheaded.

??? "spiritual resurrection", of souls??? What is that supposed to be?

Neither does it say they are not. However, other verses indicate that all are judged at the same time.

Rev 20:12-13And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.​

This verse simply says "the dead" were judged. It does not say "some of the dead" or "the rest of the dead".

Those "dead" are those who did not participate in the First Resurrection: they are the unbelievers. Just read the chapter.

Are you kidding??? Have you read those verses. saparating the sheep (a metaphor for those that follow the Lord) from the goats. It concludes with...
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
That sounds like judgement language to me.

Yes, it is the judgment of the quick.

This made me laugh out loud. You are the one that literalizes the word "thousand", but now you want to alegorize the word "hour" so that it fits your eschatological model???

Well, at least I have good Scriptural reasons to suppose "hour" is not just 60 minutes, whereas I see no reason to suppose 1000 years are not 1000 years. Even if they're not, we are NOT in that period now. Christ hasn't come yet.

 

[Markea]

The Amillennial sequence of events--Final coming, final judgment, resurrection, New cosmos occur at same time--is the teaching found in the gospels and epistles.

To me, it's funny that you're listing an Amillennial sequence of events, with all of the events being future..

Amillennialism by its very definition implies that we are ALREADY in the thousand year reign of Christ, as it is described in Rev 20.. but you're listing all of these things as pertaining to the future.. rather than the present time..

What you actually need to do is explain Rev 20:1-6 (using any other portion of scripture, of course) in a present tense.. as you did with the deception of the nations.. that's where you'll really see amillennialism fall apart..

 

[Markea]

Do you really believe that there is no deception amongst the nations right now..?

The "nations" are the non-Jewish peoples, who were kept apart from the true faith of Abraham until the first century. At that time, the Christ offered the true faith to them (through the apostles) and the gentile peoples received it. This is what it means that satan was no longer able to deceive the nations. The faith went from being a provincial faith confined to Abrahamic tribes to being a faith among all the peoples of the world.

First, allow me to point out the obvious.. you are placing Revelation 20 into a 'past, and present tense' time frame.. because you are associating satan being bound and sealed in an abyss; so that he cannot deceive the nations, with something that actually took place in the first century..

SO.. let's go along with your commentary here.. Tell us what happens at the end of the thousand years when satan is loosed from his prison.. Will the nations then be deceived again..? What will it mean when he gathers together the nations and then encompasses the camp of the saints.. as it is described here..

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.