Past.. Present.. Future.. ?

[Markea]

The Revelation (or unveiling) of Jesus Christ provides the basic foundation for two of the most distinct and opposing doctrines within the study of Eschatology.. amillennialism, and pre millennialism... and yet, the amazing thing is that both of these beliefs are based upon the exact same verses of scripture, within the 20th chapter of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

The primary difference between these two distinct camps {amillennialists and pre millennialists}.. is their interpretation of these verses of scripture, in Rev 20..

Amillennialists must read Rev 20:1-6 in a spiritualized way, which affords itself to fit into the context, by attributing the verses to things which are already present.. ie.. events which are happening during this present time, or age.. So iow.. amillennialists view these verses as pertaining to this present time..

Pre-millennialists read Rev 20:1-6 in a much more literal way, which simply affords the text to say what it says.. but with respect to a future time, which the book of Revelation refers to as.. the things which shall be hereafter..

So. if you tend to read these verses and spiritualize them into existing events of today.. then you're most like an amillennialist.. if you read these verses in a much more literal fashion.. then you're more like a pre millennialist..

It is amazing that two such vastly different doctrines can emerge from the very same portion of the word of God.. which lives and endures for ever.

Here's the text..

Revelation 20:1-6

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

I love how Peter refers to all of this in a future tense.. in his first epistle..

[bible]1 Peter 1:13[/bible]

What a Day that will be.. at the revelation of Jesus Christ.. in the Day of Jesus Christ.. who is the King of kings and Lord of lords..

[bible]Revelation 11:15[/bible]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Doesn't that happen after the "2 witnesses" are killed?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 23:34 `Because of this, lo!, I am Commissioning toward ye Prophets and Wisemen and Scribes, out of Them Ye shall be Killing/apokteneite <615> (5692) and ye shall be Crucifying/staurwsete <4717>(5692),...............

Matt 24:9 then they shall be delivering ye up into tribulation, and They shall be Killing/apoktenousin <615> (5692) Ye, and ye shall be being hated by all of the nation thru/because-of the Name of Me;

Reve 11:7 `And whenever they should be finishing/teleswsin <5055> (5661) the testimony/witness of them, the wild-beast, the one ascending out of the Abyss, shall be doing with them, battle, and shall be conquering them, and shall be Killing/apoktenei <615> (5692) Them

 

[Maranatha27]

Revelation 20:1-6 is not the only passage that an amilennierian has to spiritualize as you are probably well aware. The millennium is pictured all throughout the Old Testament:

Isa. 11:6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
[7] And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
[8] And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
[9] They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

When Christ returns the prophet pictures, even the animal kingdom at rest. This no doubt picture the 1000 year reign of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Markea]

Revelation 20:1-6 is not the only passage that an amilennierian has to spiritualize as you are probably well aware. The millennium is pictured all throughout the Old Testament:

Isa. 11:6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
[7] And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
[8] And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
[9] They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

When Christ returns the prophet pictures, even the animal kingdom at rest. This no doubt picture the 1000 year reign of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes, there are many other portions of scripture which must be spiritualized away in order for amillennialism to stand.. although any list would be too exhaustive to list in a thread like this.. thanks for sharing this one..

I would simply like people to see and understand that two of the most opposing doctrines within Christendom are basically derived from the same portion of scripture.

 

[Markea]

The thing that puzzles me is this.. How could a person read the text of Rev 20:1-6 and then somehow make it all fit into a present tense scenario.. ? ?

I have read that it was Augustine who did this at first.. although I'm not sure about that..

So where did amillennialism originate..? Does anyone know.. ?

 

[Markea]

Same here.. I guess the amils from this board are simply not confident in sharing their beliefs on the matter.. otherwise.. you'd think that they would..

 

[gwynedd1]

Revelation 20:1-6 is not the only passage that an amilennierian has to spiritualize as you are probably well aware. The millennium is pictured all throughout the Old Testament:

Isa. 11:6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
[7] And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
[8] And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
[9] They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

When Christ returns the prophet pictures, even the animal kingdom at rest. This no doubt picture the 1000 year reign of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hello Maranatha27,


This is a classic example of why one cannot read prophesy literally. I don't think this is a literal expression of the disciples scattering when Jesus was brought before the high priest.

Zechariah 13

7&#8216;Awake, O sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is my associate,&#8217;
says the Lord of hosts.
Strike the shepherd, that the sheep may be scattered;
I will turn my hand against the little ones.

Who heard the voice and was it really Rachel?

Matthew 2

17Then was fulfilled what had been spoken through the prophet Jeremiah:
18&#8216;A voice was heard in Ramah,
wailing and loud lamentation,
Rachel weeping for her children;
she refused to be consoled, because they are no more.&#8217;

Why is Isaiah 11 different?


There are 3 choices.

1# The Bible contains little imagery but is literal, however time is not. In this case literalism is strongly biased towards futurism because we are not seeing these kinds of things being fulfilled as of now.


#2 Time is literal and the Bible expresses things in poetic imagery in many passages.


#3 The Bible is wrong. This would be the case if one where to take both aspects literally.


My choice is for #2 because I can find examples, as I posted above, that the bible does use poetic imagery. I find few examples that I can prove with scripture that show time being distorted Those cases that are brought up have simple explanations.



What interpretation is this given? What does this describe?

Ezekiel 37

7 So I prophesied as I had been commanded; and as I prophesied, suddenly there was a noise, a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8I looked, and there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them; but there was no breath in them. 9Then he said to me, &#8216;Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, mortal, and say to the breath:* Thus says the Lord God: Come from the four winds, O breath,* and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.&#8217; 10I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood on their feet, a vast multitude.

 

[gwynedd1]

The thing that puzzles me is this.. How could a person read the text of Rev 20:1-6 and then somehow make it all fit into a present tense scenario.. ? ?

I have read that it was Augustine who did this at first.. although I'm not sure about that..

So where did amillennialism originate..? Does anyone know.. ?

Yes, Augustine is probably the best example of amil.

 

[GW]

Okay, I'm only going to post some info on this for everyone's general interest (and then I'm out).

THE ORIGINS OF AMILLENNIALISM IN SCRIPTURE

Amill is based on the fact that the thousand years cannot be found in either the gospels or epistles. That is, the eschatology of the gospels and epistles explicitly teaches that Christ's final coming is to issue the resurrection and final judgment, after which there is a new cosmos. That is the plain teaching of the gospels and epistles, in every passage that discusses this. The Church's united leaders have always seen this as the apostles' teaching and have never tried to use Revelation for creating doctrines, due to the book's highly symbolic nature. So, the eschatological information provided in the gospels and epistles is the origin of Amillennialism. Here's the information of the gospels and epistles that makes a literal thousand years impossible:

(1) Premillennialists divide the judgment of the living and dead into multiple events separated by a time period of one thousand years. Scripture, in contrast, says that Christ's judgment of the living and the dead occurs "at his coming" (2 Tim 4:1; Matt 25:31-46). Thus, premillennialism is false.

(2) Premillennialists divide the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust into multiple events separated by a time period of one thousand years. Scripture, in contrast, says that the resurrection of the dead occurs at his coming (1 Cor 15:22-23) and pertains to both the just and unjust together (John 5:27-29, Acts 24:15, Matt 25:31-46, Daniel 12:1-2). Thus, premillennialism is false.

(3) Premillennialists claim that the wicked are not judged and raised simultaneously with the righteous on "the last day." Scripture, in contrast, says that it is on "the last day" that Jesus both resurrects and judges the wicked (Jn 12:48; Jn 6:44,54). Thus, premillennialism is false.

(4) Premillennialists claim that the "Thief in the Night" (Matt 24:43) speaks of some "rapture away of christians" that takes place seven years prior to the Day of the Lord/coming of Christ; they also claim that the "new heavens and earth" comes one thousand years after that. St. Paul, in contrast, says the "Thief in the Night" event is the Day of the Lord (1 Thess 5:2-5). Interestingly, St. Peter teaches that this same "Day of the Lord/Thief in the Night" event is simultaneous with the "passing of heavens and Earth" (2 Peter 3:10). Therefore we see that the "Thief in the Night," the "Day of the Lord," and "the passing of heavens and earth" are simultaneous, leaving no room for a literal thousand years in between the events. Finally, we note that Jesus says the "Thief in the Night" was even of some application to the first-century church (Rev 3:2-3). No literal thousand years can be made to fit anywhere. The New Heavens/Earth and Second Coming are clearly simultaneous. Thus, premillennialism is false.

(5) Premillennialists claim that Christ's kingdom has been postponed and will begin at some future millennium. Scripture, in contrast, says that Christ's kingdom was established during his generation (Mark 1:14-15; Rev 1:5-6,9) and isn't limited to a thousand years. Christ's Kingdom is eternal (Isa 9:6-7), and Christ has been the King of Kings for twenty centuries now, as the only Sovereign of Heaven and Earth (Matt 28:18-19/Rev 1:5-6/1 Tim 6:15/1 Pet 3:22). We are not waiting for Christ to reign. He reigns, and the increase of his government has no end. Thus, premillennialism is false.
​

Premillennialists wrongly divide key events into many scattered events spread out over a long period of a thousand years, with some parts happening at some "rapture," some happening at the second coming, and some happening after the completion of a literal thousand years. This scheme/sequence clearly contradicts the gospels and epistles and was officially rejected as error by the whole early Church at the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople.

 

[GW]

ORIGINS OF PREMILLENNIALISM

Everyone knows that the origin of premil is to literalize Rev 20:1-6 to the point that the resulting sequence of events ends up contradicting the information given in the gospels and epistles. This pits Rev 20:1-6 vs. the gospels and epistles, and premillennialists side with the Rev 20:1-6 passage as their sole scriptural basis. The tendency to interpret eschatology in this way, however, has its roots in a few shady judaizers of the first and second centuries. Here is how it all unfolded:



EARLY HISTORY OF PREMILLENNIAL TEACHING

The Millennium doctrine started in an ungodly heretic by the name of Cerinthus, who lived in the first century. It is true that the Jews generally believed that the Messiah would establish a literal or earthly kingdom. And even some of them believed that Messiah's reign would last a thousand years. We here give an extract from Neander's History of Christian Dogmas, Vol. 1, Page 248.

"The idea of a Millennial reign proceeded from Judaism; for among the Jews the representation was current that the Messiah would reign a thousand years upon earth. . . . Such products of Jewish imagination passed over into Christianity."

As before stated, Cerinthus was the first to attempt to introduce this doctrine under Christianity. Let history speak. In Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History, Book III, Chapter 28, is preserved a fragment from the writings of Caius, who lived about the close of the second century, which gives us the following account of Cerinthus's heresy:

"But Cerinthus, too, through revelations written, as he would have us believe, by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things, which he pretends were shown him by angels; alleging that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ is to be on earth, and that the flesh dwelling in Jerusalem is again to be subject to desires and pleasures. And being an enemy to the scriptures of God, wishing to deceive men, he says that there is to be space of a thousand years for marriage festivities." "One of the doctrines he taught was, that Christ would have an earthly kingdom."

This is the true origin of the Millennium theory. The reader will observe how lightly our author speaks of Cerinthus's idea of the kingdom of Christ being set up on earth after the resurrection. He says this doctrine was

"something which he [Cerinthus] pretends was shown to him by angels."

Caius must therefore have believed the orthodox teachings of the scriptures, that Christ's kingdom was set up at his first coming. Observe also that Caius calls Cerinthus "an enemy to the scriptures of God," and one who was "wishing to deceive men." This language he uses with special reference to the one thousand years Cerinthus claimed would be spent in sensuality. Notice also that Cerinthus believed in an earthly kingdom.

Cerinthus lived in the days of the apostle John. We will now call your attention to the attitude of the beloved apostle toward this Millennial teacher.

Irenaeus, who was born about 120 A. D. and was acquainted with Polycarp, the disciple of John,

[Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., V. 24], states that while John was at Ephesus, he entered a bath to wash and found that Cerinthus was within, and refused to bathe in the same bath house, but left the building, and exhorted those with him to do the same, saying, "Let us flee, lest the bath fall in, as long as Cerinthus, that enemy of the truth, is within."&#8212;Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., III. 28.

Let this be a rebuke to modern Millennial advocates. They claim their doctrine is well founded in the Apocalypse of John. But John called the founder of their theory "that enemy of the truth."

"Cerinthus required his followers to worship the supreme God.... He promised them a resurrection of their bodies, which would be succeeded by exquisite delights in the Millenary reign of Christ.... For Cerinthus supposed that Christ would hereafter return . . . and would reign with his followers a thousand years in Palestine."&#8212;."&#8212; Mosheim's Eccl. Hist., Page 50.

"Cerinthus required his followers to retain part of the Mosaical law, but to regulate their lives by the example of Christ: and taught that after the resurrection Christ would reign upon earth, with his faithful disciples, a thousand years, which would be spent in the highest sensual indulgences.

This mixture of Judaism and Oriental philosophy was calculated to make many converts, and this sect soon became very numerous. They admitted a part of St. Matthew's Gospel but rejected the rest, and held the epistles of St. Paul in great abhorrence."&#8212;Gregory and Ruter's Church History., Page 30.

"Even though the floods of the nations and the vain superstitions of heretics should revolt against their true faith, they are overcome, and shall be dissolved as the foam, because Christ is the rock by which, and on which, the church is founded. And thus it is overcome by no [16] traces of maddened men. Therefore they are not to be heard who assure themselves that there is to be an earthly reign of a thousand years; who think, that is to say, with the heretic Cerinthus. For the kingdom of Christ is now eternal in his saints."

&#8212;From a commentary on the Apocalypse, by Victorinus, Ante-Nicene Fathers.

Thank God for the united testimony of history. Observe, dear reader, how closely the modern Millennium teachers cling to the doctrines of their founder. Cerinthus taught that "Christ will have an earthly kingdom." "After the resurrection the kingdom of Christ is to be on earth."

"The resurrection would be followed by exquisite delights in the Millenary reign of Christ."

" That Christ would hereafter return, and would reign with his followers a thousand years in Palestine."

The only difference is that his modern followers have dropped the idea of sensuality. But how did the early church regard the doctrine of Cerinthus ? The apostle John called Cerinthus "that enemy of the truth." They taught that

"they are not to be heard who assure themselves that there is to be an earthly reign of a thousand years."

What was the doctrine of the early church according to history?

"Christ is the rock on which, and by which the church is founded."

"The kingdom of Christ is now eternal in his saints."

"It was the universal feeling among primitive Christians that they were living in the last period of the world's history."&#8212;Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. VIII.. Page 534.

The reason they believed this was because the New Testament was their faith, and this is the doctrine of the New Testament throughout. No wonder Cerinthus and his followers

"rejected part of St. Matthew's Gospel, and held the epistles of Paul in great abhorrence."

Just so do modern Millennium teachers dwell very little in the plain Gospels and Epistles to prove their doctrines, but speculate in prophecy and revelation.

Having seen that Cerinthus and his false doctrine were rejected by God's church we will now come to its next chief advocate, Papias, who lived in the first half of the second century.

Eusebius, under the heading "The Writings of Papias," says of him:

"The same historian also gives other accounts, which he says he adds as received by him from unwritten tradition, likewise some strange parables of our Lord, and of his doctrine, and some other matters rather too fabulous. In these he says there would be a certain Millennium after the resurrection, and that there would be a corporeal reign of Christ on this very earth; which things he appears to have imagined, as if they were authorized by the apostolic narrations, not understanding correctly those matters which they propounded mystically in their representations. For he was very limited in his comprehension, as is evident from his discourses."&#8212; Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., Book m, Chap. 39, Page 115.

Historians generally tell us that Papias was a very zealous advocate of this imaginary reign of Christ on earth.

"The first distinguished opponent of this doctrine was Origen, who attacked it with great earnestness and ingenuity, and seems, in spite of some opposition to have thrown it into general discredit."&#8212;Wadington's History, Page 56.

"This obscure doctrine was probably known to but very few except the Fathers of the church, and is very sparingly mentioned by them during the first two centuries; and there is reason to believe that it scarcely attained much notoriety even among the learned Christians, until it was made a matter of controversy by Origen, and then rejected by the great majority. In fact we find Origen himself asserting that it was confined to those of the simpler sort."&#8212;Wadington's History, Page 56.

Next among the advocates of this doctrine was Nepos, a bishop in Egypt. He advocated the doctrine about A. D. 255. We here insert the following from Eusebius's History, Book VII, Chapter 23, under the heading "Nepos, and His Schism."

"He taught that the promises given to holy men in the scriptures should be understood more as the Jews understood them, and supposed that there would be a certain Millennium of sensual luxury on this earth: thinking, therefore, that he could establish his own opinion by the Revelation of John . . . He (Nepos) asserts that there will be an earthly reign of Christ."

"Though Millennialism had [18] been suppressed by the early church, it was nevertheless from time to time revived by heretical sects."&#8212;Dr. Schaff's Hlstory, Page 299.

"Nowhere in the discourses of Jesus is there a hint of a limited duration of the Messianic kingdom. The apostolic epistles are equally free from any trace of Chiliasm."&#8212;Encyclopedia Brittanica&#8212;Articles on Millennium.

To sum up the uniform voice of history, the theory of a literal kingdom and reign on the earth was gathered from Jewish fabulous "apocalypse," "unwritten tradition," "carnal misapprehensions," "pretended visions," "suppositions," and "superstitious imaginations."

The vain worldly expectation that the Messiah would establish a literal kingdom caused the Jews to reject him, and his spiritual kingdom. They only wanted an earthly kingdom; hence rejected and crucified the Son of God. As soon as the church began to apostatize, and lost the glory of his spiritual kingdom, vain ambitions awakened the old Jewish desire for a literal kingdom.

Source: H. M. Riggle, "History of the Millennium," The Kingdom of God, 1899.

 

[holdon]

(1) Premillennialists divide the judgment of the living and dead into multiple events separated by a time period of one thousand years. Scripture, in contrast, says that Christ's judgment of the living and the dead occurs "at his coming" (2 Tim 4:1; Matt 25:31-46). Thus, premillennialism is false.

Some dead will be made alive before others (Rev 20:5). From that passage alone we can see that their judgment is indeed at different times. (Rev 20:12). 2 Tim 4:1 does not say that all are judged as the same time. Nor does Mt 25:31-46 say anything about judging the dead....

(2) Premillennialists divide the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust into multiple events separated by a time period of one thousand years. Scripture, in contrast, says that the resurrection of the dead occurs at his coming (1 Cor 15:22-23) and pertains to both the just and unjust together (John 5:27-29, Acts 24:15, Matt 25:31-46, Daniel 12:1-2). Thus, premillennialism is false.​

How can you cite 1 Cor 15:22-23 and still say all the resurrections happen at the same time??? When it says clearly in vs 24, 25, 26: "each in his own rank: Christ, then those at His coming, then at the end when He delivers up the kingdom", so we have at least 3 instances: 1. Christ, 2. Those at His coming, 3. Those at the end: unbelievers standing before the great white throne and hades thrown into the lake of fire. You cite Jn 5:27-29 and I am getting used to your game because again you leave conveniently out vs 25:​

"that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that have heard shall live."​

This verse is of course an allusion to the preaching of the gospel whereby people receive eternal life. This "hour" is lasting almost 2000 yrs already. Therefore the "hour" of vs 28 is not just 60 minutes. It is a period characterized by a thing: see 5:35 "the hour of John the baptis", clearly much longer than 60 minutes....​

Acts 24:15 says nothing about the resurrections happening at the same time.​

Mt 25 we already discussed.​

Dan. 12:1,2 would get you into trouble, because it would mean resurrection or all before the millenium. The text pertains however to the figurative resurrection of Israel, like Ezek 37 and Isaiah 26.​

(3) Premillennialists claim that the wicked are not judged and raised simultaneously with the righteous on "the last day." Scripture, in contrast, says that it is on "the last day" that Jesus both resurrects and judges the wicked (Jn 12:48; Jn 6:44,54). Thus, premillennialism is false.​

The last day again doesn't mean a literal day of 24 hours. See above.​

(4) Premillennialists claim that the "Thief in the Night" (Matt 24:43) speaks of some "rapture away of christians" that takes place seven years prior to the Day of the Lord/coming of Christ; they also claim that the "new heavens and earth" comes one thousand years after that. St. Paul, in contrast, says the "Thief in the Night" event is the Day of the Lord (1 Thess 5:2-5). Interestingly, St. Peter teaches that this same "Day of the Lord/Thief in the Night" event is simultaneous with the "passing of heavens and Earth" (2 Peter 3:10). Therefore we see that the "Thief in the Night," the "Day of the Lord," and "the passing of heavens and earth" are simultaneous, leaving no room for a literal thousand years in between the events. Finally, we note that Jesus says the "Thief in the Night" was even of some application to the first-century church (Rev 3:2-3). No literal thousand years can be made to fit anywhere. The New Heavens/Earth and Second Coming are clearly simultaneous. Thus, premillennialism is false.​

Mt 24 does not speak about the Rapture at all. The "thief of the night" theme is for those that don't expect Him....​

(5) Premillennialists claim that Christ's kingdom has been postponed and will begin at some future millennium. Scripture, in contrast, says that Christ's kingdom was established during his generation (Mark 1:14-15; Rev 1:5-6,9) and isn't limited to a thousand years. Christ's Kingdom is eternal (Isa 9:6-7), and Christ has been the King of Kings for twenty centuries now, as the only Sovereign of Heaven and Earth (Matt 28:18-19/Rev 1:5-6/1 Tim 6:15/1 Pet 3:22). We are not waiting for Christ to reign. He reigns, and the increase of his government has no end. Thus, premillennialism is false.​

After a 1000 years Christ, the Son of Man, gives up the kingdom to His Father. Compare 1 Cor 15:26 with Rev 20:14. From then on He reigns as God eternally.​

 

[jeffweeder]

So where did amillennialism originate..? Does anyone know.. ?

For me it originated with my reading the scriptures and coming to that view.
I could be wrong about it, but i honestly get the idea of how it can be now.

In Rev 7 is the time when God wipes tears away- see rev 21.

I note that the Elder tells John that the crowd have just come out of the GT, and are before the lord for that reason, and its the time of the GWT, as this is when God makes his tabernacle and wipes tears away;

REV 7

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
16 "They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat;
17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."

REV 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
6 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
7 "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

so we go from GT to the GWT.

Peter seems to see it this way as well in 2 pet 3.

They are looking forward to the day of God-The promise of the coming of the Lord-----In which the heavens will disappear with a roar and the earth will melt in the intense heat.

This also happens at the GWT--The earth and the heavens flee away as no place is found for it, and he sees a new H/E.

Peter emphasises more by saying;

But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

Peter sees no 1000 years mill bliss, he is looking to the coming of Christ--the promise of his coming---and going straight to the home of righteousness-----which is after the millenium in Rev.

In Rev 7, the elder says they have come out of GT and now stand before the throne, which is the great white one.
If the 1000years were literal, wouldnt he have said that the crowd would have come out of the millenium? as the GWT is after the mill in rev.

That is just one reason, i have another one also......later ..maybe.

 

[Markea]

For me it originated with my reading the scriptures and coming to that view.
I could be wrong about it, but i honestly get the idea of how it can be now.

Thanks for sharing your own thoughts on the matter Jeff.. although what about Rev 20:1-6.. you didn't comment on those verses.

Do you belief that satan is bound and unable to deceive the nations at this present time.. ?

Who are the ones which were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus, and for not worshipping the beast or his image..?

When it says that these lived and reigned WITH CHRIST, what does that mean to you..? What is the FIRST RESURRECTION..?

so we go from GT to the GWT.

Peter seems to see it this way as well in 2 pet 3.

They are looking forward to the day of God-The promise of the coming of the Lord-----In which the heavens will disappear with a roar and the earth will melt in the intense heat.

This also happens at the GWT--The earth and the heavens flee away as no place is found for it, and he sees a new H/E.

Not too many folks see this point which you're making and it is a good one. Peter also writes that there is ONE THING which he does NOT want you and I to be ignorant of.. and it is that a DAY WITH THE LORD is as a thousand years and a thousand years are as one DAY..

This is the DAY of CHRIST.. which we know is forthcoming.. because while Christ is building His church, He will finish that good work which HE began in each one, even until the DAY of Jesus Christ..

But, to your point.. the heavens and the earth flee away AFTER the thousand years are ended.. because that is when fire comes down out of heaven from God..

Although again.. it's a good point.. many seem to miss this one.. BUT.. don't be ignorant of the ONE THING which Peter does NOT want you to be ignorant of..

 

[Markea]

So far only one person willing to defend the doctrine of amillennialism.. ? ? It looks like folks really don't believe in this stuff after all.. and rightly so..

 

[GW]

My two posts on the opening page of this thread demolish premil, which is based on an incorrect literalization of one single passage of scripture. Any view based on a single passage of scripture found in a highly symbolic text hardly needs to be addressed. Premill is simply not a serious teaching, and the constant stream of erroneous predictions and cults that flow from it prove to all reasonable people that premillennialism is against Christ and the sound truth of His gospel.

 

[Markea]

My two posts on the opening page of this thread demolish premil, which is based on an incorrect literalization of one single passage of scripture.

Now this is funny.. you don't understand what the church of God is, and you're trying to tell us that your copy and paste actions have demolished pre-mil..

Any view based on a single passage of scripture found in a highly symbolic text hardly needs to be addressed. Premill is simply not a serious teaching, and the constant stream of erroneous predictions and cults that flow from it prove to all reasonable people that premillennialism is against Christ and the sound truth of His gospel.

Well, as pointed out GW.. amillennialism is based upon the EXACT SAME scripture that pre-mil is based upon.. AND.. if what you write is true... then why haven't you shown us what Matt 25:31 is all about..? I'll give you a hint.. because you can't.. and neither can Notrash.. he says it's past, but can't tell us when.. such is the nonsense of preterism.

 

[holdon]

My two posts on the opening page of this thread demolish premil, which is based on an incorrect literalization of one single passage of scripture.

Those two posts were just entire reproductions from preteristvision.org without you even citing the reference.

And I refuted a few of those allegations already.

 

[Jipsah]

Now this is funny.

Perhaps. It's also true.

you don't understand what the church of God is,

Premillennialists only?

Well, as pointed out GW.. amillennialism is based upon the EXACT SAME scripture that pre-mil is based upon.

Which is to say that you didn't read what he posted.

why haven't you shown us what Matt 25:31 is all about..? [/quote[ It means what it says, but unfortunately it doesn't really help your position at all.

 

[Markea]

Perhaps. It's also true.

You're certainly entitled to embrace that Jip.

Premillennialists only?

Typical remark which is way off.. but hey.. keep trying.

Which is to say that you didn't read what he posted.

I have read what GW posted...although he tends to lose quite a bit of credibility when he demonstrates that he doesn't understand what the church of God actually is.. but at least he is willing to say..

YOU on the other hand, haven't said much at all, except to butt in on other people's comments.. I guess it suits you nicely though..

 

[GW]

Holdon, deal with the substance of that information.

Markea, Amill is NOT based on Rev 20. It is based on the eschatology of the gospels and epistles, which teach that the resurrection and final judgment and new cosmos occur *at the final coming,* not after it by a thousand years. As I said before, all those who hold to Amill use the gospels and epistles for the truth about the final coming, final judgment and resurrection (which occur at the same time) and reject using Revelation to formulate doctrine, mostly due to its highly symbolic nature. One cannot find a "millennium" anywhere in the gospels or epistles or anywhere else in scripture (aside from Rev 20:1-6)