Passover

[Meowzltov]

In Matthew 23:23 Jesus endorsed the rabbinic tradition of tithing herbs, but to subordinate it to the weightier commandments.

From the Talmud, Rosh Ha Shanah 1a:

"And for herbs." To this a Boraitha adds "tithes and vows." Let us see. What does he mean by "herbs"? The tithe of herbs. But are not these included with other "tithes"? (Nay, for the tithe of herbs) is a rabbinical institution, while the others are biblical. If so, should he not teach the biblical commandment first? (This is no question), because it was pleasing to him (to have discovered that, although the tithe of herbs is only a rabbinical institution, yet it should have a special New Year to prevent the confusion of tithes from year to year) he, therefore, gives it precedence. And the Tana of our Mishna teaches us the rabbinical institution (viz., the New Year for herbs), leaving us to infer that if that must be observed, so much the more must the biblical law be followed.

The tithing of herbs is from the Rabbins. - Mishnah, Maaseroth 1:1

Thanks! Excellent Post. I often cite Matthew 23:23, because Jesus is essentially saying, first observe the Torah, then do the Oral Torah as well! But you have included this wonderful quote from the Talmud -- something I can never aspire to do.
Shalom.

 

[Meowzltov]

It was OK with Yeshua as long as they taught what Moses taught. That is what it means to sit in Moses' seat. When they taught traditions that caused them to break what Moses taught, he rebuked them for it.

Can you give me an example of Oral Torah where it BREAKS Torah? Something that Jesus addressed in the Gospels?

 

[Meowzltov]

Bull. Rabbinic exaltation. The fact that Yeshua referred to judgment, mercy, and faith as weightier matters of the law shows that tithing herbs is a lighter matter of the law which should not be left undone.

There is principle, and there is application. Principle IS weightier than application. Believe it or not, Yeshua was not the only Rabbi to understand this.

 

[Meowzltov]

Deuteronomy 14:22 You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. 23 And before the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always

This is a generalization (first bold) followed by the particular (second bold.) The particular limits the generalization. This is known as k'lal u'ferat, (from the general to the specific.) It is a form of expression in Jewish deliberation.

Kelal uferat (The general and the particular)

A general principle may be restricted by a particularization of it in another verse – or, conversely, a particular rule may be extended into a general principle. A Tenach example: Genesis 1:27 makes the general statement that God created man. Genesis 2:7, 21 particularizes this by giving the details of the creation of Adam and Chava (Eve). Other examples would be verses detailing with how to perform sacrifices or how to keep the feasts. In the Gospels, the principle of divorce being allowed for "uncleanliness," is particularized to mean for sexual immorality only.


Read more: Hebrew Hermaneutics | Ahavat Elohim (The Love Of God) Messianic Discussion Forums

Oh you are my new best friend! We need lots more of your input in here. It surprises me that you are non-denominational and no so much about Judaism. Are you a Jew? And if not, how did you come to learn so much?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Oh you are my new best friend! We need lots more of your input in here. It surprises me that you are non-denominational and no so much about Judaism. Are you a Jew? And if not, how did you come to learn so much?

I am not Jewish. I have attended a messianic congregation for 25 years that encourages exploration of Jewish history and culture and its relationship to the New Testament. The congregational library is incredible.

 

[visionary]

Can you give me an example of Oral Torah where it BREAKS Torah? Something that Jesus addressed in the Gospels?

Would you take Peter's vision and his understanding of "oral" Torah until God clarified "unclean" gentiles.

 

[Meowzltov]

I am not Jewish. I have attended a messianic congregation for 25 years that encourages exploration of Jewish history and culture and its relationship to the New Testament. The congregational library is incredible.

But you list your faith group as non-denom rather than MJ??? How come? I'm not trying to boss you around. I'm just curious.

I know what you mean about libraries. Heaven will have a library with an infinite number of books.

 

[Meowzltov]

Would you take Peter's vision and his understanding of "oral" Torah until God clarified "unclean" gentiles.

How does not eating with Gentiles in order to make sure one stays kosher, BREAK the Torah?

 

[Elihoenai]

Moses recorded the fact that Israel crossed over the Red Sea and physically left the land of Egypt on the 17th of Nisan in

Numbers 33:1 These are the journeys of the children of Israel, which went forth out of the land of Egypt with their armies under the hand of Moses and Aaron.2 And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the LORD: and these are their journeys according to their goings out. 3 And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; (Nisan) on the morrow after the Passover (still the 15th) the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians. (Remember, Israel’s days start at sunset)4 For the Egyptians buried all their firstborn, which the LORD had smitten among them: upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments.5 And the children of Israel removed from Rameses, and pitched in Succoth. (Evening of the 15th) 6 And they departed from Succoth, and pitched in Etham, which is in the edge of the wilderness. (Evening of 16th) 7 And they removed from Etham, and turned again unto Pi-hahiroth, which is before Baal-zephon: and they pitched before Migdol. (Evening of the 17th)

The Journey of the Sons of Israel according to their Journey.


Exodus 12:48 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

48 `And when a sojourner sojourneth with thee, and hath made a passover to Jehovah, every male of his [is] to be circumcised, and then he doth come near to keep it, and he hath been as a native of the land, but any uncircumcised one doth not eat of it;



Matthew 5:17-18 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

17 `Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets -- I did not come to throw down, but to fulfill;

18 for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.

 

[gadar perets]

Deuteronomy 14 limits the general 'seed of the field' to grain, wine, and oil. Herbs are not included in that list.

Leviticus 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is YHWH'S: it is holy unto YHWH.​

This verse tells us they were to tithe of the fruit of the tree. Yet, Deuteronomy 14:22-23 says nothing about tithing fruit except in the form of wine. Therefore, the absence of herbs from Deuteronomy 14 does not prove they were not tithed by Torah.

 

[gadar perets]

Can you give me an example of Oral Torah where it BREAKS Torah? Something that Jesus addressed in the Gospels?

How about Matthew 15:3-6? I am assuming the tradition Yeshua mentioned is part of the "Oral Torah".

 

[visionary]

How does not eating with Gentiles in order to make sure one stays kosher, BREAK the Torah?

by balance scale skewed

 

[Steve Petersen]

Leviticus 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is YHWH'S: it is holy unto YHWH.​

This verse tells us they were to tithe of the fruit of the tree. Yet, Deuteronomy 14:22-23 says nothing about tithing fruit except in the form of wine. Therefore, the absence of herbs from Deuteronomy 14 does not prove they were not tithed by Torah.

The 'fruit of the trees' is wine and oil according to Rashi. It is part of the Second Tithe (See Deut. 14:23) therefore the 'seed of the land' refers to grains.

 

[gadar perets]

The 'fruit of the trees' is wine and oil according to Rashi. It is part of the Second Tithe (See Deut. 14:23) therefore the 'seed of the land' refers to grains.

Rashi was a fallible man who led Israel into deception by teaching Isaiah 53 refers to Israel rather than Messiah. The fruit of the trees may very well include wine and oil, but why exclude all other forms of fruit? I think I'll stick to Yeshua's commentary in which tithing herbs was a lesser matter of Torah.

 

[Meowzltov]

Leviticus 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is YHWH'S: it is holy unto YHWH.​

This verse tells us they were to tithe of the fruit of the tree. Yet, Deuteronomy 14:22-23 says nothing about tithing fruit except in the form of wine. Therefore, the absence of herbs from Deuteronomy 14 does not prove they were not tithed by Torah.

Leviticus 19:24 spells out the fruit tax: In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the Lord. I suspect that is the one and only tax, but I've put out feelers to find out for sure.

 

[Meowzltov]

How about Matthew 15:3-6? I am assuming the tradition Yeshua mentioned is part of the "Oral Torah".

It doesn't look like it. I searched and searched and couldn't find it anywhere.

 

[Meowzltov]

by balance scale skewed

How does it break the Torah????

 

[gadar perets]

Leviticus 19:24 spells out the fruit tax: In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the Lord. It is not part of the 10%

However, the fifth year and all ensuing years it can be eaten and therefore the increase is tithed (Leviticus 19:25).

 

[gadar perets]

It doesn't look like it. I searched and searched and couldn't find it anywhere.

Regardless of whether or not it was written down, the fact remains they were keeping that tradition. It was not part of Torah, but part of their oral traditions.

 

[visionary]

How does it break the Torah????

God says we are all equal before God.
Oral Torah states Jews are clean vs the unclean gentiles.