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You're welcome. While I'm part of the Western church I agree with the Eastern one on this issue.Interesting. . .to say the least. . .thanks.
However, in terms of Romans 5:12-15 death is only because of guilt.
Which is the central issue Paul raises and resolves there: where's the guilt of sin causing their deaths when there was no law?
Agreed. . . but "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23) is the premise of the issue of guilt which Paul is resolving in Romans 5:12-15:You're welcome. While I'm part of the Western church I agree with the Eastern one on this issue.
Romans 5 itself never includes the word 'guilt', only 'death'.
Death, that is, mortality, reigned even without the Law because regardless of the presence or absence of the Law, we're all born mortal because of Adam's sin ("on the day you eat of it you shall surely die").
We accumulate guilt over time. But we're not born guilty because of Adam. We're born mortal because of him. (In the Eastern view, anyway.) And that mortality has reigned from the beginning, even without the Law.Agreed. . . but "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23) is the premise of the issue of guilt which Paul is resolving in Romans 5:12-15:
how can there be guilt of sin which caused their deaths between Adam and Moses, when there was no law to be guilty of sinning against?
You're the one with his head in the sand. No! We were not discussing the Samaritan's use of the name of God. You decided to start an argument about one sentence out of a paragraph. One isolated sentence does NOT a regular practice make. There were other relevant comments which you chose to ignore. Which showed how some groups pronounced YHWH. And none of them pronounced it Yehovah. That is a philological impossibility.I think it is very important, since we were discussing The Name and the Samaritan use of it...but if you want to stick your head in the sand then be my guest...
how can there be guilt of sin which caused their deaths between Adam and Moses, when there was no law to be guilty of sinning against?
Numbers 33:3 They set out from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month. On the day after the Passover, the people of Israel went out triumphantly in the sight of all the Egyptians,
Deuteronomy 16:1 Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto the Lord thy God: for in the month of Abib the Lord thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.
Something just occured to me. They set out from Ramses on the 15th. This began the exodus. According to Deut 16:1, they left Egypt by night. If they kept Passover the night of the 15th, they were not allowed to leave their homes until the morning. Did they depart Egypt the next night? The beginning of the 16th? Or is it more likely they kept Passover the evening of the 14th, "spoiled the Egyptians" and prepared for departure the morning and afternoon of the 14th, and began the exodus at the beginning of the 15th?
No, it’s not mistranslated. It simply highlights that our understanding of God’s festivals is inadequate.
It is not a case of not having enough information, but rather people not accepting the information given by the eyewitness accounts in scripture.
It can be due to a lack of understanding or it being in conflict with how people perceive the event.
Yet these scriptures are fundamental in synchronizing the timeline.
Now that we agree that the Passover lamb was slaughtered on the 14th, these Scriptures clearly places Jesus on the 14th day when He instructs His disciples to go and prepare for the PASSOVER, also known as the Annual Preparation Day or preparation day for the Passover week.
This phrase is also often confused with the six verses referencing the crucifixion day as the day of preparation, not realizing that there are multiple days that qualify as the day of preparation.
Our discussion about how Passover was celebrated is basically summarized here in the New Testament, through the three Synoptic Gospels.
That night, the 15th, during the Passover cedar Jesus introduces the Communion. This is critical for it replaces the old with the new at the correct point in time and introduces or establishes the New Covenant on the 15th impeccably.
The physical lambs were a shadow of what was to come, simply a pointer to Jesus.
Denying this implies the New Covenant was introduced on an arbitrary day, which it wasn’t.
Some suggest that Jesus only ate the last supper, which is blatantly ignoring the clear instruction from Jesus to His disciples in the text to go and prepare for the Passover and suggesting that Jesus was a lawbreaker, which He wasn’t.
In fact, Luk 22: 15 reiterate Jesus’s own desire for eating this Passover.
Luk 22: 15 And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
Now the night of His capture is a direct link to Israel being freed that very same night from bondage in Egypt and occurs just after midnight.
Now for those who say that they were not allowed to leave the house till morning, Moses and Aaron did when they appeared before pharaoh Ex 12:31, so there are exceptions yet ignored or argued into submission.
The Passover lamb was cooked over a fire, yet Jesus was crucified, again ignored, therefore not all the symbolism is needed or required to align Jesus as “The Passover Lamb,” but I am sure people will still struggle to accept this or find a reason to disagree.
Pharaoh declared Israel free to leave after midnight when he called Moses and Aaron to appear before him, and in the same manner, Jesus became the Passover lamb who redeemed us from sin.
Israel was led out of Egypt the same day at sunrise, the daypart still being the 15th. Likewise in the New Covenant, we were led out from sin.
Jewish tradition linking the 15th to the exodus, and the 21st to the red sea crossing. Both annual Sabbaths.
Anyway, that's my standpoint on it.
Shalom
Deuteronomy 16:1, seems to show that the Israelites departed on the night of the 15th. Since we know they were in the homes during the Passover, and were told not to leave their homes until the morning, it seems like they kept Passover on the 14th.
You're the one with his head in the sand. No! We were not discussing the Samaritan's use of the name of God. You decided to start an argument about one sentence out of a paragraph. One isolated sentence does NOT a regular practice make. There were other relevant comments which you chose to ignore. Which showed how some groups pronounced YHWH. And none of them pronounced it Yehovah. That is a philological impossibility.
Agreed. . . but "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23) is the premise of the issue of guilt which Paul is resolving in Romans 5:12-15:
how can there be guilt of sin which caused their deaths between Adam and Moses, when there was no law to be guilty of sinning against?
As is the righteousness of God (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21) being imputed to fallen man, as it was to Abraham, by faith and not by law-keeping (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3), and as is the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to fallen man by faith in Christ, all apart from faith's works (Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28)--no law-keeping involved in righteousness of justification.
So, you simply don't believe the authoritative NT apostolic teaching of Romans 5:18?
Rather telling when one avoids demonstrating his claim. . .
Well said.Follow this:
(CLV) Ex 12:6
And it will become a charge of yours until the fourteenth day of this month. Then they will slay it, every assembly of the congregation of the sons of Israel, between the evening hours.
There is night; then there is day; then there is night again. The day is between the nights.
The lamb is slain on the 14th during the day, between the evening of the 14th, and the evening of the 15th.
(CLV) Ex 12:7
And they will take some of the blood and put it on the two jambs and on the lintel, on the houses in which they are eating it.
They haven't eaten it yet, and they are preparing for the night when the death angel will come. By placing the blood on their doorposts, they are entering a threshold covenant with YHWH. They have invited him into their homes as a member of their family. They just sacrificed the god of Egypt to do it. They have repented and put away false gods. They have just left spiritual Egypt.
(CLV) Ex 12:8
Then they will eat the flesh on this night, roasted with fire, and with unleavened bread; over bitter herbs shall they eat it.
They are eating the Passover on the first day of unleavened. unleavend bread is to be eaten for 7 days starting on the night of the 15th.
(CLV) Ex 12:22
Then you will take a bunch of hyssop, and you will dip it in the blood which is in the basin, and you will touch the lintel and the two jambs with the blood which is in the basin. As for you, not one of you shall go forth from the portal of his house until the morning.
Again they entered covenant when they put the blood of the lamb on their doorposts on the 15th, the first day of unleavened, they may not leave their houses until morning.
The death angel passed over on the night of the 15th. They left the land of Egypt on the morning of the 15th.
(CLV) Ex 12:11
And as thus shall you eat it, with your waist girded, your sandals ion your feet and your stave in your hand. You will eat it in urgent haste. It is the passover to Yahweh.
Why? Because they will be leaving quickly in the morning. When the sun comes up the Egyptians will know who was killing their gods, because YHWH told them to mark their houses with the blood of the Egyptians' false gods. After Yashar El killed off Egypt's false gods; YHWH killed of all of Egypt's firstborn, Yes, YHWH tested Yashar El's faithfulness to him right out of the gate. He made them put their light on a lamp stand, for all the Goyim to see.
Yashar El left spiritual Egypt in the darkness of the 15th, they left the Goyim by the light of the 1st day of unleavened.
(CLV) Ex 12:12
For I will pass through the land of Egypt in this night and smite every firstborn in the land of Egypt, from human even unto beast, and on all the elohim of Egypt I shall execute judgments; I am Yahweh.
Which night? The night of the 15th.
(CLV) Ex 12:13
Then the blood will become a sign for you on the houses where you are. When I see the blood I will pass over on you. And there shall not come to be a stroke on you to cause ruin when I smite in the land of Egypt.
(CLV) Ex 12:14
Hence this day will become for you a memorial, and you will celebrate it as a festival to Yahweh. Throughout your generations shall you celebrate it as an eonian statute.
What day is this? What are they remembering? How will they remember it? The next verse gives us a great clue.
(CLV) Ex 12:15
Seven days shall you eat unleavened bread. Yea, on the first day you shall eradicate yeast from your houses; for anyone eating what is leavened, from the first day unto the seventh day, that soul will be cut off from Israel.
We are spiritual beings. . .everything involving us involves our spirit.
What is the physical component of our second birth?
And your point with this?
Well said.
This meant the exodus started on the 15th early morning.
Remember that the day starts in the evening.
Shalom
There is a fundamental difference between how the Eastern and Western churches interpret Romans 5:18. And Yeshua HaDerekh identifies as Eastern.
In the Western tradition we inherit guilt. In the Eastern tradition we inherit death. Strictly speaking, the consequence of sin described in Romans 5 is death, not guilt.
It might be why the Western church has the Immaculate Conception and the Eastern church doesn't. The Eastern church doesn't need it: Mary inherited no guilt from Adam's sin, only mortality.
Yeshua HaDerekh, if I'm wrong about this please correct me.
I term this the "Neener, neener, neener you're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh!" argument.Actually it is exactly what you posted as well as your aguement with HARK! that proved my point...
I term this the "Neener, neener, neener you're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh!" argument.
And you were taught correctly, according to apostolic teaching of the NT.We accumulate guilt over time. But we're not born guilty because of Adam. We're born mortal because of him. (In the Eastern view, anyway.) And that mortality has reigned from the beginning, even without the Law.
When I first heard this it through me for a loop because I was taught I was born guilty because of Adam's sin.
And that is the issue Paul is opening up for us in Romans 5:13-15; .e., what caused us to be born "mortal," which is a sentence to death.I no longer believe that. I now believe I was born mortal, with a heart that was guaranteed to eventually accumulate sins and the corresponding guilt.
Addressed in post #277.Do you believe that Moses made this up?
(CLV) Gn 26:2
Then Yahweh appeared to him and said...
(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.
And you were taught correctly, according to apostolic teaching of the NT.
And that is the issue Paul is opening up for us in Romans 5:13-15; .e., what caused us to be born "mortal," which is a sentence to death.
We are born under the sentence to death, we don't come under it after birth,
we are by nature objects of wrath (we are born with our nature)--Ephesians 2:3.
Why were we born under this sentence?
Paul begins with the facts of the issue:
death is the consequences of sin (Romans 6:23)
sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4),
where there is no law there is no sin (Romans 5:13b),
there was no law between Adam and Moses, yet all sinned (Romans 5:13b,
demonstrated by the fact that all died, even those who did not sin (Romans 5:14).
So how does that work?
The guilt of what sin caused their death?
What is that all about?
And he answers that question in the rest of the chapter, with further revelation regarding God's purpose in Christ.
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