passion contradictions

[kidsagainstkows]

In all four books, jesus is crucified and is resurrected. this is about all that all four gospels agree on. so my question is this (these?) what day was the last supper, was jesus scared at the garden, how was jesus treated during his trial, did jesus bear his own cross, what did jesus say on the cross, did he save anybody on the cross, who was there when Jesus was discovered not to be in his tomb, when did the woman/ women arrive at the tomb, was the stone rolled away, who met them, were the people/angel/angels inside or outside the tomb, did the people who were confronted tell anyone, where did jesus/angels tell the diciples to go, did the deciples go, who did jesus appear to, and when did Jesus accend? also, how do Christians get around the fact that the gospels agree on almost nothing?

also, since i have started to see alot of nativity (i live right in the center of the bible belt) scenes i have noticed that they always have both shepards and magi around jesus, but the book that has the shepards doesnt have teh magi and vice versa.

 

[drich0150]

what day was the last supper,

It was the Jewish Feast of Pass over, to commemorate the angel of Death sparing the first born of Israel when He saw the blood of a lamb paint above the door way of the Jewish people (The 10th plague of Moses) This festival is Held on the 15th Day of Nisan. This usually falls in march or April on our calenders, but is the first month in the old Hebrew calender.

was Jesus scared at the garden

He asked that this "cup" or responsibility be taken from Him if at all possible. He prayed so hard He bled as He sweat. I'd say He was at least apprehensive about what He had to do.

how was Jesus treated during his trial

The Sanhedrin had to break every single governing rule to convict Him (Before He was turned over to the Romans for execution) The Romans couldn't find Him guilty of anything so they wanted just to have Him severely scourged and released, but the high council urged the romans to put Him to the cross.

did Jesus bear his own cross

To a point and then His beaten body gave out, then Simon carried the cross the rest of the way.

what did Jesus say on the cross,

A number of things (He was up there for about 3 hours) He told His Mother not to cry, He told John to look after His mother, He asked for Water, He told a thief being crucified with Him that "Today you will be with me in paradise." He asked God to forgive those who crucified Him, because they know not what they do. He cried out it is finish. and I'm sure there were many other things that didn't get written down.

who was there when Jesus was discovered not to be in his tomb

Jesus was placed in his tomb very hastily so as to comply with tradition about the sabbath or Saturday. And the People coming to attend to Him were there to give Him a proper burial. This type of work was usually left to the women. The women involved would have been close friends and family. Also know that Jewish tradition doesn't always make a complete written account of women in that day. We know Both Marys were present and perhaps His sisters or maybe even others.

when did the woman/ women arrive at the tomb, was the stone rolled away,

At or just after Day break. No work could have been done on the body on the sabbath. the Day then started and finished on the rising and setting of the sun, not midnight. the stone was rolled away.

were the people/angel/angels inside or outside the tomb,

We are told it was a new tomb, and that the tomb was empty.

did the people who were confronted tell anyone,

The women went back and told the disciples what happened.

where did Jesus/angels tell the disciples to go, did the deciles go,

Back to the city and wait. They were scattered and in hiding. They all went, but not all at once.

who did Jesus appear to,

Apart from the apostles (Including Paul) Great crowds of people. In that day there was little doubt.

and when did Jesus accend?

40 days after his resurrection.

also, how do Christians get around the fact that the gospels agree on almost nothing?

These are all different accounts of the same story. When a group of people wittiness a car accident often times when interviewed we can get different testimonies based on that persons personal perspective.

These accounts tract correctly. Where we would have true concern if all accounts were word for word re tellings.

also, since i have started to see alot of nativity (i live right in the center of the bible belt) scenes i have noticed that they always have both shepards and magi around Jesus, but the book that has the shepards doesnt have teh magi and vice versa.

The events of the nativity from a story tellers perspective all happen during the course of one night, when in reality these events could have taken as long as two years to unfold. the bible never implies a time line, we do that on our own.


Alot of the questions you asked can be answered in the first few chapters of ACTS

 

[kidsagainstkows]

It was the Jewish Feast of Pass over, to commemorate the angel of Death sparing the first born of Israel when He saw the blood of a lamb paint above the door way of the Jewish people (The 10th plague of Moses) This festival is Held on the 15th Day of Nisan. This usually falls in march or April on our calenders, but is the first month in the old Hebrew calender.

in John the last supper is two days before passover (19:14). (its actually 14 Nisan)

He asked that this "cup" or responsibility be taken from Him if at all possible. He prayed so hard He bled as He sweat. I'd say He was at least apprehensive about what He had to do.

in John he asks no such thing

The Sanhedrin had to break every single governing rule to convict Him (Before He was turned over to the Romans for execution) The Romans couldn't find Him guilty of anything so they wanted just to have Him severely scourged and released, but the high council urged the romans to put Him to the cross

no they didnt, in roman occupied Israel you couldnt declare yourself king, Jesus did that. anyway the point was in luke Jesus is not beaten at all (23: 1-25), in John he is beaten with rods in more of a Mel Gibson style (in no book is the beating as bad as in that movie though).

To a point and then His beaten body gave out, then Simon carried the cross the rest of the way

in luke Jesus never bears his own cross (23:26), in John (i think) he carries it the whole way.

A number of things (He was up there for about 3 hours) He told His Mother not to cry, He told John to look after His mother, He asked for Water, He told a thief being crucified with Him that "Today you will be with me in paradise." He asked God to forgive those who crucified Him, because they know not what they do. He cried out it is finish. and I'm sure there were many other things that didn't get written down

if you count all of the books he says seven things total, if you read the books in context however, some of the things that he says dont make any sense when read in the other books, for instane "My God, my God why have you forsaken me" makes no since in John's interpretation of Jesus. (theres also the question of why Jesus would say that considering he is God himself)

We know Both Marys were present and perhaps His sisters or maybe even others.

in John only Mary M. came and it was still dark (20:1), in Matt its both Marys, in Luke its Mary M., Mary mother of James, Joanna, and other women so at least five, and in mark there is mary, other mary, and Salome.

At or just after Day break. No work could have been done on the body on the sabbath. the Day then started and finished on the rising and setting of the sun, not midnight. the stone was rolled away

as i said, john says it was still dark. in Matt (28:2) an angel comes and rolls away the stone, so it was closed when they got there.

you didnt answer the next question so i will do it for you.

were the people/angel/angels inside or outside the tomb

matt says they/he were outside sitting on the stone, everyone else says they/he were inside standing or sitting.

The women went back and told the disciples what happened.

Mark 16:8 the women told no one because they were scared

Back to the city and wait. They were scattered and in hiding. They all went, but not all at once.

in Matt, he told them to go to Galilee where he met them on a mountain (28:16)

Apart from the apostles (Including Paul) Great crowds of people. In that day there was little doubt.

firstly Jesus never made an in body appearance to paul, paul's conversion experience happened after the assertion. Luke and Mark both say that he assended on the day of his resurrection (luke 24:1-51) (psuedo Mark 16:9-19), john says at least eight days, acts says forty days.

These are all different accounts of the same story. When a group of people wittiness a car accident often times when interviewed we can get different testimonies based on that persons personal perspective.

These accounts tract correctly. Where we would have true concern if all accounts were word for word re tellings.

the old car wreck analogy (my grandma has given me this one tons of times), we may have different perspectives on what happened but we are going to both know broad details more than there was a wreck. we should both know if they were cars or trucks for instance, we would remember a general color of both vehicles, we would remember if a cop or ambulance or both came after. if none of our stories matched up on these points, the most obvious assumption is that either a) we are looking at different wrecks or b) one or both of us is lying.

ACTS unfortunately is not the end all be all of the story, it cant even agree with Luke who probably was teh same author. ACTS was meant to be an epic, of the same vein as Homer's Odyssey. man that was way to long and i had to do way too much research, remind me to never make this thread again.

 

[Van]

Hi Kidsagainstkows,


When was the last supper? In an age before wristwatches, the new day started at dusk, and a "day" was any part of a day. So we would say the last supper was on Thursday evening, but at the time it was Friday morning. Since part of a day is equal to a day, it was two "days" before passover on Saturday.


Was Jesus afraid? Yes and No, when Jesus started praying He asked it the cup could be passed, but later, when Judas arrived, He said words to the effect, will I not drink the cup my father has given me? Behold the power of prayer, including probably the 23 Psalm.


Kidsagainstkows, since you asked so many questions, I will just offer something that addresses some of them.



Atheists assert that the Gospel accounts cannot be reconciled or harmonized without making unreasonable assumptions. But upon closer inspection, most if not all of the alleged “disagreements” are not in the text but in the skeptic’s interpretation. For example:

Who carried the cross to the place of execution? Matthew, Mark and Luke say Simon, but John says Jesus. But is this what the text says? No. John says that Jesus started to carry the cross (probably the cross piece, light enough to carry if you have not been beaten to a bloody pulp) to the destination. It does not say He arrived at the place of execution still carrying the cross. So it seems a manufactured disagreement to support the contention that the bible is unreliable.

What were the exact words on the sign about Jesus head?
Mark, “The King of the Jews”
Matthew, “This is Jesus The King of the Jews”
Luke, “This is the King of the Jews
John, “Jesus the Nazarene the King of the Jews.”

But do any of the Gospels say that there account is exclusive, or could other words be on the sign? Note that Mark says “the king of the Jews, Luke adds, this is and Matthew adds Jesus, and John drops “this is” and adds the Nazarene. So if the sign read, “This is Jesus the Nazarene the King of the Jews”, then all four accounts would be in agreement. So it seems that the accounts of the inscription are not necessarily in disagreement, just differing based on what the author chose to include. Mark says the charge against him (Jesus) included the inscription “the king of the Jews”, but does not rule out the possibility that the inscription included some reference to Jesus (i.e. Jesus, or this is, or Jesus the Nazarene or a combination thereof). A similar observation can be made concerning Matthew, Luke and John. Also, John tells us the inscription was Aramaic, Latin and Greek, while the other Gospels do not include this detail. Again, a difference but not a disagreement, and if the words were not identical among the three languages, it is possible that Matthew, Luke and John quoted differing versions, with Mark making reference to the “charge” only and did not include the reference to Jesus in one or more of the versions.

What did the Robbers say?
Mark, they both hurled insults.
Matthew, same as Mark
Luke, one hurled insults, the other sided with Jesus.
John, nothing was recorded.

According to Matthew, both robbers were casting this insult, “He trusts in God, let Him deliver Him now, if He takes pleasure in him, for He said, I am the Son of God.” The insult recorded by Mark is, “Let this Christ, the King of Israel, now come down from the cross, so that we may see and believe.” Luke says one of the robbers says “Are you not the Christ, save yourself and us”. The other robber then says, “Jesus remember me when you come in your Kingdom” demonstrating a faith in God. I think it is possible that the second robber wanted Jesus to prove he was the Christ and thus initially participated in hurling a challenging insult, but did not want to escape just punishment because of remorse based on his belief in the Father and so he rebuked the first robber. Again a difference in the accounts but not a disagreement. The difference in the words recorded could just be a difference in the wording of a repeated insult, all concerning the same point (save yourself and prove you are God) and the absence of the detail in John could be the result of John choosing to leave it out and include other details.

What were Jesus’ last words?
Mark, Jesus cried out, but the words if any were not recorded. (Mk. 15:37)
Matthew: Same as Mark (Mt. 27:50)
Luke: Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” (Lk. 23:46)
John: “It is finished” (Jn. 19:30)

Obviously Matthew and Mark could be referring to the same outcry as Luke. And if John is recording a prior statement because it ties in with the assignment acknowledged in John 17, then no disagreement is apparent. Jesus could have said, It is finished bowed his head and cried out, “Father into your hands I commit my spirit.” Again, the difference being in what the gospel author chose to include, but not creating a disagreement in the account.

Who went to the tomb with spices to prepare Jesus’ body.
Mark: 3 women on Sunday Morning just after sunrise.
Matthew: No record.
Luke: 4 or more women on Sunday morning very early while still dark.
John: Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus on Friday before sundown.

Before we jump into this difference, lets review the texts concerning the women witnesses. Matthew (27:55) says that many women who had followed Jesus from Galilee witnessed the crucifixion. John says Mary, the mother of Jesus’ was a witness. He says Mary Magdalene was a witness. He says Mary, the wife of Clopas, was a witness. He says the sister of Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a witness. Now Mary the wife of Clopas may be the mother of James the younger and Joses. And the sister of Mary (mother of Jesus) may be Salmone, the mother of James and John. Additional ladies may also have been witnesses such as the mother of the sons of Zebedee if Salome is not she and Joanna.

On Friday, Jesus is taken down from the cross and placed in a nearby tomb. This is done by Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus. They put spice on the body and wrap Jesus’ body with linen. Luke (23:55-56) says the women who had followed Jesus from Galilee witnessed the body of Jesus either as it was being prepared or after it was prepared, and that among these unspecified number of women were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses. After this they go and prepare spices and perfume to take back to the tomb on Sunday morning. It appears they decided to obtain more spices on Sunday morning because Mark says Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of Joses and Salmone purchased spices on Sunday morning.

Now lets review Sunday Morning. It appears the ladies may have left for the tomb before sunrise, while it was still dark but perhaps very near first light. Mark 16:1 says Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James (the Younger) and Salome went to the tomb. While on their way, just after sunrise, they wonder who will roll the stone away because they had seen Joseph put it in place. Matthew’s account meshes well with Mark’s account. Matthew says Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (mother of James the Younger and Joses, and wife of Clopas) at dawn went to the tomb. The fact that Matthew only mentions two ladies does not indicate that others were not present. Luke (24:1) says an unspecified number of women took spices they had prepared, and went to the tomb. John 20:1 says while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb. John indicates she was not alone in verse 2 with the phrase “we do not know where they have put him.”

In summary, the number of women is indeterminate but included at least three. There is no disagreement concerning the time of day or concerning the spices and perfumes.

What happened to the rock that sealed the tomb? Again, the accounts do not conflict. The rock was removed when the ladies returned to the tomb. Matthew (28:2) does not say the ladies saw the rock being removed, the text only implies that by the sequence of the information provided, that the rock was rolled away while the ladies were on the way to the tomb. Mark (16:4) says the rock had been rolled away and as they approached to enter the tomb they see what they thought was a young man sitting on the right side (perhaps on the rock). Luke says nearly the same thing except that his account also includes a second man gleaming like lightning. It also appears that the at least one of the men talked to some of the ladies while they were wondering about how the tomb became open but before they entered the tomb. (Luke 24:4) It also seems Mary Magdalene had already entered the tomb and did not get the message. Otherwise, why would Mary Magdalene say, “we don’t know where they have put him”? Also note that perhaps due to the conflicting information (Mary Magdalene’s account differs from some of the others) the apostles did not believe them because their words seemed like nonsense (Luke 24:11). Consistent with this understanding is Matthew 28:8, which says that while on their way to the disciples, Jesus appeared to some of the women. Again, it seems Mary Magdalene was not with them. But then John finishes the account (John 20:10) and tells how Mary, after being in tears with perplexity as to the whereabouts of Jesus, is restored to well being after returning to the tomb with the disciples. After the disciples had left, Jesus appears and says, “Woman, why are you crying”. I think this is the timeless message of the resurrection for all Christians, “Why are you crying?”

Did the ladies enter the tomb? Mary Magdalene certainly did, otherwise how did she know it was empty but not get the angel’s message? Luke indicates that some of the ladies may not have entered the tomb after being told Jesus is not there. Mark is consistent “as they entered, they saw a young man…” probably indicating some of the group entered and some stopped when the young man addressed them. Some of these that stopped probably entered as requested by the young man, while others may have remained outside. The text simply does not say.

How did the disciples react to the mixed message of the women? Why didn’t Mary Magdalene learn of the message from the others? Possibly because they were so afraid they did not talk among themselves (Mark 16:8). Did the disciples believe the women?
Matthew does not describe the initial encounter with the women returning from the empty tomb for the first time. Mark also does not describe the encounter. Luke says the disciples did not believe the message. John says Peter and John believed only after seeing the empty tomb that Jesus was not there. So if the women who had seen Jesus on the way to the disciples had told the disciples, Peter and John did not believe them, which of course is consistent with all the other gospel accounts.

To whom did Jesus first appear?
I think his first appearance was to some of the women initially returning from the empty tomb (Matthew 28:8), then to Mary Magdalene after returning to the tomb with Peter and John. I discount Mark 16:9-20 because the passage may be an addition because it does not appear in early manuscripts of Mark. Luke does not mention the appearance with the woman, but places chronologically the appearance to Cleopas as occurring later.
John does not mention the appearance of Jesus with the woman initially returning from the empty tomb, but places the appearance to Mary Magdalene chronologically later.

Final Thoughts

The Gospel accounts contain differences, and the above attempt to reconcile the differences may be in error, but nothing I have seen in the accounts causes me to believe that are not completely reliable.

 

[kidsagainstkows]

hey Van

there are certainly some differences that may be able to be reconsiled, but there are others that deffinately cannot. for instance, Judas could not have both given the money back and hung himself, and bought a field with his money where he exploded and his guts burst out (Matt 27 and Acts 1:18-19)

Jesus could not have died on the day before passover and the day after passover. the dusk thing doesnt work here because the death are two days different not just one, and im not sure that it would work even if it were just one days difference because of the time.

The women could not have both told no one and told the deciples.

one or both must be wrong, there is no way that both are correct. this leads me to believe that the resurrection is a complete falsification becuase the authors that talk about it agree on zero points except that a crucifixion happened and he was later resurrected.

 

[Ih8s8n]

Jesus could not have died on the day before passover and the day after passover.

kidsagainstkows: Would you kindly quote the "contradictory" verses which supposedly state such? Thanks.

 

[kidsagainstkows]

absolutely!

John 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

this is right before Jesus carries his own crossbar to the place where he is executed, so he dies on the day before passover.

Mark 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

this is the day of the last supper, which is a passover sader in Marks story, and the day before Jesus is executed making the day that he dies the day after the passover.

these verses are from the Skeptics Annotated Bible btw which uses the KJV mostly, which is a very literal interpretation as opposed to the NIV or the *shudder* message.

 

[drich0150]

in John the last supper is two days before passover (19:14). (its actually 14 Nisan)

Ex.12
Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel. And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

Nisan 14 The eight days begins with the Passover meal on Nisan 14 and is referred to as the Cedar or Seder) [say-dor] continues on the 15th-21st of Nisan which is the Feast of the Unleaven bread.
Before the Passover: A young male lamb is selected which is without blemish four days before the Passover. They examine it carefully to make sure it is perfect. The Jewish day begins at sundown one day and ends the twenty four hours later at sunset. The Passover therefore begins at sundown or the begin of the 14th day of Nisan. On the Passover night the blood of the lamb is sprinkled on the door posts of the house.

So yes The 14th I stand corrected. I read a little too quickly and my western calender took over.

in John he asks no such thing

John is only but one account. there are 3 others that combine to make a more complete understanding of the events that surrounded the life and times of Jesus.

no they didnt, in roman occupied Israel you couldnt declare yourself king, Jesus did that. anyway the point was in luke Jesus is not beaten at all (23: 1-25), in John he is beaten with rods in more of a Mel Gibson style (in no book is the beating as bad as in that movie though).

John 18:

28Then the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness the Jews did not enter the palace; they wanted to be able to eat the Passover. 29So Pilate came out to them and asked, "What charges are you bringing against this man?"

30"If he were not a criminal," they replied, "we would not have handed him over to you."
31Pilate said, "Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law."
"But we have no right to execute anyone," the Jews objected. 32This happened so that the words Jesus had spoken indicating the kind of death he was going to die would be fulfilled.
33Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"
34"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"
35"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?"
36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." 38"What is truth?" Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, "I find no basis for a charge against him. 39But it is your custom for me to release to you one prisoner at the time of the Passover. Do you want me to release 'the king of the Jews'?"

Apparently being a King of a "Kingdom not of this world" was NOT a reason to execute someone.

John 19:
1Then Pilate took Jesus and had him flogged. 2The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe 3and went up to him again and again, saying, "Hail, king of the Jews!" And they struck him in the face.

It is the 1st century Historian Josephus that records or defines the "Mel Gibson" type of beating that was a Roman flogging.

in luke Jesus never bears his own cross (23:26), in John (i think) he carries it the whole way.

In John We are never told whether or not Jesus carried His own cross the whole way or not, it is left up to the reader to decide.

if you count all of the books he says seven things total, if you read the books in context however, some of the things that he says dont make any sense when read in the other books, for instane "My God, my God why have you forsaken me" makes no since in John's interpretation of Jesus.

Why not? Have ever been forsaken by God? Why do you think it is not logical to ask God why you are going through what it is your going through especially in a time of great spiritual and physical pain?

(theres also the question of why Jesus would say that considering he is God himself)

Because God is a title and not a name. God the Son was crying out to God the Father.

in John only Mary M. came and it was still dark (20:1), in Matt its both Marys, in Luke its Mary M., Mary mother of James, Joanna, and other women so at least five, and in mark there is mary, other mary, and Salome.

Again in that time, and in that society it was not necessary to count, name or list women. So the stories told by these men will reflect their need to exercise that right.

as i said, john says it was still dark. in Matt (28:2) an angel comes and rolls away the stone, so it was closed when they got there.

you didnt answer the next question so i will do it for you.

It was considered "dark" till the sun broke the horizon. and Because it was still considered The sabbath until the sun rise, no actual work could be done on the body of Christ. So despite your need to have the Hour, minute, and second of the arrival of the first visitor, my account of these events did in fact answer your question, albeit not in the way you were apparently demanding.

matt says they/he were outside sitting on the stone, everyone else says they/he were inside standing or sitting.

How does this change the fact that Jesus body was not inthe tomb?

in Matt, he told them to go to Galilee where he met them on a mountain (28:16

)

In matthew there isn't a defined time line between verse 10 and verse 16 where the story picks back up after the side bar explaining what happened to the roman soldiers. In the 40 days since the resurrection to His final Ascension alot happened, and apparently between the first day and the final Ascension. The apostles were in fact told to goto the foot of the mountain where Verse 16 picks up.

One more time the events written in the 4 gospels and Acts are not stand alone re tellings, but different aspects or POV's on the life and times of Jesus.

firstly Jesus never made an in body appearance to paul, paul's conversion experience happened after the assertion.

You didn't specify a time line, you simply asked who did Jesus reveal himself to..

Luke and Mark both say that he assended on the day of his resurrection (luke 24:1-51) (psuedo Mark 16:9-19), john says at least eight days, acts says forty days.

Upon the resurrection Jesus did not stay with the apostles as He did before the crucification, He came and he went. When he left it was sometimes described as him returning or ascending to Heaven. He came and went for forty days.

we should both know if they were cars or trucks for instance, we would remember a general color of both vehicles, we would remember if a cop or ambulance or both came after. if none of our stories matched up on these points, the most obvious assumption is that either a) we are looking at different wrecks or b) one or both of us is lying.

Have you ever been in a traumatic accident? well I have. The lady I hit was ejected from her car and her lower half slammed into my windshield while her upper half bend back wards around my driver side door, when she glanced off my truck, her limp rag doll body was thrown into the road where her cars right rear tire came to rest on her pelvis.

I remember her sitting at the stop sign, I remember seeing her talk on the phone, I remember hitting her in slow mo after she decided to dart, but after that I don't or can't remember much else. Apparently one telling of events says I went over and checked on the girl first, and another says I simply pick up and pushed the car off of her right away. Either way, I don't remember how she made her way back to the driver's seat, but I do remember telling her not to move. Someone else said she dragged herself (over broken legs, pelvis and spine.) Then later (years later) She told me she was helped. I can't remember who showed up first fire, police or ambulance, but I do remember the news helicopters above wanting to catch a glimpse of a girl caught under a twisted car..

This was all a first persons accounting of traumatic events. It's broken and messy, there are some things I left out that i do remember but can't place in the time line of events.. Because it is sometimes hard to make sense of traumatic events.

The reason the car crash story is told so many times, is because there are enough of us have experience a serious traumatic event at some point in their lives, and for us it works.

remind me to never make this thread again.

Don't make this thread again.

 

[Van]

Hi Kidsagainstkows, The accounts of the death of Judas can be harmonized. Jesus died on the Day before passover. That is why they rushed to get Him into the tomb, and then after Passover, they went early Sunday morning.

I answered the women contention. Therefore your conclusion seems driven by presumption. The Gospel accounts contain differences, and the above attempt to reconcile the differences may be in error, but nothing I have seen in the accounts causes me to believe that are not completely reliable.

 

[Ih8s8n]

absolutely!

kidsagainstkows: Sorry to burst your bubble, but that should have read:

Absolutely NOT!

You'll see why in a moment.

John 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

this is right before Jesus carries his own crossbar to the place where he is executed, so he dies on the day before passover.

Mark 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

this is the day of the last supper, which is a passover sader in Marks story, and the day before Jesus is executed making the day that he dies the day after the passover.

First of all, the term "Passover" could be used/was used to describe more than just a single day. In fact, it was sometimes used to describe the duration of the Passover AND the feast of unleavened bread. Similarly, the feast of unleavened bread was sometimes used to describe the period of time that included the Passover meal. Consider the following, if you will:

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" (Matthew 26:17)

Here, the passover is going to be eaten on the first day of the feast of unleavened bread. We see the same scenario in the verse which you provided from Mark's gospel.

"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" (Mark 14:12)

Once again, we see how both feasts are spoken of interchangably. What about Luke? Luke is even more explicit when he says:

"Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover. And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people. Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them. And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money. And he promised, and sought opportunity to betray him unto them in the absence of the multitude. Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed." (Luke 22:1-7)

Here, the feast of unleavened bread is actually called "the Passover" by a gospel writer. With these things in mind, why should it seem so surprising to see the 4th gospel writer use the terms "Passover" and "feast of unleavened bread" in the same manner as the other 3 gospel writers?

"And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!" (John 19:14)

It's neither surprising NOR CONTRADICTORY at all...except for those with an agenda, that is. In all 4 gospel accounts, the passover meal had already been eaten by Jesus and His disciples BEFORE He was crucified. That's reality...like it or not.

these verses are from the Skeptics Annotated Bible btw which uses the KJV mostly, which is a very literal interpretation as opposed to the NIV or the *shudder* message.

I'm very familiar with the Skeptic's Annotated Bible. As a matter of fact, I just finished wasting the better part of 4 years on another forum in which I repeatedly showed hardcore atheists that the author of the Skeptic's Annotated Bible is ignorant. They never budged at my repeated refutations of what is contained on that site. Hopefully, you won't prove to be as stubbornly/willfully ignorant as they were. Time will tell. Take care.

 

[kidsagainstkows]

So yes The 14th I stand corrected. I read a little too quickly and my western calender took over.

its ok i had to research it for class or else i wouldnt know either

John is only but one account. there are 3 others that combine to make a more complete understanding of the events that surrounded the life and times of Jesus.

i believe there is a point earlier in John where Jesus specifically says that when the day comes that he is taken he will show no fear because it is his destiny but im not sure where that is so dont hold me to it.

the point is that the understanding is not more complete but more confusing.

Apparently being a King of a "Kingdom not of this world" was NOT a reason to execute someone.

John 19:
1Then Pilate took Jesus and had him flogged. 2The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe 3and went up to him again and again, saying, "Hail, king of the Jews!" And they struck him in the face.

It is the 1st century Historian Josephus that records or defines the "Mel Gibson" type of beating that was a Roman flogging

Im not sure if you have ever read about Pilot (we know he really existed) in any place other than the bible but it should be noted that he was a pretty ruthless guy. also in the bronze age there was a certain spectacle to execution. Pilot, even if he didnt think Jesus should be executed, would have no problem executing Jesus if the people wanted it. im not arguing that Jesus broke any actual laws (other than declaring himself messiah (king) just as David had, or the supposed breaking of the sabbath with a miracle), but that it doesnt actually matter whether Jesus broke laws.

also flogging was a moderately bad beating by using a cat-o-nine with wood cork at the end. the one in the Passion movie was worse than that (i forget the name of it now but i think it started with a v) because it had hooks in it.

point is Jesus was beaten in Johns Gospel and was not in Lukes Gospel.

In John We are never told whether or not Jesus carried His own cross the whole way or not, it is left up to the reader to decide

John 19:17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:

sounds like he carried it the whole way there to me, and even if he didnt, in luke he never carried it at all

Why not? Have ever been forsaken by God? Why do you think it is not logical to ask God why you are going through what it is your going through especially in a time of great spiritual and physical pain?

becuase in the gospels where that particular line is said Jesus is very human and very jewish (mark and matt). in John Jesus pretty much thinks all Pharisees are evil and very spiritual and is the same as god. Jesus makes almost no references to himself apart from God at all in John.

not sure what "Have ever been forsaken by God" means but if there was supposed to be a you in there the answer is no, because god doesnt exist.

Again in that time, and in that society it was not necessary to count, name or list women. So the stories told by these men will reflect their need to exercise that right.

the bible is supposedly infallible. so my rebuttal is twofold, A) even if at that time it wasnt necessary to list women, the bible would have because it should not be held to the standards of that time but of a perfect standard, and B) the bible does go to the trouble of listing and naming women everytime there is multiples at least in part.

How does this change the fact that Jesus body was not inthe tomb?

it doesnt, the point is the bible is fallible and you just mentioned the second of a total two things that all books in the bible agree upon with regards to the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

In matthew there isn't a defined time line between verse 10 and verse 16 where the story picks back up after the side bar explaining what happened to the roman soldiers. In the 40 days since the resurrection to His final Ascension alot happened, and apparently between the first day and the final Ascension. The apostles were in fact told to goto the foot of the mountain where Verse 16 picks up.

in Mark they never leave the city (and if you dont count psuedo mark he never appears to anyone at all) and in John they never go to a mountain but instead to a beach. so in addition to my previous questions, where was Jesus' final appearance?

You didn't specify a time line, you simply asked who did Jesus reveal himself to.

granted, sorry for the confusion.

Upon the resurrection Jesus did not stay with the apostles as He did before the crucification, He came and he went. When he left it was sometimes described as him returning or ascending to Heaven. He came and went for forty days.

can you do me a favor and show me biblical evidence that this happened (e.g. multiple assentions in a single book)

Have you ever been in a traumatic accident? well I have.

im sorry to hear that i hope both you and the lady suffered no long term side effects from it.

when you were in that accident there were alot of things happening to your body, for instance your body released endorphins and lactic acid to reduce pain and make you stronger. the unnecessary portions were shut down such as memory for that event.

we are not speaking about you or the person you hits story however, but four people who were standing on the corner of the road as the accident happened. those people did not have those things happening to them and should be able to give broad brush details of how the events actually played out.

Don't make this thread again.

thanks for reminding me

because their body was not going through the things that your body was

 

[kidsagainstkows]

kidsagainstkows: Sorry to burst your bubble, but that should have read:

Absolutely NOT!

You'll see why in a moment.



First of all, the term "Passover" could be used/was used to describe more than just a single day. In fact, it was sometimes used to describe the duration of the Passover AND the feast of unleavened bread. Similarly, the feast of unleavened bread was sometimes used to describe the period of time that included the Passover meal. Consider the following, if you will:

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" (Matthew 26:17)

Here, the passover is going to be eaten on the first day of the feast of unleavened bread. We see the same scenario in the verse which you provided from Mark's gospel.

"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" (Mark 14:12)

Once again, we see how both feasts are spoken of interchangably. What about Luke? Luke is even more explicit when he says:

"Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover. And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people. Then entered Satan inot Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them. And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money. And he promised, and sought opportunity to betray him unto them in the absence of the multitude. Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed." (Luke 22:1-



sed to the NIV or the *shudder* message.

i think that the feasts in both matt and mark are talking about the same feast (the first one of passover week) my contention was in the book of John, where Jesus dies before passover starts (in johns last supper there is no communion, thats the one where he washes feet)

 

[kidsagainstkows]

The accounts of the death of Judas can be harmonized.

may i please have some detail of how someone can give money back, kill themselves, then buy a field with the money that he gave back, and subsequently keel over and die again.

also please dont give any extrabiblical evidence or add anything to the bible because if you do you will be "proven a liar and rebuked" (proverbs)

ill provide the relivent verses to make it easier
3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
6And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
7And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
8Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
(Matt 27)

16Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.



(Acts 1)

 

[sk8Joyful]

was jesus scared at the garden

Others have, & do answer your other questions, so
I'll agree to speak to this, supposed, issue of Jesus being "afraid" anywhere. No.

Interpreting & preaching:
1. He asked this cup/responsibility be taken from Him if at all possible.
2. He prayed so hard, apprehensive He bled as He sweat,
their position is defended.

But just think about it: This same PASSIONATE Jesus = GOD
Yes, the same God who created, creates, & continues creating entire worlds,
universes, stars, planets, moons, galaxies, & life in countless... ways. - Then
this same God
comes to earth, as (with the exception of a soul's salvation, & a few others) THE Example, for us.
How often do we ask God:
"Please, don't make me do that.
Please, I don't want to experience pain.
Please, isn't there some other way? Please God help me" - and
God says:
'More often than not, yes you have other choices!, but sometimes not.
Sometimes you grow thru difficult trials; but I went thru trials
the likes of which you, fortunately, can't even imagine.
BUT
more of the time Jesus was our examplar... showing us how to live, & teach.

Too, GOD KNEW beforehand, the selfish destructiveness of humanity; so nothing surprised Him.
Meaning God
intentionally came to die, plus Resurrect: these 2 were so, that we, each of His children can, in fact, also LIVE eternally. None of us can fathom our SAVIOR's actions, primarily His perfect-LOVE, as we are not perfect. And that's how GOD designed, and carried it out.

What a Creator, Father, Teacher, Savior, BEST-friend, mentor & Resurrector we have in Jesus Christ.

 

[drich0150]

i believe there is a point earlier in John where Jesus specifically says that when the day comes that he is taken he will show no fear because it is his destiny but im not sure where that is so dont hold me to it.

the point is that the understanding is not more complete but more confusing.

Not wanting to go, and being afraid to go are two different things. You can not want to do something and ask that things be changed and not be afraid. Also note when the soldiers Came He did not falter, nor did he show any fear.

point is Jesus was beaten in Johns Gospel and was not in Lukes Gospel.

Granted, but just because Luke didn't give an account doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means for whatever reason luke did not include those events.

becuase in the gospels where that particular line is said Jesus is very human and very jewish (mark and matt). in John Jesus pretty much thinks all Pharisees are evil and very spiritual and is the same as god. Jesus makes almost no references to himself apart from God at all in John.

I still don't see a point.. I even tried placing a "you" in several key spots and nothing..

A) even if at that time it wasnt necessary to list women, the bible would have because it should not be held to the standards of that time but of a perfect standard,

Who says? you and your definition of infallible? The bible doesn't claim to be infallible.

The church may claim the infallibility of scripture, but even so look at what that word truly means:
1.absolutely trustworthy or sure: an infallible rule.
2.unfailing in effectiveness or operation; certain: an infallible remedy.
3.not fallible; exempt from liability to error, as persons, their judgment, or pronouncements: an infallible principle.
4.Roman Catholic Church. immune from fallacy or liability to error in expounding matters of faith or morals by virtue of the promise made by Christ to the Church.

No where does the definition of infallible include that the bible is free from the personal interpretation of the writers of scripture. The only thing that even comes close is the infallibility of the promises made by Christ to the Church.

B) the bible does go to the trouble of listing and naming women every time there is multiples at least in part.

But nowhere do we have an example of a complete list of women in any event. Only those who are held in high esteem or have been signaled out for the point or purpose of a specific account.

in Mark they never leave the city (and if you dont count psuedo mark he never appears to anyone at all) and in John they never go to a mountain but instead to a beach. so in addition to my previous questions, where was Jesus' final appearance?

Evidently there wasn't a big send off. He said His final goodbyes one or two groups at a time. Which one was his absolute final?? The bible is unclear.

can you do me a favor and show me biblical evidence that this happened (e.g. multiple assentions in a single book)

Again these books do not stand alone. collectively they tell one story. It is evident through the different accounts and different descriptions that Jesus did not stay with his disciples as He did before the crucification and that He came and went. When He left his goings were ascribed as ascensions.. We know this went on for 40 days as described by the writter of Luke in Acts.

we are not speaking about you or the person you hits story however, but four people who were standing on the corner of the road as the accident happened. those people did not have those things happening to them and should be able to give broad brush details of how the events actually played out.

Actually no.. If we are making analogies again we are speaking about 4 accounts of 4 people who were in the truck with Jesus. Because for them they had spent the last few years with Him, and were also guilty by association, as Peter found out. Imagine that you know yourself to be with God in human form, but He seems to be powerless in confronting the establishment of religious government.. So much so, you see or hear of him being beaten with in a inch of his life and sentenced to be crucified..

Much like a robbery gone bad, whether you pull the trigger of if your just the look out, to society you are just as guilty. And so where all of these men. Their Master was sentenced to die, and so would all of them, had they been there. Or so thought Peter.

Even if the 4 didn't sustain the same injurys as Jesus, they and the rest of the 12 were none the less all involved in that train wreck.

because their body was not going through the things that your body was

I guess you never been chased by the cops, or at least maybe had something in the car when you were pulled over that you should not have had.. Let's just say from experience your not making mental notes for your memoirs.. Your just looking and praying to get through this situation without getting caught.. And depending on how much stress you able to take, your account may also vary. From someone else in the car.

 

[drich0150]

may i please have some detail of how someone can give money back, kill themselves, then buy a field with the money that he gave back, and subsequently keel over and die again.

Judas felt guilty Gave the money back and hanged himself in the potters field. Because the 30 pieces of silver was considered to be blood money the Pharisees could not have legally kept it. (As a matter of fact no one could) So they bought the field in which Judas died In his name. Because there was no love for Judas his corpse was left to rot in the tree and finally something gave way allowing him to fall spilling his guts all over the rocks below.

I took all of the accounts along with a little bit of Jewish law and came up with a very logical chain of events..

 

[Ih8s8n]

i think that the feasts in both matt and mark are talking about the same feast (the first one of passover week) my contention was in the book of John, where Jesus dies before passover starts (in johns last supper there is no communion, thats the one where he washes feet)

kidsagainstkows: First of all, the post of mine that you quoted was incomplete. I was typing my response to you last night when my post just suddenly disappeared. I did look for it a few times on this thread to see if it had somehow posted, but it wasn't there. I was greatly surprised to see it on this thread when I awoke this morning. Anyhow, I didn't change anything that was already posted. I did, however, finish my thoughts. Hopefully, you'll take a look at my completed response on page 1 of this thread.

As far as your contention is concerned, it is totally unfounded. There are plenty of other similarities between John's account and the other gospel writers' accounts to show that the meal in John is the same meal that is described by the other gospel writers. Your so-called "contradictions" all seem to stem from simply different aspects of the same accounts being described. Just because John didn't specifically mention the communion supper doesn't mean that it didn't happen. It simply means that the focus of his writing was different than that of the other gospel writers in this instance. Anyhow, my advice to you is to separate yourself from the "Skeptic's Annotated Bible". Unless, of course, you want to wind up as ignorant as the author of that site. Take care.

 

[kidsagainstkows]

No where does the definition of infallible include that the bible is free from the personal interpretation of the writers of scripture. The only thing that even comes close is the infallibility of the promises made by Christ to the Church.

im quoting this first because it seems to be the most important for our discussion. if i understand this correctly, you are saying that the bible makes no claims to be infallible, this is a major sticking point for me (one of the first reasons i began to waver in my belief) because in my interpretation of the bible it was supposed to be infallible.

the problem if you say that the bible can be in error is that it is the only document / set of documents that provide any evidence for your faith at all. so if you are saying that the evidence for your faith can be in error, are you also saying that it is at least possible that your faith is in error?

sorry if i missed your point but that is how i read it.

but just because Luke didn't give an account doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means for whatever reason luke did not include those events.

two things in regards to this

1) there isnt even any time for Jesus to get beaten in Luke. Do you really think that if the most important guy ever was standing in front of you getting the crap beat out of him you would just forget to add that bit in?

2) as you have apparently conceded, Luke or John or both may have just been wrong about the details, and if they are wrong about all of the details, who is to say that the event ever happened at all?

But nowhere do we have an example of a complete list of women in any event. Only those who are held in high esteem or have been signaled out for the point or purpose of a specific account.

Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him

that sounds like a complete list to me, if i didnt know any other accounts existed there would be no reason for me to think there was anyone else.

Much like a robbery gone bad, whether you pull the trigger of if your just the look out, to society you are just as guilty. And so where all of these men. Their Master was sentenced to die, and so would all of them, had they been there. Or so thought Peter.

i would argue that that is certainly not the case for all the authors of the books. even if you think that the authors are the namesake of their books then Luke wasnt a deciple and was only loosely affiliated with Peter and Paul, Mark was in the same boat (he was Greek and not under strict roman influence at the time, also he wrote early enough where it wasnt that big of a deal yet). they had little emotional connectivity to the situation, and certainly wernt in harms way so often that they were perpetually scared for their lives.

I guess you never been chased by the cops, or at least maybe had something in the car when you were pulled over that you should not have had.

nope, i dont do drugs. i do, however, think that they should be legal.

Judas felt guilty Gave the money back and hanged himself in the potters field. Because the 30 pieces of silver was considered to be blood money the Pharisees could not have legally kept it. (As a matter of fact no one could) So they bought the field in which Judas died In his name. Because there was no love for Judas his corpse was left to rot in the tree and finally something gave way allowing him to fall spilling his guts all over the rocks below.

if thats what happened why wouldnt they have just said it. especially in ACTS where everyone would have liked to have heard that Judas felt remorseful and hung himself to get at least a little sympathy (they spent 6 months to 3 years with the guy after all). you cant mix and match scripture to fit your needs. you have again already conceded that one or both might just be wrong so why do you have to come up with a story that is no where in the bible at all.

the other problem is this, being hung doesnt make your guts fall out. rotting also doesnt do it either. Judas would have eventually slipped out of his noose and fallen to the ground, later he would bloat and eventually maggots and worms would bust out of him, but not his guts.

Ih8s8n: i reread your completed post. you seem to neglect that the passage in John in not in the same place that the synoptics are. the passage in John is on the day that Jesus dies and it talks about being in the day of prep in about the sixth hour. the purpose of this passage in john is symbolic. in John, Jesus dies at the exact same time that the passover sheep do. in the synoptics however Jesus clearly eats a passover sader as his last meal before going into the garden to pray, so he dies on the second day of passover.

but lets ignore that for a moment, lets pretend that you have been commissioned to write an account of Jesus and you are living with him at the time (we will also ignore that John was written 70-80 years after Jesus died because that fact totally destroys any credibility the book has in the first place). Jesus says/ does three things and you can only write down 2 so what do you write down

a) Jesus comes in and washes feet, a tradition in many households at the time

b) Jesus claims he is about to be murdered and the murderer is in the room

c) Jesus wants you to eat of his body and drink of his blood and that way you will be cleansed of sin.

A just doesnt seem so important that you would write it down if the other two things had happened. or you would at least not neglect the call by Jesus for you to symbolically cannibalize his body.

Finally, you would be surprised how hard it is to find an easy to navigate bible for free on the web, do you have any good sources? i use SAB mostly because it is both easy to navigate, and if i see a contradiction, but cant quite remember where it is, it will point me right to it.

 

[drich0150]

the problem if you say that the bible can be in error is that it is the only document / set of documents that provide any evidence for your faith at all. so if you are saying that the evidence for your faith can be in error, are you also saying that it is at least possible that your faith is in error?

I'm saying that the bible does not ascribe itself to your version of infallibility. It makes no claim of being perfect. Only God is Perfect. The bible is not God. It is a work of the Holy Spirit through the men who penned the actual words. And therefore will be subject to any mistakes or customs the men who wrote it were influenced by. Where the infallible nature of scripture can be found is in the wisdom and promises of Christ.

Those who look to scripture as being perfect as God is perfect, often times shift their focus worship to the bible, as if it were God Himself. This can be considered a form of self worship. Because the focus that is supposed to be on God Is placed on the collective interpretation of God's book in a given denominational academic setting. In order for this to be justified alot of time the subject of study had to be deified whether it be a saint, angel, heaven, or the bible.

That said, the evidence of our faith has been established by 4 different accounts. Anyone looking for God through Jesus will find sufficient evidence in these 4 accounts. Those who are looking to endorse their own version of righteousness can also find what it is they are looking for in these 4 accounts...

What is in error is the method in which we worship and represent God through our various attempts at religion. But fortunately, Where scripture is abundantly clear is that there is forgiveness of sins for all who seek it. If we can be forgiven for murder hate and rape through the blood of Jesus. Will will be forgiven for our denominational differences as well.

there isnt even any time for Jesus to get beaten in Luke. Do you really think that if the most important guy ever was standing in front of you getting the crap beat out of him you would just forget to add that bit in?

Luke wasn't present during everything he recorded.

Luke1:
1Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

2) as you have apparently conceded, Luke or John or both may have just been wrong about the details, and if they are wrong about all of the details, who is to say that the event ever happened at all?

It is proved in the 4 books as a whole. If there were only one account then it would be iffy at best. two maybe a little more stable, but we have 4 accounts of one man's life. And a history of martyrdom as a testament to the truth behind these accounts.
For those who seek God that is enough.

Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him

that sounds like a complete list to me, if i didnt know any other accounts existed there would be no reason for me to think there was anyone else.

Is it? or do you assume that it is? if the others were not listed then how would you know? Jesus touched alot of lives.. Healed alot of people. To me it may have been possible to have more than 3 people at his final burial.. Where was his mother? She was at the crucification, but not at the burial?

i would argue that that is certainly not the case for all the authors of the books. even if you think that the authors are the namesake of their books then Luke wasnt a deciple and was only loosely affiliated with Peter and Paul, Mark was in the same boat (he was Greek and not under strict roman influence at the time, also he wrote early enough where it wasnt that big of a deal yet). they had little emotional connectivity to the situation, and certainly wernt in harms way so often that they were perpetually scared for their lives.

Even so, the authors who were at the scene would have had their memories influenced by the events themselves. When I was pulled as the suspected DC sniper I thought i handled the situation rather well, but my wife swears God must have been looking out for us on that one, because of how badly I buckled under the pressure of having 15 cops and a swat team point their guns at me all shouting different commands.
If you hear Her tell the story I peed my pants, and cried like a little girl. But if you hear me tell it I was scared but no where nearly as bad as she said i was, although they took my pants off along the side of the road (I guess checking for a sniper's rifle in my underwear) I did not pee my pants..

I say that for the authors who were not present during these events, because even if they recorded their stories in a clam environment they still had to make sense of those who were apart of these events.

if thats what happened why wouldnt they have just said it. especially in ACTS where everyone would have liked to have heard that Judas felt remorseful and hung himself to get at least a little sympathy (they spent 6 months to 3 years with the guy after all). you cant mix and match scripture to fit your needs. you have again already conceded that one or both might just be wrong so why do you have to come up with a story that is no where in the bible at all.

You have to remember this was not a modern western society, feelings ran very deep. Also know that it was believed to be bad form to talked about the "cursed" People had a different view on suicide then. It was more along the lines as if they did not exist, or very little was spoken about them. This story demanded an end to Judas and the authors included the bits a pieces of what happened to him as they were aware of it. (even though it was counter to the culture at the time.)

the other problem is this, being hung doesnt make your guts fall out. rotting also doesnt do it either. Judas would have eventually slipped out of his noose and fallen to the ground, later he would bloat and eventually maggots and worms would bust out of him, but not his guts.

I saw a deer hung to be Field dressed and the guy who was doing the work, for whatever reason left the deer hanging in the tree. a week later the buzzards and the maggots and done there work and to me the mess or stain on the ground looked as if his guts burst out. Primarily because the chest cavity was mostly empty. I say that to say I don't think the writers were looking for correct medical terminology. I think they were trying to paint a picture of how a "cursed man" is left to rot.

 

[Van]

Hi Kidsagainstkows, how can the accounts of the end of Judas be harmonized?

JUDAS


Several difficulties exist with the account of Judas Iscariot as recorded in the Bible. His last name may just refer to his place of origin rather than the name of his father. Did Jesus call him and appeal to him in good faith or was he pre-ordained to betray Jesus?
His example tells us we can know Jesus, think that He exists, but never place our trust in Him and never be born again. Could Satan have captured and destroyed Judas if he had been born again? I do not think so.

I cannot tell you exactly how he died, but I think he stopped breathing, his heart stopped, his eyes bulged out and he twisted in the wind, hung from a rotten rope. The rope was hung from a tree located in a field he may not have purchased with 30 pieces of silver. Sometime later, after his body had swelled, either the rope broke or perhaps the branch broke and his body fell head-long and split open like a ripe fruit on some rocks. Matthew 27: 3-10 contains part of our account and Luke’s record in Acts 1:16-19 provides the rest.

If Judas died by his own hand after throwing away the thirty pieces of silver, then he may have bought the land by his wickedness. So the Field of Blood may have been "bought" by Judas, not by purchasing it from a real estate broker, but by gaining "ownership" of the "Field of Blood" by his wickedness. He died there, spilled his blood there and the field became known as the Field of Blood bought by the wickedness of Judas.

Thus the Potter's field is not necessarily the same location as the Field of Blood but it is also possible the Priest’s purchased the very location of Judas’ death with the money earned by Judas’ wickedness.

Did Zechariah 11:12-13 prophesy the betrayal by Judas for 30 pieces of silver. It seems very much like what Matthew recorded in Matthew 26:14-15. See also Matthew 27:3-10. In John 17:12 we see that Judas was chosen so that scripture could be fulfilled. And in John 13:18 Jesus indicates Judas was chosen to fulfill Psalm 41:9, but He omits the phrase “in whom I trusted” again showing Judas was chosen for betrayal to fulfill scripture.


Will Judas sit on one of the twelve thrones? I do not know. Did Jesus say Judas would sit on one of the twelve thrones in Matthew 19:28? No, only those disciples that follow Him. Could the statement be true if only eleven of the disciples present sit on the twelve thrones? Yes.

Did Jesus appear to the twelve all at one time? I do not know; did Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:5 say Jesus appeared to the twelve all at one time? No. Could Judas have seen the risen Christ before he died? I think so. The account of Judas throwing the money away and going out and hanging himself suggests his death may have preceded Jesus; for Jesus had been condemned, but the record of his death follows the record of Judas’ death. However, the text also suggests that Judas saw the risen Christ (Paul says Christ appeared to the twelve and then later to the apostles indicating that the twelve might include a separate appearance to Judas, thus adding to his remorse and desire to end his life.) Matthew 10:22 suggests that Judas would not endure to the end and thus not be redeemed. Jesus Christ will judge and either punish or reward Judas according to His perfect justice.