Pascal's Wager

[looking_for_answers_]

There's only one Creator; talk to him.

My Muslim & Hindu friends would say the exact same thing. They would of course be talking about entirely different creators. I would have to... pick... which one I believe in.

 

[Hieronymus]

Atheists get asked about this a lot, so I wanted to ask it from a different position.

So Judgement day arrives for you, you see a light and follow it. As your eyes come accustom to the light you see a figure sat on a chair, you can feel is divinity.

So far so good, there is an afterlife and your off to Heaven, but …

...Sat in that chair is a huge figure with the body of a man and the head of an Elephant, Lord Ganesha – Lord of Beginnings and Remover of Obstacles, Lord of the Ganas, Son of Shiva (the Supreme Being).
Who would have know that the oldest of the main religions was actually right.

Oldest?
I'm not so sure about that.
But it doesn't matter too much.

To make matters worst he is not a happy camper, and his anger is directed towards you,

“How could you have rejected the true Gods?”
“All the signs have been placed before you”
“how could you have worshiped a false God,”
“How could you have not known when 70 million others followed the true path?”

What are you going to say?

I would say he probably knows better than i do why i didn't believe he is God.

Do you think he would be morally correct to punish you (or Shiva if you object to his son dishing out punishments)?

Depends if i'm sorry for my mistake, depends on what the punishment would be.
I have sought God in my mortal life, diligently, and followed where the answers lead to.
What more could i have done?
I would apologise for my mistake, because i believed YHWH Elohim including Yeshua the Anointed is God.
Who knows, but i might be inclined to request my termination / annihilation, because i have little faith in / love for the hindu gods.

This touches on the fate of the unsaved question, obviously.
I believe in YHWH Elohim, and i believe He (eventually anyway) annihilates what He hates and / or what has served its purpose.
This includes the purging and cleansing of hated aspects, as it is written, many will be saved through the fire, God being the Fire Himself.
But if God is a God who will punish by inflicting torment for no purpose other than to inflict torment, for making honest mistakes, whether He has a trunk or many arms or whatever, it would be morally incorrect i.m.o.

 

[looking_for_answers_]

Oldest?
I'm not so sure about that.
But it doesn't matter too much.
I would say he probably knows better than i do why i didn't believe he is God.Depends if i'm sorry for my mistake, depends on what the punishment would be.
I have sought God in my mortal life, diligently, and followed where the answers lead to.
What more could i have done?
I would apologise for my mistake, because i believed YHWH Elohim including Yeshua the Anointed is God.
Who knows, but i might be inclined to request my termination / annihilation, because i have little faith in / love for the hindu gods.

This touches on the fate of the unsaved question, obviously.
I believe in YHWH Elohim, and i believe He (eventually anyway) annihilates what He hates and / or what has served its purpose.
This includes the purging and cleansing of hated aspects, as it is written, many will be saved through the fire, God being the Fire Himself.
But if God is a God who will punish by inflicting torment for no purpose other than to inflict torment, for making honest mistakes, whether He has a trunk or many arms or whatever, it would be morally incorrect i.m.o.

This is not the belief of mainstream Christianity though.

 

[Hieronymus]

According to your argument, there could be hundreds of competing gods out there, and if we don't pick the right one, we are doomed. But that's not how it works.

I think it actually is (partly) how it works.
Because there ARE some 70 (iirc) gods out there, among who the nations were divided. But YHWH chose Israel to be his people.
Meanwhile though, it seems the gods are teaming up in a one world religion, like before Babel, opposing YHWH Elohim.
(Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (*sons of God, not sons of Israel) and Psalms 82)

We are judged by whether or not we loved our Creator with all our hearts, minds, and souls, and loved our neighbors as ourselves.

If that's the case, i fear it's gonna be really quiet in God's Kingdom...
I hope i understand correctly that it's about faith in God.
The Lord's prayer. If you can honestly pray that, you have true faith in God.
The Lord's prayer is total submission to God's Will and total acknowledgement of God's Sovereignty and Holiness
...provided that you believe John 3:16 and repent, obviously...
(i.m.h.o.)

 

[Hieronymus]

This is not the belief of mainstream Christianity though.

Yeah, well, the broad road...

 

[bhsmte]

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." John 6:44

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." 1 John 2:19

I dont find scripture all that credible, as it relates to reality. One of the reasons, i am no longerba christian.

You can believe it though.

 

[dreadnought]

I think you are missing the point. Pascal’s wager is a flawed premise.

I'm not even familiar with Pascal's wager. I was just reacting to the op.

 

[dreadnought]

My Muslim & Hindu friends would say the exact same thing. They would of course be talking about entirely different creators. I would have to... pick... which one I believe in.

I'm not convinced we don't worship the same God.

 

[dreadnought]

I think it actually is (partly) how it works.
Because there ARE some 70 (iirc) gods out there, among who the nations were divided. But YHWH chose Israel to be his people.
Meanwhile though, it seems the gods are teaming up in a one world religion, like before Babel, opposing YHWH Elohim.
(Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (*sons of God, not sons of Israel) and Psalms 82)If that's the case, i fear it's gonna be really quiet in God's Kingdom...
I hope i understand correctly that it's about faith in God.
The Lord's prayer. If you can honestly pray that, you have true faith in God.
The Lord's prayer is total submission to God's Will and total acknowledgement of God's Sovereignty and Holiness
...provided that you believe John 3:16 and repent, obviously...
(i.m.h.o.)

You can define "god" as anyone called a god, or you can define "God" by the one who actually created us. There's only one of him.

 

[dreadnought]

I kind of feel that if you have never lived with killing another human being (or even over a hundred), then you have no concept of how much Jesus is the way.

I've never killed anyone, yet I know Jesus is the way. I don't know what I'd do without him.

 

[looking_for_answers_]

I'm not convinced we don't worship the same God.

Then use incompatable gods as examples.

For instance, Anthony Lewandowski believes that I need to worship the future AI godhead or fear punishment:
Inside the First Church of Artificial Intelligence | Backchannel

 

[looking_for_answers_]

Yeah, well, the broad road...

I resonate with what you wrote for what it's worth

 

[Hieronymus]

You can define "god" as anyone called a god, or you can define "God" by the one who actually created us. There's only one of him.

Read Psalms 82 and Deuteronomy 32:8-9
Of course these are "little g gods", created by God, often referred to as 'angels' in our language (although angel actually means messenger).
God is not alone in the unseen realm.
But just like humans, some of them think they know things better than God, and rebel against Him.
And just like with humans, God is apparently inclined to let them prove they know better than Him.
Obviously they fail, as do humans...

 

[Hieronymus]

I resonate with what you wrote for what it's worth

Good to hear that!
Sorry i reacted a little snarky.
Have been desperately struggling with the 'traditional' view for a long time...
Always a little emotionally charged subject, still..

 

[Chesterton]

There is the small case of you
1) Worshiping false idols - religions are really hot on this!
2) Preying to the wrong God
3) Worshiping in the wrong place

All these are crimes in most religions are they not?

But you indicated that it wasn't a false idol, and that it was the right God, the only God.

 

[dreadnought]

Then use incompatable gods as examples.

For instance, Anthony Lewandowski believes that I need to worship the future AI godhead or fear punishment:
Inside the First Church of Artificial Intelligence | Backchannel

There are certain qualities we attribute to God the Father. He is all-powerful, all-knowing, and motivated by love. When a person believes in such a being, loving him with all their hearts, minds, and souls, and loving their neighbors as themselves, then I have to suspect that they are worshiping the same God we worship, even if they give him another name. That isn't the same as carving a boat and calling it God.

 

[dreadnought]

Read Psalms 82 and Deuteronomy 32:8-9
Of course these are "little g gods", created by God, often referred to as 'angels' in our language (although angel actually means messenger).
God is not alone in the unseen realm.
But just like humans, some of them think they know things better than God, and rebel against Him.
And just like with humans, God is apparently inclined to let them prove they know better than Him.
Obviously they fail, as do humans...

I was thinking of ancient times when I believe men became rulers of nations (Egypt?) and called themselves gods.

 

[Rivga]

Oldest?
I'm not so sure about that.

Who would have know that the oldest of the main religions was actually right.

Clumsy use of "main" but I meant out of the currently practiced and main religions.

Hindu religion is widely believed to pre-date Judaism by around 1,000 years. Hindu scholars say much more and Judaism replies with the fact they just piped them at the post.
And again hard to tell as the evidence supports both religions changing significantly from there origin, which is heresy and something I just don't wish to get into now.

I'm not convinced we don't worship the same God.

I used a Hindu Gods as the religion is radically different from the God of the bible, I picked Ganesha specifically out of personal preference. I mean Ganesha is a God in his own right, move of immovable objects title is a poetic way of saying he is able to do anything (all powerful).

 

[Hieronymus]

I was thinking of ancient times when I believe men became rulers of nations (Egypt?) and called themselves gods.

Yeah, i suppose that's the 'de-mythologised' version which is preached the most in our age.
I don't think it's how it was originally written, intended and understood though.
I'm not an expert, and i have to learn these viewpoints from others too, but i think anyone could agree that there are a number of gods in the Bible, and YHWH chose Israel as his people.
This went beyond Israel with Jesus Christ.
We owe this to the rejection of God by the Judeans, as it is written.

Often though, the false idols are described as objects of stone and / or wood etcetera, but these objects were used to 'catch' the gods, or as a means of communication, as is still custom in various pagan religions and the occult.

 

[Hieronymus]

Clumsy use of "main" but I meant out of the currently practiced and main religions.

Hindu religion is widely believed to pre-date Judaism by around 1,000 years. Hindu scholars say much more and Judaism replies with the fact they just piped them at the post.
And again hard to tell as the evidence supports both religions changing significantly from there origin, which is heresy and something I just don't wish to get into now.

I.m.o. it's a matter of dating the oldest manuscripts of the Old Testament (Torah).
A.f.a.i.k. bits of Torah outdate the bits of Veda, but i'm not sure.
Likely, opinions among scholars vary too.

I used a Hindu Gods as the religion is radically different from the God of the bible, I picked Ganesha specifically out of personal preference. I mean Ganesha is a God in his own right, move of immovable objects title is a poetic way of saying he is able to do anything (all powerful).

I think your question boils down to the moral argument against eternal conscious torment for the unsaved (since this is a Christian forum) and tempting Christians to reply hypocritically.
Hence the many evasive replies..