Partial rapture

[Troy777]

Freeinchrist,

I don't believe in purgatory, or that we get to heaven based on our efforts or works.

There is no such thing as purgatory. We don't get to heaven based on our efforts or works, we get to heaven based on salvation. We can ESCAPE these things that are to pass(Luke 21.36), the Tribulation, HOUR of the trial (Rev. 3.10) itself, IF you keep the Word of His Patience and are watchful and prayerful, accounted worthy. Do you all Christians do this? Of course not. So what's the problem? Don't you believe God will reward those who allow His redemptive design to deliver them from sin, self, an supernatural? Or do you believe all Christians are like those in Revelation 20.4? Surely you don't believe that. 1st rapture takes place shortly after the 5th seal, and 7th trumpet rapture takes place the 7th trumpet.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Freeinchrist,


There is no such thing as purgatory. We don't get to heaven based on our efforts or works, we get to heaven based on salvation.
We can ESCAPE these things that are to pass(Luke 21.36), the Tribulation, HOUR of the trial (Rev. 3.10) itself, IF you keep the Word of His Patience and are watchful and prayerful, accounted worthy. Do you all Christians do this? Of course not.

All who are saved and are members of His church are worthy to escape. It is not based on our own personal worthiness - it is totally based on Christ's worthiness!

So what's the problem? Don't you believe God will reward those who allow His redemptive design to deliver them from sin, self, an supernatural? Or do you believe all Christians are like those in Revelation 20.4?

I am pretrib. So I believe that those who are on the thrones in Rev. 20 are the raptured church, and those who refused the mark, didn't worship the beast or his image are 'made alive ' at that time. They aren't raptured up to heaven.
Those who are in the outer darkness are the unsaved.

1st rapture takes place shortly after the 5th seal, and 7th trumpet rapture takes place the 7th trumpet.

I disagree.

 

[Troy777]

Freeinchrist,

All who are saved and are members of His church are worthy to escape. It is not based on our own personal worthiness - it is totally based on Christ's worthiness!

WHO IS ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE GREAT TRIBULATION

Luke 21.36 also proves that not the entire church but only a part of it will be raptured before the Tribulation. The accounts of Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are quite alike, except that Matthew stresses more the coming of Christ and the Tribulation while Luke focuses more on the destruction of Jerusalem and the Tribulation. Hence there is the famous question asked in Matthew (24.3), and there are also more parables recorded in Matthew’s account than in Luke’s. In 70 A.D. Jerusalem experi-enced a terrible destruction, and at the end she will experience a great tribulation. The record in Luke can be outlined as follows: 2 1.8-9 - the things before the end; 10-19 - believers will suffer; 20-28 - how Jerusalem will be destroyed (verse 28 seems to suggest that the saints will all pass through the Tribulation); 29-33 - a parable guaranteeing the certainty of these things to come; and 34-36 - Were it not for this passage, it might be inferred that the whole body of believers would surely be raptured after the Tribulation: yet verse 34 has a change in tone from the preceding verses, verse 35 shows that the things mentioned earlier concern the whole inhabited world, and verse 36 presents the condition for escaping the Great Tribulation - which is to watch and pray. How are believers to escape all these coming things and to stand before the Son of man? Naturally by being raptured. Death is not a blessing: we do not pray and expect death. The condition here for rapture is to watch and pray. Hence here, not all the regenerated may be raptured. Pray always. What to pray for? Pray that we may escape all these things which shall come to pass. “That ye may prevail” (or, “ye may be accounted worthy” AV), It is not a question of grace, but rather a matter of worthiness. How about worthiness? God cannot receive you to the place where you have no desire to go. Some people may consider heaven as too tasteless a place in which to live as may be indicated by these words: “Lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” (v.34), If a balloon is tied, it cannot ascend. In sum, Luke 21.36 shatters the arguments of both the first and second schools of interpretation. The second school may still raise other arguments, such as (1) that rapture is not dependent on conduct - yet in reply it should be asked whether anyone thinks a carnal believer lying on a bed of fornication will be raptured? Or (2) that the phrase “all these things” does not refer to the Great Tribulation but to the surfeiting, drunkenness, and cares of this life cited in verse 34. In reply, it should be noted that verse 36 reads, “all these things that shall come to pass - whereas “surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” pertain to the things which are present now. And therefore, “watch ye” means to not be deceived by such activities.

I am pretrib. So I believe that those who are on the thrones in Rev. 20 are the raptured church, and those who refused the mark, didn't worship the beast or his image are 'made alive ' at that time. They aren't raptured up to heaven.

ALL CHRISTIANS DO NOT POSSESS THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE 1ST RESURRECTION REIGNING WITH CHRIST 1000 YEARS, TIME OF RECOMPENSE

20.4-6 THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM

20.4 Three classes of people will reign with Christ:

(1) The overcomers will sit on thrones, and judgment will be given to them (20.4a). This shows that they have inherited the kingdom (see also Dan. 7.10, 18, 22-"Saints of the Most High").

(2) The martyrs throughout the 20 centuries ("them that had been beheaded"-20.4b). These are the souls under the alter as shown in the fifth seal (6.9f). It is for "the testimony of Jesus" that they are killed.

(3) The martyrs during the Great Tribulation. These are those who do not worship the beast nor his image, and upon whose foreheads and hands no mark of the beast is received (20.4c).

"They lived" – Let us notice two things:

(1) These people are not resurrected at the time of 20.4. Their resurrection is merely retraced here as an accomplished fact. John does not see them resurrected at that moment; he only acknowledges that they live.

(2) Those here who live include not only the resurrected but also those who are raptured alive; for we cannot assert that only those who are resurrected reign here with Christ; since even though the number of people who are raptured alive may not be great they nevertheless shall reign with Christ too.

20.5 "The first resurrection"-This does not necessarily mean that there is only one resurrection, nor does it denote that there are many resurrections. It simply signifies this as being the "best" resurrection.

The word "the" includes the two things mentioned in the last clause of 20.4:

(1) "Lived" and (2) "reigned": The best resurrection means to live and to reign. Such a resurrection is a reward, for there is a reigning with Christ for a thousand years as well as a being resurrected.

"The second death" of 20.6 is in contrast with "the first resurrection", because the latter means to enjoy glory while the former means to suffer eternally. Hence the first resurrection is none other than the time of recompense (Luke 14.14, 20.34-36).

What Paul says in Philippians 3.11 is not an expecting to be raised from the dead (for all the dead shall be resurrected), nor an anticipating the resurrection of the spirit (for the resurrection of the spirit is already an accomplished at the time of new birth). No, what Paul is looking forward to is the "out-resurrection" from among the dead, which is the "best" resurrection spoken of here in 20.5, even a reigning with the Lord.

Read again Philippians 1.23-25. There in that epistle’s first chapter Paul is saying he will live; he is not contemplating death. How, then, can he be talking about resurrection? He clearly states in Philippians 3.20,21 that he waits for the coming of the Lord. Consequently, what he anxiously hopes for is to reign with the Lord.

"The rest of the dead" naturally includes all the unsaved sinners. Their resurrection will come to pass a thousand years later.

20.6 "Blessed" should be translated literally as "happy"-Those who appear to be happy today may not be holy, while those who are holy can hardly be happy today.

The first resurrection is blessed in three ways"

(1) "Over these the second death hath no power"-The second death is the lake of fire. Those who have no part in the first resurrection may yet be hurt by the second death. Some Christians will be disciplined in the future (see Matt. 18.34,35) (like thrown into jail until fully repaid to a just God for not forgiving others). He who wrongs his brother will be punished by the Lord (1 Thess. 4.5,6). We believers are exhorted to fear Him who has authority to cast into hell (Greek, gehenna), thus implying that over some Christians hell still has its threat (Luke 12.4,5). If a branch does not abide in Christ, he, like a branch, is liable to be cast off, withered, cast into the fire and burned (John 15.6).

Some, though, may ask, Does not the Bible teach that once a person is saved he will never perish? Why then do you say here that Christians may appear as though to perish? This is due none other than to a misunderstanding of some Scripture verses such as the following:

"He shall never see death" (John 8.51,52) is actually "he shall not forever see death" in the original, and "he shall never taste death" is "he shall not forever taste death" in the original.

"They shall never perish" (John 10.28) is "they shall not forever perish" in the original.

"Shall never die" (John 11.25,26) is "shall not forever die" in the original.

(receives death according to what is due him)

(2) "They shall be priests of God and of Christ"-The significance of a priest is to draw near to God. This people shall be very close to God for they shall have a special relationship with Him and Christ. Today we are priests, therefore all may draw nigh to God. But in the millennial kingdom only those who have part in the first resurrection shall function as priests to God and to Christ.

Aaron functioned as a priest because his rod budded. The budded rod represents resurrection. Whoever is chosen priest is proven by (first) resurrection. When the children of Israel came out of Egypt they all were destined to be priests (Ex. 19.6). Due to their worshiping the golden calf, however, God later chose the family of Aaron to be priests.

"They shall be priests…of Christ", since at this time Christ shall receive worship as much as God himself is worshipped.

(3) "And shall reign with him a thousand years"-As a rule, in Old Testament times no king was able to be a priest, and no priest, a king. But here is a people who are both priests and kings. As priests, they draw near to God; as kings, they rule over the earth. Only those who have suffered are entitled to reign and enjoy glory with Christ.

Here we are told only the fact that they do reign, we are not informed as to how they reign. No doubt the reigning here is heavenly in nature.

Those who are in the outer darkness are the unsaved.

http://lampbroadcast.org/plets/ppdf1/OuterDkns.pdf OUTER DARKNESS

and,


ESCAPING THE HOUR OF TRIAL OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION


Revelation 3.10 “The hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world” - This is the Great Tribulation. This verse tells us that a certain class of people may escape the Great Tribulation, even those who keep the word of the patience of Christ. Instantly it tears apart the arguments of the second school of interpretation as well as those of the first. Although Philadelphia represents the true church in the dispensation of Grace, it is nonetheless only one of the seven local churches in Asia at that time. Thus it shows that only a relatively small number of people (one seventh) may be raptured before the Tribulation. Furthermore, pre-tribulation rapture is not based purely on our being born again as children of God, but is dependent on one other condition, which is, our keeping the word of the patience of Christ. Do all believers today keep the word of the patience of Christ? Obviously not. It is therefore evident that not the whole body of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation. The second school contends, however, that this passage of Scripture does not refer to pre-tribulation rapture, for it speaks of keeping - that God will “keep” them safely through the Great Tribulation: just as, for example, when an entire house is caught on fire, one room may be left untouched; or for example, when the land of Egypt came under the plague, the land of Goshen where the children of Israel dwelt in Egypt went unscathed (see Ex. 9.26, 10.23 ) . Such an explanation is erroneous because (1) the “keeping” in view here is not a keeping through but a keeping from. In the Greek text, after the word “keep” in this verse there is the word ek which means “out of’ (as in the word ekklesia which means “the called out ones”). Here, therefore, ek signifies a being kept out of the Tribulation. And (2) “Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial” (3.l0a) - As we have seen, the trial which is to come upon the whole world is the Great Tribulation; but notice that it is not a keeping from the trial but a keeping from the hour of the trial, In order to be kept out of the hour of trial, we must leave the world. There are only two ways for God to keep us out: death and rapture. And hence part of the living will be raptured before the Tribulation.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Where are you quoting all this stuff from?

 

[Troy777]

Freeinchrist,

Because you were so overassuming and confident of when you would be raptured, you will most definitely find yourself in Great Tribulation, and may find yourself, being so shocked and surprised, to weak to refuse the mark of the beast, and were not this person in Christ that you always thought. This is the real tangible spiritual danger you are faced with.

I. Reasons given by the first school - that is to say, by the adherents of a pre-tribulation rapture - are presented in the following paragraphs.

A. 1 Thessalonians 1.10 “The wrath to come” - This is the Great Tribulation. Since the Lord Jesus will deliver us from the wrath to come, we must be raptured before the Great Tribulation. Also, 1 Thessalonians 5.9 “For God appointed us not unto wrath” - Once again this “wrath” has reference to the Great Tribulation. Let me say, though, that such an interpretation of “wrath” here as being the Great Tribulation is incorrect. How do we know that this wrath must necessarily be the wrath in the Great Tribulation? And even if it were granted that it is, such an interpretation of this word “wrath” would still be unreasonable because the Great Tribulation, on the one hand, is God’s punishment and wrath coming upon the unbelievers, and on the other hand is Satan’s attack and wrath descending on the believers. When Satan assaults the believers, the latter enter into the experience of the Great Tribulation but do not come under the wrath of God.

B. Jeremiah 30.6-7 “The time of Jacob’s trouble” - The Great Tribulation is only for the Jews, not for the Gentiles or for the church. Since the church is not the Jews, we therefore will not go through the Great Tribulation, See also Daniel 12.1. If there were only these two passages in the entire Bible which speak of the Great Tribulation, then the Great Tribulation would indeed be exclusively for the Jews. But we can read other passages in the Bible, such as Revelation 3 which speaks of “the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth” (v.10). The prophecies of Jeremiah and Daniel were directed toward the Jews, and hence they used such words “Jacob” and “Thy people” quite logically.

C. Revelation 4.1-4 Interpreters of this first school consider Revelation 2 and 3 as depicting the sage of the church; 4.1 as referring to the rapture of the church; 4.4 (with the 24 elders) as representing the glorified church after the rapture; and chapters 5 and 6 as having reference to the beginning of the Great Tribulation. But 4.1 is not spoken to the whole church. It is only spoken to John. “Come up hither” is an accomplished fact in the personal experience of John on the isle of Patmos. Otherwise, Philip’s experience as recorded in Acts 8.29 might also be taken as signifying the rapture of the whole church. As regards the 24 elders, it is rather absurd to deem them as signifying the glorified church, for the following reasons:



(1) 24 is not the number of the church; only seven or multiples of seven are, such as the seven churches in Asia.

(2) Nowhere in the Scriptures does “elder” ever represent the church. There are elders in the church and among the Jews, but not all believers are elders. God first created the angels, then He chose the Jews, and finally gave grace to the church. How can the church bear the title of elders?

(3) In Revelation 4 and 5 we learn that the elders sit on thrones with crowns of gold on their heads, whereas Christ is standing there. Can the church receive glory before Christ is glorified? Thrones and crowns are symbols of kingship.

(4) The elders are clothed with white garments. Some suggest that these garments speak of Christ our righteousness for His blood has washed them white. Yet nowhere in the Scriptures is there mention made that the garments of the elders are washed with the blood. Our robes need to be washed with blood because we have sinned; but the 24 elders have never sinned.

(5) The elders never experience redemption. In chapter 4 we observe that they sing the song of creation. And we see in chapter 5 that though they sing the song of redemption, they sing not of themselves but of men who are purchased by the blood of the Lamb. “And madest them to be . ... ,,(v.10) - The word “them” here refers to the church. Now if it is the church who sings, would she use “them”?

(6) Revelation 4 deals with the universe and not with the church, the nations, or the Jews. And hence we may say that these are the elders of the universe, The church is not an elder of the universe.

(7) Revelation 5.8. The church cannot bring people’s prayers to God.

(8) Revelation 7.13 If John also represents the church, it would then be the church asking the church.

(9) John calls one of the elders “My lord” (7.14), thus indicating that his position is lower than the elders. If the 24 elders represent the church, then John who is among the first in the church, should be the elder of the elders.

(10) The number 24 should be taken literally, not symbolically. Since one of the elders speaks to John, how can one twenty-fourth of the church talk to John? The number is fixed, and hence the elders are fixed. These 24 elders are archangels who rule the universe. Even under Satan in his domain there are principalities and authorities.



D. 1 Thessalonians 4.16-17 Do not these verses speak of rapture? Obviously they do, yet they do not specify what time. They deal with the fact of rapture, not with the time of rapture. Thus, they can not be used to prove pre-tribulation rapture.

E. 1 Corinthians 15.50-52 Whether dead or living, all will be raptured. Yet, again, it presents the fact of rapture without specifying a time sequence that would indicate a pre-tribulation rapture. On the contrary, it can be used to prove a post-tribulation rapture. “At the last trump” is a descriptive phrase that is equal to the seventh trumpet cited in Revelation 11.15. Some people advance the theory that according to Roman custom the trumpets are sounded three times. But the Holy Spirit follows no Roman law.

F. Luke 21.36 The Lord distinctly promises that the church may escape the Great Tribulation and “stand before the Son of man” -This no doubt refers to rapture. Nevertheless, there is a condition involved. Not for all who are simply born again, but for those born-again ones who watch and pray. “That ye may prevail” - If you watch and pray, you may prevail. Hence the promise is given to those who do these things. Does everyone in the whole church watch and pray? Let us pay attention to this.

G. Revelation 3.10 This is reckoned as being the strongest argument, yet it too is a promise with a condition. It therefore cannot be taken as evidence for the pre-tribulation rapture of the entire church. What is meant by “the word of my patience”? Today people revile Him and curse Him, but the Lord neither punishes them nor smites them with lightning and thunder. Such is the patience of Christ in this age. Today we are patient together with Christ. We do not resist. But does every Christian keep the word of His patience in this manner? If so, the whole church would indeed be raptured. If this verse can be used indiscriminately to prove the rapture of the whole church before the Great Tribulation, then people can with equal justification forget the condition “whosoever believeth on him” and erroneously claim that all men are saved. Furthermore, the promise of the Lord here is addressed to the church in Philadelphia, not to the whole church. If the church in Philadelphia can represent the whole church, then we may surmise that the entire church will be raptured before the Great Tribulation. Yet at that time there were actually these seven churches in Asia Minor, and the promise of the Lord was given to but one of these seven. Accordingly, the church in Philadelphia cannot represent the complete church; or else the overcomers in the other six churches mentioned will not be raptured.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ESCAPING THE HOUR OF TRIAL OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION


Revelation 3.10 “The hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world” - This is the Great Tribulation. This verse tells us that a certain class of people may escape the Great Tribulation, even those who keep the word of the patience of Christ. Instantly it tears apart the arguments of the second school of interpretation as well as those of the first. Although Philadelphia represents the true church in the dispensation of Grace, it is nonetheless only one of the seven local churches in Asia at that time. Thus it shows that only a relatively small number of people (one seventh) may be raptured before the Tribulation. Furthermore, pre-tribulation rapture is not based purely on our being born again as children of God, but is dependent on one other condition, which is, our keeping the word of the patience of Christ. Do all believers today keep the word of the patience of Christ? Obviously not. It is therefore evident that not the whole body of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation.

I believe your reasoning (or who you are quoting) is faulty here. One, here are overcomers out of every church. Two, you are adding works with this:"Furthermore, pre-tribulation rapture is not based purely on our being born again as children of God, but is dependent on one other condition, which is, our keeping the word of the patience of Christ."
Being born again is all that matters.

Sorry, Troy, but i have to write you off. I'll stick with scripture.

 

[Troy777]

Freeinchrist,

here are overcomers out of every church. Two, you are adding works with thisBeing born again is all that matters.

You are confusing the OT concept of works (fulfilling the law) with abiding in God and doing his will (spiritual works). If you do this you read the Bible with a darkened mind. It's a free country, you can believe what you want the common wide path belief which is a legalization. There is such a thing as co-death in addition to substitutory death. In each saved church there are those that stand ready to be received as overcomers. I Corinthians 15.23, say some, only mentions “they that are Christ’s” and that nothing is said about works. But let us be aware that this verse does not speak of rapture, it speaks of resurrection. Others object that rapture is part of redemption, that since redemption is according to grace, rapture cannot be based on the concept of worthiness. In reply, it needs to be pointed out that while the act of changing (see 1 Cor. 15.51-52) is indeed according to grace, the act of being taken (rapture) is according to works.

 

[Troy777]

Those who keep the word of His patience (Rev. 3.10) may escape the HOUR of trial of Great Tribulation that is these things that are to come upon the whole world (Luke 21.36). Of courae, who can say, all Christians keep the word of His patience and stay watchful and prayerful.

 

[GodsWatchman]

A. 1 Thessalonians 1.10 “The wrath to come” - This is the Great Tribulation. Since the Lord Jesus will deliver us from the wrath to come, we must be raptured before the Great Tribulation.

Don't you understand that Revelations is broken into:

a) The 'Tribulation' which is Satans rule - This is to be "tried" by fire and is what all Christians will go through to "try" them.

...then

b) ..for those who did NOT overcome - Its the Wrath of God.

You have mixed them into one thing. Two different events.

 

[Troy777]

GodsWatchman,

Don't you understand that Revelations is broken into:a) The 'Tribulation' which is Satans rule - This is to be "tried" by fire and is what all Christians will go through to "try" them...then b) ..for those who did NOT overcome - Its the Wrath of God. You have mixed them into one thing. Two different events.

I haven't mixed anything. There is still just one event, Tribulation. Satan will pick on Christians. That is Satan's continuing wrath. There is also God's wrath that exists even today, not just in all parts of Tribulation.

It is overassuming to say ALL Christians. You are confusing those who do not overcome with the unregnerated. The Bible is talking to us Christians not the unregenerated. The Bible is advising us to overcome. The Bible is not saying to unrengenerated to overcome, for they can't anyway, they do not have the Spirit. Only Christians can overcome because they have the Spirit, but many Christians, even though they have the Spirit, still do not overcome while in this body of flesh. So they will receive discipline either in Tribulation or "outer darkness" out of the reign of the rewards of the kingdom. They do not receive the wrath of God unto perdition. A Christian is saved and receives no such wrath of hell.

Christians are comprised of overcomers and non-overcomers, spiritual and carnal, 1st resurrection and general resurrection, matured and unmatured, Saints Most High and Saints, rewards and discipline.

The message is clear, God wants all Christians to overcome, not remaining in just substitory death but co-death also (sometimes referred to as Indentification).