Partial preterest

Gal328 said:

Back up your view.


Tell me why you believe in this view. I welcome it.

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I would think one has to be either Full Preterist or Full Futurists. According to the Orthodox Jews, their own Messiah will accomplish all things at one time. The PP view has always confused me and I suppose it depends on what "ALL Things" implies as Jesus and Peter were talking to the Jews here I think but not sure.

http://www.christianforums.com/t4437955-lazarus-and-the-rich-man.html

Luke 21:22 "For these are the Days of Vengeance, that ALL Things which are Written may be Fulfilled.

1 Peter 4:7 And of ALL things the end hath come nigh; be sober-minded, then, and watch unto the prayers,

Gal328 said:

Back up your view..

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Fulfilled prophecy. We don't have to deny that stuff that happened actually happened, or have to "explain" why it happened but it didn't really count.

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LittleLambofJesus said:

I would think one has to be either Full Preterist or Full Futurists.

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That denies the reality that some prophecies have been fulfilled (which futurists deny) and that some have not (which full preterists deny).

According to the Orthodox Jews, their own Messiah will accomplish all things at one time.

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According to Orthodox Jews, Messiah hasn't come yet.

Gal328 said:

Back up your view.


Tell me why you believe in this view. I welcome it.

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I found this theology to be very weak yet tricky.

They rely on verses that state "Unless this generation passes away ..." and then count 30 or so years from the time Christ said that, since generation is about 30-40 years.

But generation is genea (Strong's 1074) and is addressed primarily to the Pharisees.
And genea 1074 also means a type or a kind of people ...
LK 16:8 "The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind {genea 1074} than are the people of the light ...

And besides, in one instance Christ included the Pharisees and their forefathers as "this genea", hence this kind, types of people.

And then he said that this genea (of Pharisees) will not pass away until all these things will accomplish.

And we still see these Pharisees today - Hasidic Jews.

Tricky theology, but the key to refute it is in genea.

Thanks,
Ed

LittleLambofJesus said:

I would think one has to be either Full Preterist or Full Futurists. According to the Orthodox Jews, their own Messiah will accomplish all things at one time. The PP view has always confused me and I suppose it depends on what "ALL Things" implies as Jesus and Peter were talking to the Jews here I think but not sure.

http://www.christianforums.com/t4437955-lazarus-and-the-rich-man.html

Luke 21:22 "For these are the Days of Vengeance, that ALL Things which are Written may be Fulfilled.

1 Peter 4:7 And of ALL things the end hath come nigh; be sober-minded, then, and watch unto the prayers,

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To take things out of context would make most written works nonsensicle. I cannot simply base my theology on "all things" out of context. One may interprete it as a necessary step. Without the Jewish revolt there would be no time of the Gentiles and so on. Compare "I count to 3 so that 10 may be reached" . 10 is not reached but 3 is necessary.
So I look at the historical context of 70 AD. Something very signicant happened. Does it seem reseasonable to accept one version of the ambiguity in ignorance of the vast evidence that 70 AD was the time of Jacob's trouble? I do not suggest that the second coming has taken place, so I am quite comfortable in being a partial preterist.

Acts6:5 said:

We rely on a lot of verses, as do futurists. Preterism would exist even without the “generation” passages.

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Of course it would exist.
But without the "generation" verses it would become clearer to those who are not certain.

But the partial preterists and preterists that are set in their ways would certainly continue to exist.

(By the way, I'm not saying they are not believers even though preterism is not allowed at CF).

And to the MODS, we are not discussing preterism, but partial preterism.

Acts6:5 said:

We base our interpretation of genea on what we feel is the context of each individual instance in which it is used. ...

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Acts6:5 said:

.....
We prets believe the group of Pharisees Jesus was speaking to in the temple was the generation in question. Simple.

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I know.

Yet when Christ addressed both the current Pharisees and their forefathers as "generation", and when "genea" is also presented in a bigger context as children of light as compared to children of darkness, the context of generation takes a whole new meaning as was uttered by Christ.

Acts6:5 said:

Hardly. Preterist theology is no more “tricky” or “weak” then Futurism is. If you don’t agree with Preterism that’s fine, but to think that genea is some sort of magic bullet that refutes preterism just shows me that you don’t know much about the subject.

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Acts6:5 said:

In Christ,

Acts6:5

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Fine. Yet you would agree that genea is considered to be one of the key to preterism/partial preterism.
And the "soon" verses is another key.
Wouldn't you agree?
(I'll address that if you present them).

Thanks,
Ed

I believe a lot of the prophecies (like the abomination of desolation) and what not took place at 70 AD. But I also believe that Christ is yet to return and that God will fulfill His promises to Israel

Fine. Yet you would agree that genea is considered to be one of the key to preterism/partial preterism.
And the "soon" verses is another key.
Wouldn't you agree?
(I'll address that if you present them).

Thanks,
Ed

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"Genea" is NOT key to preterism/partial preterism. It is THIS genea, however, that is. This is a demonstrative pronoun used to differentiate this from that. It is a pointer. WHENEVER the expression "THIS generation" is used elsewhere (besides Matthew 24:34) in the NT Scriptures, it ALWAYS means those contemporaneous to the speaker or writer. It is the futurist who is forced to take an unusual and isolated meaning for this expression because he must in order to support his eschatological viewpoints. It is the futurist who must defend himself--not the preterist.

There are not merely a few time references in the Bible upon which preterism bases its views, but many--over 100! In these references are time indicators that futurists must address but which most do not. Those who do at least deal with them, deal with them by redefining them--simple, common, everyday words such as "near," "at hand," "about to," "shortly," "quickly," "soon," etc. It is interesting that a comparison between the uses of these words in noneschatological and eschatological uses reveals this: futurists have NO problems taking these words literally in the noneschatolgocal contexts but stumble over them in eschatological contexts! The same words given different nuances because of one's theology!

These are words no one stumbles over in his day-to-day life. They present problems because to take them in their normal sense violates the doctrine of future things.

It is not the preterist who must defend himself--it is the futurist. Preterists are falsely accused of basing their entire system of belief on Matthew 24:34, yet futurists attempt to reason away all time references with a desperate appeal to 2 Peter 3:8.

Will just one futurist (and I've tried this before to no avail) tell me, without an unjustified appeal to 2 Peter 3:8 what these verses mean IN THEIR CONTEXTS?

"The coming of the Lord is AT HAND." (James 5:8)
"The end of all things is AT HAND." (1 Peter 4:7)

Will anyone give a satisfactory explanation for Jesus' saying that some of those contemporaneous to Him would not die before THEY saw Him coming in His kingdom (Matthew 16)? Will someone dare to explain what Jesus meant when He clearly told Caiaphas that he himself and the other rulers of the temple would SEE Him sitting at the right hand of Power and COMING on the clouds? (Matthew 26:64).

What did Jesus mean when He clearly told His disciples standing right there in front of them--"When YOU see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet . . . ?" Of how many abominations of desolation did Daniel speak?

I could go on and on. The proofs for preterism are much, much more than time reference words and genea of Matthew 24:34. Those who think they are, do not understand it!

In Christ, Parousia (a former pre-trib., pre-mil. dispensationalist)

Parousia said:

...
Will just one futurist (and I've tried this before to no avail) tell me, without an unjustified appeal to 2 Peter 3:8 what these verses mean IN THEIR CONTEXTS?

"The coming of the Lord is AT HAND." (James 5:8)
"The end of all things is AT HAND." (1 Peter 4:7)

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1PE 4:7 The end of all things is near.

JAS 5:7 Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord's coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains. 8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near. 9 Don't grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

"At hand" or "near" is eggizö (Strong's 1448).

It indicates a distance (like from point A to point B).

When we see a statement where it states that the Lord is coming soon, "soon" means quickly, like suddenly.

So, "at hand" or "near" is like he is standing 50 feet away, a distance away.

And then he will come "soon", which means "quickly", or "suddenly, rapidly".

Verse 9 (above) confirms that the Judge is standing at the door.

He is near (at hand) and then he will come quickly, suddenly.

Parousia said:

... Will anyone give a satisfactory explanation for Jesus' saying that some of those contemporaneous to Him would not die before THEY saw Him coming in His kingdom (Matthew 16)?)

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MT 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

And right at the next verse (17:1) we see that just after 6 days from that statement transfiguration took place where Christ appeared transfigured in the context of the Kingdom with Moses and Elijah (17:1-5).

Parousia said:

... Will someone dare to explain what Jesus meant when He clearly told Caiaphas that he himself and the other rulers of the temple would SEE Him sitting at the right hand of Power and COMING on the clouds? (Matthew 26:64).)

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This is what he said ...
MT 26:64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

And in the future EVERY eye will see him, ... in the future ...

REV 1:7 Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.
So shall it be! Amen.

A friendly reminder ... we cannot debate full preterism, in other words, we cannot debate whether Christ came already ... (against CF rules).

The MODS will perk their ears.

Parousia said:

... What did Jesus mean when He clearly told His disciples standing right there in front of them--"When YOU see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet . . . ?" Of how many abominations of desolation did Daniel speak?

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The same way he addressed them "YOU" when telling them that he'll be with them till the end of age ...

MT 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in n the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Parousia said:

... I could go on and on. The proofs for preterism are much, much more than time reference words and genea of Matthew 24:34. Those who think they are, do not understand it!

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Again ... we cannot discuss Full Preterism (that Christ came already) at these Forums.

Parousia said:

... In Christ, Parousia (a former pre-trib., pre-mil. dispensationalist)

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Thanks,
Ed

Will anyone give a satisfactory explanation for Jesus' saying that some of those contemporaneous to Him would not die before THEY saw Him coming in His kingdom (Matthew 16)? Will someone dare to explain what Jesus meant when He clearly told Caiaphas that he himself and the other rulers of the temple would SEE Him sitting at the right hand of Power and COMING on the clouds? (Matthew 26:64).

Ever wonder about the transfiguration and some did witness Him in His kingdom...pax..Kim

Gal328 said:

Could you tell me, what you believe has been fulfilled,and what has yet to be fulfilled, Even if its just a brief recap.

It will be appreciated, God Bless.

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Sure thing. The age as in end of "the age" or "end times" does not necessarily apply to we gentiles in all cases. The book of Daniel for example is refered to as the "end times" . However I believe it was the end times for the special relationship of God and Jews. There was no way for God to have a relationship with peoples without the law prior to Christ. The Jews had the law and thus could be justified. Now a Jew (defined here as a practitioner of Judasim) cannot find God throught the law. Such an individual must go through Christ as all must.
All one needs to do is understand that the end time of Danial was for Daniel's people or Jews.

Daniel 12

1: "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time; but at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book.


7: The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven; and I heard him swear by him who lives for ever that it would be for a time, two times, and half a time; and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be accomplished.

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The careless or manipulated interpretation of applying this to the "tribulation" in a time such as ours and of Jesus arriving at the end of the "tribulation" described here is simply false. How can it be that the holy people will be shattered at the end of the tribulation? Is that not the final victory? Why does it mention only a single nation if the tribulation applies to all peoples of the earth? Why would I ignore an account of such an event in 70 AD that actually fits? I am sure most people who consider Daniel as applying to our end time have not read Josephus or Maccabees for example. Perhaps they have only read such accounts from Scofield and Hal Linsey.

I think there is a good deal of confusion between the events of Christ's first coming and that of the second.

HisKid1973 said:

Will anyone give a satisfactory explanation for Jesus' saying that some of those contemporaneous to Him would not die before THEY saw Him coming in His kingdom (Matthew 16)? Will someone dare to explain what Jesus meant when He clearly told Caiaphas that he himself and the other rulers of the temple would SEE Him sitting at the right hand of Power and COMING on the clouds? (Matthew 26:64).

Ever wonder about the transfiguration and some did witness Him in His kingdom...pax..Kim

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Of course: those evil ones will see Him at the right hand of the Father, at judgment.

But I think His point is, the next time he will not be in flesh to be abused, but will be riegning in His glory.

Maybe, when He rides out of Heaven on His white horse even the dead will witness the power unleashed. Guess we'll know when it happens.

In Christ,
Tim

Edial said:

I found this theology to be very weak yet tricky.

They rely on verses that state "Unless this generation passes away ..." and then count 30 or so years from the time Christ said that, since generation is about 30-40 years.

But generation is genea (Strong's 1074) and is addressed primarily to the Pharisees.
And genea 1074 also means a type or a kind of people ...
LK 16:8 "The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind {genea 1074} than are the people of the light ...

And besides, in one instance Christ included the Pharisees and their forefathers as "this genea", hence this kind, types of people.

And then he said that this genea (of Pharisees) will not pass away until all these things will accomplish.

And we still see these Pharisees today - Hasidic Jews.

Tricky theology, but the key to refute it is in genea.

Thanks,
Ed

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I agree with you Edial,
What I find so obtuse about the preterist theory is that they insist that Jesus, meant that, that generation standing in front of Him would not die before He returned.
Matthew 24: 34. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
That theory is simply a dim witted notion at best because Jesus, said that He did not know when He would return.
Mark 13: 32. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Matt 24: 37. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Jesus, could not say that he would return at a specific time within a certain generation but only at the near end of the generation of man and that would be the only interpretation as to what He meant in context with other verses.
If they look back, as they do, they will get caught out!
PC

Prophecy Countdown said:

That theory is simply a dim witted notion at best because Jesus, said that He did not know when He would return.
Mark 13: 32. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

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You can know the generation in which these things will place without knowing the day or hour. Simple.

Prophecy Countdown said:

Jesus, could not say that he would return at a specific time within a certain generation but only at the near end of the generation of man and that would be the only interpretation as to what He meant in context with other verses.

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Jesus could say he would return within His generation without knowing "the day or the hour" of that return. During his earthly ministry, He could be specific concerning the generation but not the day or the hour.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Acts6:5 said:

You can know the generation in which these things will place without knowing the day or hour. Simple.


Jesus could say he would return within His generation without knowing "the day or the hour" of that return. During his earthly ministry, He could be specific concerning the generation but not the day or the hour.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

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Acts 6:5, that is an inadequate answer, why do you not read and understand Mark13: 33. Where Jesus, is speaking of the TIME of His second advent!
Jesus is talking about THE TIME OF HIS SECOND ADVENT not just the hour or day.
Mark 13: 33. “Take heed, watch and pray; for YOU DO NOT KNOW WHEN THE TIME IS.


Jesus, could not say that he would return at a specific time within a certain generation but only at the near end of the generation of sinful man and most know that that occurs at the voice of seventh trumpet, yet to come at the end of the yet tribulation, lasting no more than 1335 days, see Dan 12: 12.

1 Cor 15: 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Knowing that we are still mortal and still see death, sin, wars.
That simple fact tells me that Jesus, has yet to return.
That is why I say when Jesus, returns preterists, will be caught out looking backwards, which is their want.

HisKid1973 said:

Will anyone give a satisfactory explanation for Jesus' saying that some of those contemporaneous to Him would not die before THEY saw Him coming in His kingdom (Matthew 16)? Will someone dare to explain what Jesus meant when He clearly told Caiaphas that he himself and the other rulers of the temple would SEE Him sitting at the right hand of Power and COMING on the clouds? (Matthew 26:64).

Ever wonder about the transfiguration and some did witness Him in His kingdom...pax..Kim

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Jesus is talking about THE TIME OF HIS SECOND ADVENT .

Mark 13: 33. “Take heed, watch and pray; for YOU DO NOT KNOW WHEN THE TIME IS.
So Jesus, could not say that He would return within this or that specific generation’s time.
The only way He could say it without contradicting Himself is to mean the generation of mortal men, and we are still mortal and sin still prevails and death is rampant. That is why the promise of 1 Cor 15: 52 – 58 has not and did not occur in 70AD as preterists claim.

I say the above about Jesus not being able to pinpoint His return for good and sound biblical reasons. It was Jesus, Himself that said that no sign would be given that generation.
Mark 8: 12. And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall NO SIGN BE GIVEN UNTO THIS GENERATION.

Luke 11: 50. That the blood OF ALL THE PROPHETS, which was SHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, may be required of THIS GENERATION;
Was that generation that Jesus, spoke around when all the prophets were killed in the past generations? Of course not.
So We must see that Jesus, was speaking of the generation of evil mortal men throughout history and including the future where we see in Rev 11: the two witnesses are to be killed in Jerusalem.

Luke 11: 51From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
It is when Jesus, takes back the kingdom of Earth, that the generation of mortal men will be held to account.

As to your second question HisKid1973, quote. “Will someone dare to explain what Jesus meant when He clearly told Caiaphas that he himself and the other rulers of the temple would SEE Him sitting at the right hand of Power and COMING on the clouds? (Matthew 26:64).” Unquote.

This is not a challenge or ‘daring’ in the sense of the word because the answer is found in the timing of this event.
The righteous will rejoice.
Matthew 26: 64. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.

1 Thessalonians 4: 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The wicked will mourn.
Matthew 24: 30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH MOURN, and THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

All the generation of mortal men will either rejoice or mourn the second advent of the Christ.