Part-time Pastor issue....doing the bare minimum?

[seeker2122]

Before I say anything else, I want to make clear I care about and love my part-time Pastor. I do want him to succeed, do well,
be healthy, be respected, and treated with love. But here is the questions I have.

He's not a seasoned pastor/veteran. He's in his early 40s, this is his first pastoral gig, but he has experience in leading worship
and obviously having his MDiv from seminary.

His sermons are not "inspirational" but they do have its purposes in that he gives good historical and contextual information about the Scriptures.
He doesn't use any personal anecdotes that reflects or shares the works of God in his life. So he does lack that sort of inspirational content
and think of him more like a "bookworm" of the Bible. His sermons are more like lectures and seminars of bible study than say motivational/inspirational
sermons. Of course there is nothing wrong with different styles of sermons. They all have their usefulness. Sometimes too much topical sermons without
much biblical content is poor and the flipside, only giving historical/contextual info and exposition of the text but not imparting any inspiration or
revelatory transformation can become very dull and mundane.

His personality is also not the kind of pastor who greets people, initiates anyone, and in curious or inquisitive. In fact, he's the opposite. He keeps to himself,
comes to church to give the sermon and leaves with very little interaction with anyone. There is no "shepherding" or "pastoral care" per se. But then again,
he's also a "part-time" position so some might say "what do you expect from a part-time salary?" Of course it doesn't give him the license to be lazy
and uninvolved with his ministry. But he doesn't seem to do or has any interest to do anything more than his requirements which is just to prepare a sermon
each sunday, attend pastoral staff meetings and functions. That's it.

Now, I still love this guy. I care about him. I want to befriend him, get to know him more, and encourage him, but he's the pastor and I'm just a congregant.
How do we tell a pastor that maybe he's not really a good pastor but he's a good biblical scholar? Do we just tell him openly and honestly that he's just
not a good pastor and we have to let him go?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

He has some pros and some cons, IMO.

Pros: Very Biblically saturated.
Cons: Is not acting as a Shepherd.

We all have our own unique gifts. If your pastor was more social and more shepherd-like, he would be perfect, IMO. But that is oftentimes not how reality works. My guess is that if you see this, then the elders see this, and I would trust their judgment.

 

[Paidiske]

Hmm. It's hard to know what just from what you've posted here where the problem actually is. I would guess - and it is a guess - that it's a bit on both sides. That is, he probably has some growing to do, and the congregation probably needs to adjust their expectations (particularly given the part-time thing).

Frankly, he sounds like he's very introverted. Introverts can make good ministers, but our style tends to be different. More one-on-one, less big gatherings. As an introvert I found I needed to adjust the way I worked because people sometimes felt I was distant or uninterested, but it was more that my preferred way of interacting wasn't so visible. Some constructive feedback to him might be helpful here, that people are feeling neglected.

It also depends what fraction of part-time we're talking. On, say, three days a week, that's enough time to prepare and take services, and deal with absolutely essential administration, and any crises. That's about it. If you want more than that, including more pastoral conversations, you need to fund more time.

If I were you I'd ask to meet with him. Go with a list of the things you'd like him to know you're not happy with, but offer them in a way that's, "Hey, I really care about and want to support you growing in this role, here are some things I don't know if I'm right to be concerned about, how do you see them?" And really listen to what he says in reply. (What I'm saying is, let it be a discussion not an attack or an ambush). And be prepared to adjust your own thinking or expectations.

Mismatch between what a congregation expects and what a minister can deliver can be incredibly stressful and even distressing to a minister. We hate to feel that we're failing people, not caring for them, or letting them down, and it can eat away at you. So go gently.

 

[seeker2122]

Hmm. It's hard to know what just from what you've posted here where the problem actually is. I would guess - and it is a guess - that it's a bit on both sides. That is, he probably has some growing to do, and the congregation probably needs to adjust their expectations (particularly given the part-time thing).

Frankly, he sounds like he's very introverted. Introverts can make good ministers, but our style tends to be different. More one-on-one, less big gatherings. As an introvert I found I needed to adjust the way I worked because people sometimes felt I was distant or uninterested, but it was more that my preferred way of interacting wasn't so visible. Some constructive feedback to him might be helpful here, that people are feeling neglected.

It also depends what fraction of part-time we're talking. On, say, three days a week, that's enough time to prepare and take services, and deal with absolutely essential administration, and any crises. That's about it. If you want more than that, including more pastoral conversations, you need to fund more time.

If I were you I'd ask to meet with him. Go with a list of the things you'd like him to know you're not happy with, but offer them in a way that's, "Hey, I really care about and want to support you growing in this role, here are some things I don't know if I'm right to be concerned about, how do you see them?" And really listen to what he says in reply. (What I'm saying is, let it be a discussion not an attack or an ambush). And be prepared to adjust your own thinking or expectations.

Mismatch between what a congregation expects and what a minister can deliver can be incredibly stressful and even distressing to a minister. We hate to feel that we're failing people, not caring for them, or letting them down, and it can eat away at you. So go gently.

Thanks for your feedback. Yes, he works full-time during weekdays so he really only works on his sermon on Saturday (day before Sunday).
I try to talk to him, but he's often busy and disappears quite quickly. His personality is the kind that doesn't show a lot of passion or emotions.
He seems to just carry on his business and deliver sermons but you never really see him moved, cry, show any emotion, but once in a while he'll crack some inside humor that 90% of the congregation can't relate to. He does seem to be quite innocent in terms of needing seasoning as a pastor. He's not intentionally being cold but he comes off that way and I think he doesn't really realize or care that he's not engaging with anyone and reaching out or initiating anyone. There ZERO one on one stuff. But I do think if we could help him feel more comfortable, engage with him, welcome him, and basically reverse pastor to him....he can open up but it seems that the congregation will need to pastor him while he just delivers the sermon. It's almost a "cute cluelessness" he carries but of course it's not something I praise because the congregants are suffering and he doesn't seem to know or have any care.

 

[Soyeong]

Before I say anything else, I want to make clear I care about and love my part-time Pastor. I do want him to succeed, do well,
be healthy, be respected, and treated with love. But here is the questions I have.

He's not a seasoned pastor/veteran. He's in his early 40s, this is his first pastoral gig, but he has experience in leading worship
and obviously having his MDiv from seminary.

His sermons are not "inspirational" but they do have its purposes in that he gives good historical and contextual information about the Scriptures.
He doesn't use any personal anecdotes that reflects or shares the works of God in his life. So he does lack that sort of inspirational content
and think of him more like a "bookworm" of the Bible. His sermons are more like lectures and seminars of bible study than say motivational/inspirational
sermons. Of course there is nothing wrong with different styles of sermons. They all have their usefulness. Sometimes too much topical sermons without
much biblical content is poor and the flipside, only giving historical/contextual info and exposition of the text but not imparting any inspiration or
revelatory transformation can become very dull and mundane.

His personality is also not the kind of pastor who greets people, initiates anyone, and in curious or inquisitive. In fact, he's the opposite. He keeps to himself,
comes to church to give the sermon and leaves with very little interaction with anyone. There is no "shepherding" or "pastoral care" per se. But then again,
he's also a "part-time" position so some might say "what do you expect from a part-time salary?" Of course it doesn't give him the license to be lazy
and uninvolved with his ministry. But he doesn't seem to do or has any interest to do anything more than his requirements which is just to prepare a sermon
each sunday, attend pastoral staff meetings and functions. That's it.

Now, I still love this guy. I care about him. I want to befriend him, get to know him more, and encourage him, but he's the pastor and I'm just a congregant.
How do we tell a pastor that maybe he's not really a good pastor but he's a good biblical scholar? Do we just tell him openly and honestly that he's just
not a good pastor and we have to let him go?

It would be reasonable to let someone go for doing less than the minimum, but someone doing the minimum should be sufficient to keep their job. If you are expecting someone to do more than the minimum in order to keep their job, then you should raise the minimum. I don’t think that it is fair to someone to let them go for not doing certain things without informing them that you are expecting them to do those things and giving them the chance to make changes. I think it would be good to sit down to have a discussion with him were you say something along the line lines of that you like that his style of sermons, etc., but for this position you are looking for someone who also does inspirational sermons, who is involved with the community, etc., so is he willing to take steps towards making those changes? If he is willing, then discuss what those steps would look like, if not, then inform him that you are wanting him to stay on until you can find a replacement who will do those things.

 

[seeking.IAM]

...His sermons are not "inspirational" but they do have its purposes in that he gives good historical and contextual information about the Scriptures.
He doesn't use any personal anecdotes that reflects or shares the works of God in his life. So he does lack that sort of inspirational content
and think of him more like a "bookworm" of the Bible. His sermons are more like lectures and seminars of bible study than say motivational/inspirational...

This sounds like a matter of personal preference. Some would prefer sermons that make them think; others sermons that make them feel. I'm all about the former, and don't really care so much about someone's personal anecdotes they presume will inspire me. Perhaps inspiration comes from different routes for different people. It also sounds as if the pastor may be doing lectionary-based sermons rather than topical sermons of his own choosing (also a style I prefer).

I am curious how much this pastor is paid for effort given? Are you getting what you are paying for? If the pastor doesn't have a fair wage, he has to devote his energy to other means of support. And beyond that he has a life. So how much can he realistically be expected to do? And what is church leadership expecting of him as communicated at hiring?

 

[seeker2122]

It would be reasonable to let someone go for doing less than the minimum, but someone doing the minimum should be sufficient to keep their job. If you are expecting someone to do more than the minimum in order to keep their job, then you should raise the minimum. I don’t think that it is fair to someone to let them go for not doing certain things without informing them that you are expecting them to do those things and giving them the chance to make changes. I think it would be good to sit down to have a discussion with him were you say something along the line lines of that you like that his style of sermons, etc., but for this position you are looking for someone who also does inspirational sermons, who is involved with the community, etc., so is he willing to take steps towards making those changes? If he is willing, then discuss what those steps would look like, if not, then inform him that you are wanting him to stay on until you can find a replacement who will do those things.

Yes I agree. The sad reality of economics is that we don't all have enough money to pay full-time salary. I also think, what exactly does the church expect him to do if he's getting paid part-time and has to work full time job during the week? He obviously is not able to fully devote his time to the church and the members thus, we are suffering and lacking shepherding. Many members feel they are spiritually dying and planning to leave.
If the church could afford to pay him well, so that he can quit working his weekday job and fully devote time to ministry, we would be better off but it is hard to expect a part-time pastor to fulfill pastoral duties which is a 365/24/7 occupation/calling. There is no such thing really as a part time pastor. That's like having a part-time surgeon or something like that lol. You would not want your surgeon only spending 1 or 2 days of the week working on his craft lol.

 

[seeker2122]

This sounds like a matter of personal preference. Some would prefer sermons that make them think; others sermons that make them feel. I'm all about the former, and don't really care so much about someone's personal anecdotes they presume will inspire me. Perhaps inspiration comes from different routes for different people. It also sounds as if the pastor may be doing lectionary-based sermons rather than topical sermons of his own choosing (also a style I prefer).

I am curious how much this pastor is paid for effort given? Are you getting what you are paying for? If the pastor doesn't have a fair wage, he has to devote his energy to other means of support. And beyond that he has a life. So how much can he realistically be expected to do? And what is church leadership expecting of him as communicated at hiring?

Yup exactly what I said.

The biggest difference is that the previous pastor was also part time, but he devoted a lot of time and attention to the members. He calls them, he spends time with them, one on one, he talks to them, prays to them, but the new pastor that replaced him (also part time) only preaches on sundays and other than that has zero interaction with the members. It's a drastic 180 degree change and maybe it didn't help that the previous pastor was superman and the new one is just a man, so people can start comparing and pointing only the flaws and lack.

 

[Paidiske]

So let me get this straight...

He works five days a week in another job, prepares on Saturdays and takes services on Sundays?

It's not reasonable to expect anything more. Everyone needs rest, time with their family (or leisure time if they don't have a family), and so on. Nobody can work seven days a week without a break, and have that be sustainable. I don't know how your previous pastor managed, but I would guess he worked less than full time at his other job.

I think your church needs to rethink its model.

 

[The Liturgist]

Hmm. It's hard to know what just from what you've posted here where the problem actually is. I would guess - and it is a guess - that it's a bit on both sides. That is, he probably has some growing to do, and the congregation probably needs to adjust their expectations (particularly given the part-time thing).

Frankly, he sounds like he's very introverted. Introverts can make good ministers, but our style tends to be different. More one-on-one, less big gatherings. As an introvert I found I needed to adjust the way I worked because people sometimes felt I was distant or uninterested, but it was more that my preferred way of interacting wasn't so visible. Some constructive feedback to him might be helpful here, that people are feeling neglected.

It also depends what fraction of part-time we're talking. On, say, three days a week, that's enough time to prepare and take services, and deal with absolutely essential administration, and any crises. That's about it. If you want more than that, including more pastoral conversations, you need to fund more time.

If I were you I'd ask to meet with him. Go with a list of the things you'd like him to know you're not happy with, but offer them in a way that's, "Hey, I really care about and want to support you growing in this role, here are some things I don't know if I'm right to be concerned about, how do you see them?" And really listen to what he says in reply. (What I'm saying is, let it be a discussion not an attack or an ambush). And be prepared to adjust your own thinking or expectations.

Mismatch between what a congregation expects and what a minister can deliver can be incredibly stressful and even distressing to a minister. We hate to feel that we're failing people, not caring for them, or letting them down, and it can eat away at you. So go gently.

I myself am an introvert and I really agree completely with what @Paidiske has to say.

I would also add that if a congregation ambushed me in the manner Paidiske cautions against, it would be extremely demoralizing.

Lastly @seeker2122 he actually sounds like a good pastor to me, as long as he is not aloof and standoffish. With introverts like myself, we want friends but are sometimes scared to make the first step. If you reach out to him, that is a way to engage with him.

By the way, in the Orthodox Church there are many priests who are even more introverted, for example, hieromonks (monastic priests). They often serve in a part time capacity and typically receive room and board, only if necessary, otherwise they work for free and commute to and from their monastery, and will tend to leave immediately when the service is over. I know of a really good OCA parish that after the tragic death of their beloved founding priest, was served for some time by a really good Romanian hieromonk, until a new priest could he found, who just did the liturgy and confessions and other required sacramental services and would then return to his monastery. This worked quite well because there was also a permanent deacon among the members of the congregation who supplemented him, and the deacon continues to do good work even though they now have an excellent full time married priest (most celibate orthodox priests are monastic).

 

[The Liturgist]

So let me get this straight...

He works five days a week in another job, prepares on Saturdays and takes services on Sundays?

It's not reasonable to expect anything more. Everyone needs rest, time with their family (or leisure time if they don't have a family), and so on. Nobody can work seven days a week without a break, and have that be sustainable. I don't know how your previous pastor managed, but I would guess he worked less than full time at his other job.

I think your church needs to rethink its model.

Yes I think so, there is no way I could pull that off, and it is not the fault of your pastor.

You should use your pastor for leading the Sunday worship, celebrating baptisms, Holy Communion et cetera, and then see if he can arrange for the ordination of a deacon or lay minister or other person from the congregation to provide support during weekdays.

 

[The Liturgist]

There is no such thing really as a part time pastor. That's like having a part-time surgeon or something like that lol. You would not want your surgeon only spending 1 or 2 days of the week working on his craft lol.

Well unfortunately there is such a thing as a part time pastor, wherever you have a congregation who cannot afford to hire someone to work full time, or chance upon a retiree from another church or even another profession who still has enough energy to do it.

 

[The Liturgist]

This sounds like a matter of personal preference. Some would prefer sermons that make them think; others sermons that make them feel. I'm all about the former, and don't really care so much about someone's personal anecdotes they presume will inspire me. Perhaps inspiration comes from different routes for different people. It also sounds as if the pastor may be doing lectionary-based sermons rather than topical sermons of his own choosing (also a style I prefer).

Me too. I think the use of a lectionary is extremely beneficial. At a minimum, the use of lectio continua is desirable. The only church I know of which pulls off lectio selecta is Park Street Church in Boston, but they do it in an extremely deliberate way, with expositional preaching for each series, and their series based on Leviticus was used in Advent and the weeks leading up to Advent with spectacular effect, since it turns out Leviticus is relevant to the liturgical season of Advent, since by and large it deals with the presence of God, which is also what the Incarnation of Jesus Christ is about.

However Park Street Church is also an extremely well financed church with a large, dynamic congregation, and is historic, being one of the churches, like Old North Church, on Boston’s Freedom Trail, and also being the last conservative Congregational church in the City of Boston, all the rest having become either part of the liberal United Church of Christ or worse, many became Unitarian around 1780-1800 (along with Harvard University, which had previously been the main Congregationalist seminary in the New World, and before that, had been the Puritan seminary).

 

[seeker2122]

So let me get this straight...

He works five days a week in another job, prepares on Saturdays and takes services on Sundays?

It's not reasonable to expect anything more. Everyone needs rest, time with their family (or leisure time if they don't have a family), and so on. Nobody can work seven days a week without a break, and have that be sustainable. I don't know how your previous pastor managed, but I would guess he worked less than full time at his other job.

I think your church needs to rethink its model.

I do agree. You get what you pay for. But at the same time, shouldn't a pastor actually make some effort to get to know his congregants? Say hello? Shake some hands? I don't think he's a bad person. He's not intentionally skimping. But he doesn't show any effort or care for the people and that is why many members feel neglected and thinking about changing churches. Part of me doesn't mind though lol because I actually get to step up and fill that void a little and play the role of pastoral care ^^ which I enjoy and it makes me feel fulfilled for some reason.

 

[seeker2122]

Well unfortunately there is such a thing as a part time pastor, wherever you have a congregation who cannot afford to hire someone to work full time, or chance upon a retiree from another church or even another profession who still has enough energy to do it.

Then would it be okay for me to step up and function as a pastor undercover for them? I really want to reach out to every member, care for them, talk to them, pray with them, and encourage/edify them each week and during the weekdays. I just feel that I might be overstepping toes and sort of disrespecting titles like deacons and pastors because I as a congregant member will display more pastoral care than the actual staff. I hope that is ok with them?

 

[rockytopva]

I would not recommend any church or denomination here without first knowing the senior pastor. Just because someone is educated does not mean they are in tune with the Holy Spirit.

Senior Pastors... Good senior pastors are hard to come buy these days but very necessary for the well being of any church!

 

[seeking.IAM]

Then would it be okay for me to step up and function as a pastor undercover for them?

I think it would be great if you could fill the gap in a personal caring ministry to others!

 

[Paidiske]

But at the same time, shouldn't a pastor actually make some effort to get to know his congregants? Say hello? Shake some hands? ...But he doesn't show any effort or care for the people and that is why many members feel neglected and thinking about changing churches.

Sure, "should." But we've already established that he's working beyond what "should" be asked of any person. By the end of the service on Sunday (and by the way, taking services takes a lot of energy, especially if you're an introvert), he may have nothing left to give.

Then would it be okay for me to step up and function as a pastor undercover for them? I really want to reach out to every member, care for them, talk to them, pray with them, and encourage/edify them each week and during the weekdays. I just feel that I might be overstepping toes and sort of disrespecting titles like deacons and pastors because I as a congregant member will display more pastoral care than the actual staff. I hope that is ok with them?

Here's what I would suggest. Write to the board (or whatever the governing body of your congregation is called). Set out your concerns; note that your pastor is overworked, that there are still gaps, and suggest that a model where some people in the congregation are authorised to take on a pastoral role would be a good thing. Say that you are willing to volunteer some time for that role, if that helps make it happen. See how they respond.

 

[The Liturgist]

Then would it be okay for me to step up and function as a pastor undercover for them? I really want to reach out to every member, care for them, talk to them, pray with them, and encourage/edify them each week and during the weekdays. I just feel that I might be overstepping toes and sort of disrespecting titles like deacons and pastors because I as a congregant member will display more pastoral care than the actual staff. I hope that is ok with them?

It would be not only OK but I expect extremely helpful if you get a blessing from your pastor to act as what the Methodists call a “Lay Servant” or what some other denominations might designate as a deacon (the qualifications and responsibilities for deacons vary from church to church).

The important thing however is that you need to explain to your pastor your desire to help him with these issues, and get a blessing to do so. Otherwise it could interfere with his ministry.

 

[seeker2122]

Sure, "should." But we've already established that he's working beyond what "should" be asked of any person. By the end of the service on Sunday (and by the way, taking services takes a lot of energy, especially if you're an introvert), he may have nothing left to give.

I have to disagree.
If you are in a pastoral position whether it is part-time or full-time, if you are called to be a pastor, you should not limit your service to God based on how much money you are getting paid.

This is legalism.

Here's what I would suggest. Write to the board (or whatever the governing body of your congregation is called). Set out your concerns; note that your pastor is overworked, that there are still gaps, and suggest that a model where some people in the congregation are authorised to take on a pastoral role would be a good thing. Say that you are willing to volunteer some time for that role, if that helps make it happen. See how they respond.

Thanks for the suggestion. The part-time pastor is not overworked though. He holds a full-time job of course during the weekdays and he fulfills the pastoral job by attending all the staff meetings and services and delivers his sermons but he makes zero effort to shepherd his flock. In fact, everyone would agree he doesn't even seem to know a flock exists. He has no interest to care for any members or to get to know them. Many have tried to reach out to him and his answer is "why?" or "I don't have any time". Something doesn't seem right about it for sure....doesn't matter what he is getting paid or not getting paid.....I've seen/heard of pastors who got no pay and still served the Lord everyday of their lives. He's still getting paid each month part-time salary so there is no excuse that he can't make some effort at least to try and care for his flock. To him, the flock doesn't exist.