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Parousia in Olivet Discourse

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by LittleLambofJesus, Dec 12, 2018.

Is Luke 21 same as parousia of Matthew 24?

  1. Yes

  2. No

    0 vote(s)
  3. I don't know

  4. Other

    0 vote(s)
  1. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    Act 28:17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
    Act 28:18 Who, when they had examined me, would have let me go, because there was no cause of death in me.
    Act 28:19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.
    Act 28:20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
    Act 28:21 And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.
    Act 28:22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
    Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
    Act 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
    Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
    Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
    Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
    Act 28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
    Act 28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
    Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
    Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

    Did the fullness of the Gentiles occur during 70 AD?

    Is there some part of the question above you do not understand?

    There are no rabbits in the text.

    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
  2. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

    United States
    Let me ask you this before we go down all those same futurist rabbit trails.
    Do you believe any part of Revelation is fulfilled that is part of the Olivet Discourse?

    Luke 21:24

    “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.
    And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

    Revelation 11:

    1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
    2 and the Court/fold<833> without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side<1854>,
    and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations/gentiles
    and the holy City they shall be trampling<3961> forty two months.

    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
  3. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

    United States
    He has just finished up on the Battle of Armageddon, Mystery Babylon, the Destruction of Babylon

    Kingdom Bible Studies Table of Contents

    Part 184-188

    Part 189-197

    Part 198-203

    He is currently on the Marriage of the Lamb and coincidentally I have the same verses containing "HalleluYah!" in my siggy.......

    Part 204

    “And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power unto the Lord our God: for true and righteous are His judgments: for He hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye His servants, and ye that fear Him, both small and great. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth” (Rev. 19:1-6).

    The vision of this chapter is introduced, not by an angel, but by the loud voices of a combined choir in heaven saying or singing a four-fold “Hallelujah Chorus,” sung in response to the dramatic events of chapter eighteen — the just overthrow and destruction of Babylon the great. The first seven verses are the “Te Deum of Heaven.” In meditation upon these things a strange and wonderful unfolding pervaded my spirit and the great truth that in this blessed vision of John we meet once more one of those remarkable contrasts, which are numerous throughout scripture, became exceedingly clear. The same event arouses radically different responses in different people!

    When Christ was born and there was joy in heaven and the celestial hosts swept down to shout of the glad tidings for the earth and for all peoples, the shepherds of Bethlehem in joyful expectation made their way to the manger in the city of David; but, on the other hand, you find that King Herod, when he received the same news, was deeply chagrined about the event and made the treacherous attempt to snuff out the life of the little Babe before it could rise to glory. At the cross, which for a moment appeared to be the final and complete defeat of the Man of Galilee, we find Mary and John and the women who used to follow Jesus weeping in astonishment and sorrow because of this seemingly tragic turn of events; but at the same time there was a determined satisfaction and indeed an exultant joy in the hearts of the leaders of the scribes and the Pharisees — a joy aroused by the same event which evoked the grief of the Lord’s disciples. In like manner, at the resurrection morning the disciples joyfully and triumphantly greeted one another with the jubilant declaration, “The Lord is risen indeed!” And their hearts were filled with new-born wonder and hope. But the same fact of the resurrection caused the Roman guards to flee in terror and flooded the hearts of the Jewish leaders with dismay and devilish apprehension. The illustration could be multiplied literally by the hundreds! The same events, connected somehow with the formation and triumph of the kingdom of God on earth, are the cause of sorrow, fear, consternation, or mocking to some, and ecstatic joy and overflowing gladness and praise to God to others!

    Thus it is with Babylon, the great city. For long centuries it has been the cause of dismay and fear and even terror to God’s faithful remnant. .........“Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God: for true and righteous are His judgments: for He hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia. And the smoke of her torment rose up for ever and ever…”

    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
  4. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

    United States
    Does the Bible say that the kingdom of God is different than the kingdom of heaven?

    Some believers claim a distinction, although the distinction—if there really were one—never quite seems to serve a cogent purpose except perhaps to affirm the erroneous idea of a double or multiple return of Christ. Note how Matthew and Mark record Jesus’ words in slightly different ways. When Jesus begins his ministry, he says in Matthew that the kingdom of heaven is at hand (4:17), while in Mark, he says the kingdom of God is at hand (1:15). In both instances, Jesus speaks under the same circumstance: after he is baptized and tempted and begins his ministry. The meaning does not change. All that differs is the verbiage. The kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are interchangeable expressions for the same thing, which Jesus also calls his kingdom (Jn 18:36). He is, after all, the one who governs it from heaven.

    Paul refers to the kingdom of God as the kingdom of Christ (Eph 5:5), lending further credence to the idea that biblical terminology is not always so rigid. I like simply to call it the the kingdom, or the church.
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    United States
    Bob, Lord's prayer, May Your kingdom come, may Your Will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Kingdom of Heaven is of course God's Kingdom. But is not until Jesus returns from Heaven and brings the Kingdom of God to be the ruling kingdom here on earth, over all other kingdoms, in Daniel 2.

    Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
  6. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

    United States
    As to the OP, yes, I see a glimpse of the Parousia in Luke.

    After commissioning the twelve, Jesus sends out an additional seventy-two disciples in pairs with similar instructions (Lk 10:1-12). They finish this mission and report back to him (Lk 10:17). They were able to preach throughout the land in a rather short period of time. The Son of Man, therefore, was poised to return. While Jesus was conducting his ministry, he promised his Parousia. While the seventy-two were out preaching, Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven (Lk 10:18). He anticipated the banishment of idolatry. The Gospel would absolve the world and topple evil from the seats of power. The world was now beginning to behold a kingdom of priests, all inhabitants being equal to each other.
  7. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

    United States
    Here is where the greek word #5056 is used in conjunction with the Olivet Disourse:

    Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)

    Mat 10:22

    “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

    Matthew 24:

    6 “And you will hear of battle and rumors of battles. See that you are not troubled;
    for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    13 “But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

    Mark 13:
    7 “But when you hear of battles and rumors of battles, do not be troubled;
    for such things must happen, but the end is not yet.
    13 “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

    Luke 21:
    9 “But when you hear of battles and commotions/tumults, do not be terrified;
    for these things must come to pass first, but the end is not immediate.

    Paul uses the word "ends of the ages" which occurs only in this 1 verse:

    1Co 10:11
    Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition,
    upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

    And there is this verse denoting that end was nigh at hand. I can only take this to mean the "parousia" of the Roman army allowed by Jesus for vengeance upon OC Jerusalem.

    1Pe 4:
    7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.
    17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

    Rev 2:26
    “And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

  8. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

    United States
    Great info Parousia!
    The word "visitation" is actually used in the 70ad passage of Luke 19:44

    1984. episkope from 1980; inspection (for relief); by implication, superintendence; specially, the Christian "episcopate":--the office of a "bishop", bishoprick, visitation.

    Luke 19:
    41 And as He nears, beholding the City, and He laments on Her, 42 saying, "That if Thou knew and Thou, even indeed in this day, the toward peace of Thee, now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
    43 That shall be arriving<2240> days upon Thee, and Thy enemies shall be casting about<4016> a rampart/siege-work<5482> to Thee and shall be encompassing Thee, and pressing Thee from-every-side.
    44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee, and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee, stead which not Thou knew the season/time of the visitation<1984> of Thee".
    Luke 19:44 Biblehub Commentaries:

    Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

    (44) And shall lay thee even with the ground.—See Note on Matthew 24:2. What is there said of the Temple, is here repeated of the city as a whole, and describes a general demolition of everything that could be demolished. So Josephus (Wars, viii. 1, § 1) describes the work as being done so effectively that, with the exception of one or two towers and part of the walls, the fortifications were so laid even with the ground that there was nothing left to make those that came thither believe that that part of the city had been inhabited.

    The time of thy visitation.—The phrase is not found in any other Gospel. The idea of “visitation” presents two aspects, one of pardon (Luke 1:68; Luke 1:78; Luke 7:16), the other of chastisement (1Peter 2:12). In both, however, the act of “visiting” implied looking after, caring for, and so a purpose of mercy. Modern usage—especially, perhaps, the common legal phrase of a man’s dying by the “visitation of God,” of sickness being “His visitation”—has given undue prominence to the latter thought. Here it appears to include both.
    The Christ had visited it first with a message of peace. Then came the discipline
    Expositor's Greek Testament

    Luke 19:44. ἐδαφιοῦσι: this verb (here only in N.T., Sept[155] several times) has both σε and τὰ τέκνα σ. for its objects and must have a meaning assigned to it suitable to each: (1) to raze to the ground—in reference to the city, (2) to dash to the ground—in reference to the children or population of the city.

    Here only in N.T., frequent in Sept[156]—τὸν καιρὸν τ. ἐπισκοπῆς σ., the season of thy gracious visitation.—ἐπισκοπή and its corresponding verb have this meaning in N.T. In Sept[157] it is a vox media and is used with reference to visitations both in mercy and in judgment.
    [155] Septuagint.
    [156] Septuagint.
    [157] Septuagint.

    Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

    44. shall lay thee even with the ground] Titus, if we may trust Josephus, accomplished this prophecy wholly against his will, being driven to the utter subversion and destruction of the city, by the desperate obstinacy of the Jews. Sulpicius Severus (Hist. ii.), who is supposed to be here incorporating a fragment of Tacitus, says, “alii et Titus ipse evertendum templum in primis censebant quo plenius Judaeo- rum et Christianorum religio tolleretur.” Josephus says that it was so frightfully desolated by the siege, that any Jew coming suddenly upon it would have asked what place it was (Jos. B. J. vi. 1, §1). It was again laid waste in the rebellion under Barcochba.
    and thy children within thee] The siege began at the Passover, and hence it is said that nearly 3,000,000 Jews,were crowded into the city.
    shall not leave in thee one stone upon another] The subsequent attempt of the Jews to rebuild the Temple was frustrated by the outburst of subterranean fires. See Gibbon, ch. xxiii. 11. 309 (ed. Milman). Comp. Micah 3:12.
    of thy visitation] See Isaiah 29:2-4; Hosea 10:14-15. For the word ‘visitation’ see 1 Peter 2:12; Sir 18:20. The ‘visitation’ which they had neglected was one of mercy, Luke 1:68.

    Luke 21:
    20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded<2944> by armies<4760>, then know that its desolation has come near. 24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10] And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]

    Revelation 18:
    8 Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows, death and sorrow and famine.
    And in fire She shall be utterly burned<2618>,that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019