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Parousia in Olivet Discourse

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by LittleLambofJesus, Dec 12, 2018.

Is Luke 21 same as parousia of Matthew 24?

  1. Yes

    83.3%
  2. No

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. I don't know

    16.7%
  4. Other

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  1. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Luke 21:28 is rather unique and is part of the Olivet Discourse.
    Jesus tells them that at the beginning of these events, they are to lift up their heads because their redemption is nigh.
    What is it redemption from?


    Luke 21
    23 But woe to those having in womb, and to the ones nursing in those days.
    For there will be great distress<318> upon the land and wrath on this people.
    28 Beginning yet these-things to be becoming, up-bend! and lift-up! the heads of ye,
    thru-that is nearing<1448> the deliverance/redemption<629> of ye.

    It is in the same discourse where Jesus mentions His parousia:


    Matthew 24:
    3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when? shall these be
    and what? the sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>,
    and of the together<4862>-finish<5055>/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'


    Here Paul says "then the end"...end of what?

    1 Corinthians 15:
    23 and each in their proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ’s in His parousia<3952>, 24 then — the end<5056>,

    James says the "parousia" was near/nigh at hand. Was this written before 70ad?

    James 5:8
    be ye patient! also, stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
    that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared<1448>




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  2. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Parousia (/pəˈruːziə/; Greek: παρουσία) is an ancient Greek word meaning presence, arrival, or official visit.

    So when He arrives He will take with Him all the saved/redeemed.
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Or maybe it's just an "Official Visit"...
     
  4. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Well .... it's going to be a pretty "official" visit ;o) The Lord returning in His glory to take us home!

    Amen.
     
  5. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The same term can mean different things. And the same term can mean different times for different things. And there are Bible scholars and others who have very different ideas about when Jesus is coming and what He will do when He comes.

    So . . . first, I think we need to deal with how to be ready. How does God have us become in our character so we are ready?

    And God can have us know what He wants us to know. But, most of all is how we need to become like Jesus and how we are submitting to God and sharing with Him while relating as His family with one another.

    And enjoy discovering what we learn.
     
  6. Second Coming

    Second Coming Member

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    There is only one second coming.
     
  7. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    According to?
     
  8. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Or inspection.
    According to Luke's other Temple/Jerusalem "parousia" discourse, that is exactly what it was/is....


    Luke 19:
    41 And as He nears, beholding the City, and He laments on Her,
    42 saying, "That if Thou knew and Thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward peace of Thee, now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
    43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee,
    and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee
    and shall be encompassing Thee, and pressing Thee from-every-side.
    44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee,
    and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee,
    stead which not Thou knew the season/time of the visitation<1984> of Thee".

    Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon


    1984. episkope from 1980;
    inspection (for relief); by implication, superintendence; specially, the Christian "episcopate":--the office of a "bishop", bishoprick, visitation.

    1909. epi a primary preposition; properly,
    meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.)

    4648. skopeo from 4649;
    to take aim at (spy), i.e. (figuratively) regard:--consider, take heed, look at (on), mark. Compare 3700.
    G1984 ἐπισκοπή (episkopē), occurs 4 times in 4 verses

    Peter uses it 1 time in his Epistles:

    1 Peter 2:12
    having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation<1984>.


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    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
  9. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    1 Thessalonians 4 (His arrival)


    The Return of the Lord

    13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

    15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

    18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Would you say this passage refers to that "one second coming", or not?

    Matthew 21:33-45
    33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

    40 “Therefore, when the Lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

    41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

    42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

    ‘The stone which the builders rejected
    Has become the chief cornerstone.
    This was the Lord’s doing,
    And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

    43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

    45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.
     
  11. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Quoting from The New Testament and the People of God, by N.T. Wright ~

    "The word 'parousia' is itself misleading, anyway, since it merely means 'presence'; Paul can use it of his being present with a church, and nobody supposes that he imagined he would make his appearance flying downward on a cloud.. The church expected certain events to happen within a generation and happen they did, though there must have been moments between AD30 and 70 when some wondered if they would and in consequence took up the Jewish language of delay. Jerusalem fell; the good news of Jesus, and the kingdom of Israel's God, was announced in Rome, as well as in Jerusalem and Athens." (The New Testament and the People of God, Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, p. 463).​
     
  12. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    The word #629 Jesus uses in Luke 21:28 is us in only this 1 verse of the Gospels.
    I am a little unsure of the exact meaning or parsing of this Greek word...


    Luke 21
    23 But woe to those having in womb, and to the ones nursing in those days.
    For there will be great distress<318> upon the land and wrath on this people.
    28 Beginning yet these-things to be becoming, up-bend! and lift-up! the heads of ye,
    thru-that is nearing<1448> the deliverance/redemption<629> of ye.

    Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
    629. apolutrosis from a compound of 575 and 3083;
    (the act) ransom in full, i.e. (figuratively) riddance, or (specially) Christian salvation:--deliverance, redemption.
    G629 ἀπολύτρωσις (apolytrōsis), occurs 10 times in 10 verses

    The other 9 times are in the Epistles, including 2 in Hebrews:

    Hebrews 9:15
    And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption<629> of the transgressions under the first covenant,
    that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
    Hebrews 11:35
    Women received their dead raised to life again.
    Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance<629>, that they might obtain a better resurrection.

    Strong's Greek: 629. ἀπολύτρωσις (apolutrósis) -- a release effected by payment of ransom


    HELPS Word-studies
    629 apolýtrōsis(from 575 /apó, "from" and 3084 /lytróō, "redeem") – properly, redemption – literally, "buying back from, re-purchasing (winning back) what was previously forfeited (lost)."

    629 /apolýtrōsis ("redemption, re-purchase") emphasizes the distance ("safety-margin") that results between the rescued person, and what previously enslaved them. For the believer, the prefix (575 /apó) looks back to God's effective work of grace, purchasing them from the debt of sin and bringing them to their new status (being in Christ).

    b. to let one go free on receiving the price: Plato, legg. 11, p. 919a.; Polybius 22, 21, 8; (cf.) Diodorus 13, 24), "a releasing effected by payment of ransom; redemption, deliverance, liberation procured by the payment of a ransom";

    1. properly: πόλεων αἰχμαλώτων, Plutarch, Pomp. 24 (the only passage in secular writings where the word has as yet been noted; (add, Josephus, Antiquities 12, 2, 3; Diodorus fragment l. xxxvii. 5, 3, p. 149, 6 Dindorf; Philo, quod omn. prob. book § 17)).

    2. everywhere in the N. T. metaphorically, viz. deliverance effected through the death of Christ from the retributive wrath of a holy God and the merited penalty of sin: Romans 3:24; Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14 (cf. ἐξαγοράζω, ἀγοράζω, λυτρόω, etc. (and Trench, § lxxvii.)); ἀπολύτρωσιν τῶν ... παραβάσεων deliverance from the penalty of transgressions, effected through their expiation, Hebrews 9:15 (cf. Delitzsch at the passage and Fritzsche on Romans, vol. ii., p. 178); ἡμέρα ἀπολυτρώσεως, the last day, when consummate liberation is experienced from the sin still lingering even in the regenerate, and from all the ills and troubles of this life, Ephesians 4:30; in the same sense the word is apparently to be taken in 1 Corinthians 1:30 (where Christ himself is said to be redemption, i. e. the author of redemption, the one without whom we could have none), and is to be taken in the phrase ἀπολύτρωσιν τῆς περιποιήσεως, Ephesians 1:14,


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  13. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi, there, Lamb :)

    I think redemption here is especially how we will be fully changed into the likeness of Jesus and therefore to be fully sharing with our Father and our Groom Jesus and one another of the Bride of Jesus. So, the emphasis of the redemption is not mainly about from what, but to all we hope to have with God.

    And Jesus says to be "ready". Keep investing in how God will have us become in the image of Jesus and how we will be relating, then. Start this, now. Now actively seek how God alone is able to so correct us and cure our nature so we are ready to so share with God . . . by means of Jesus as our new inner Person > Galatians 4:19.

    "rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

    But you ask what we are redeemed from >

    from whatever makes us less than how we can so share with God by being like Christ.

    So, the main thing to be redeemed from is our own self stuff. And so Jesus says we need to deny ourselves > Luke 9:23-24 < meaning, I understand, to be changed from how we can fail and suffer and fool ourselves and not even know this, when we could be personally sharing with God, submissive to Him in His perfect peace, and loving and sharing as family in Jesus. Self is what makes us available to whatever is inferior to this.
     
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  14. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Quoting Ben Witherington III ~

    It should be clear from the beginning of v. 16 that Christ is said to come down out of heaven and meet his followers somewhere else, in this case in the atmosphere, where there are clouds. There is likely an echo of Mic. 1:3 here: “For behold the LORD is coming forth out of his place, and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth.” Clouds are regularly said to accompany a theophany, when God comes down to the human level, not when humans are taken up into the presence of God in heaven (see Exod. 19:16; 40:34; 1 Kgs. 8:10–11; Ps. 97:2). Trumpet blasts also accompany theophanies (Exod. 19:16; Isa. 27:13; Joel 2:1; Zech. 9:14). The meeting does not take place in heaven, so there is no rapture into heaven here.​

    Ben Witherington III, 1 and 2 Thessalonians: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary, (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 2006), 141.

    And N.T. Wright ~



    The three stories which Paul is here bringing together start with the story of Moses coming down the mountain. The trumpet sounds, a loud voice is heard, and after a long wait Moses appears and descends from the mountain to see what’s been going on in his absence.

    Then there is the story of Daniel 7, in which the persecuted people of God are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up on the clouds to sit with God in glory. This ‘raising up on the clouds’, which Jesus applies to himself in the gospels, is now applied by Paul to the Christians who are presently suffering persecution.

    Putting these two stories together, in a typically outrageous mix of metaphors, enables Paul to bring in the third story, to which we have already alluded. When the emperor visited a colony or province, the citizens of the country would go to meet him at some distance from the city. It would be disrespectful to have him arrive at the gates as though they his subjects couldn’t be bothered to greet him properly. When they met him, they wouldn’t then stay out in the open country; they would escort him royally into the city itself. When Paul speaks of ‘meeting’ the Lord ‘in the air’, the point is precisely not—as in the popular rapture theology—that the saved believers would then stay up in the air somewhere, away from earth. The point is that, having gone out to meet their returning Lord, they will escort him royally into his domain, that is, back to the place they have come from.

    Even when we realize that this is highly charged metaphor, not literal description, the meaning is the same as in the parallel in Philippians 3:20. Being citizens of heaven, as the Philippians would know, doesn’t mean that one is expecting to go back to the mother city, but rather that one is expecting the emperor to come from the mother city to give the colony its full dignity, to rescue it if need be, to subdue local enemies and put everything to rights.

    These two verses in 1 Thessalonians 4, then, have been grievously abused by those who have constructed out of them a big picture of a supposed ‘rapture’. This has had its effect not only on popular fundamentalism, but on a fair amount of New Testament scholarship, which has assumed that Paul really meant what the fundamentalists think he meant.

    Only when we put together the several different things that he says on the same topic does the truth emerge. This is a typical piece of highly charged and multiply allusive rhetoric. The reality to which it refers is this: Jesus will be present, the dead will be raised, and the living Christians will be transformed. That, as we shall now see, is pretty much what the rest of the New Testament says as well.

    Tom Wright, Surprised by Hope, (London: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, 2007), 144–146.​
     
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    LOL. Nice.
    I love harmonizing Luke with Revelation.
    It was while harmonizing the Jerusalem/Temple discourse that I noticed Jesus' use of the singular word "cloud" in Luke 21
    Matt and Mark use plural "clouds", which is used in only 1 verse of Revelation.


    The exact form of #3507 used in Luke 21:27 is used in 2 other verses, including 1 verse in Revelation at the harvest of the sheep/wheat and goats/tares and the "rapture" of the 2 witnesses.....

    Just click on the Koine greek words below to show the verses.


    G3507 (NKJV)
    mGNT — 25x in 7 unique form(s) TR — 26x in 7 unique form(s)
    νεφέλαι — 2x
    νεφέλαις — 2x
    νεφέλη — 5x
    νεφέλῃ — 3x
    νεφέλην — 6x
    νεφέλης — 4x
    νεφελῶν — 4x

    Luke 21:27
    ‘And then they shall see the Son of Man, coming in a cloud, with power and much glory;

    1Co 10:2 -
    all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

    Revelation 11:12 -
    And they[fn] heard a loud Voice from heaven saying to them, “ascend ye here!"
    And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.


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    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
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  16. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I'm thinking it's redemption from death that was brought in through Adam (but still not really sure). That's a good question.


    "If Christ has not been raised from the dead, then we have nothing to preach and you have nothing to believe." (1 Cor 15:14)


    From this article about the Orthodox beliefs about the death and resurrection of Christ:

    "Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection are affirmed in both Western Christianity (Roman Catholic and Protestant) and in Eastern Orthodoxy. The differences in emphases reflect their respective theological paradigms. In the Western tradition greater emphasis is placed on the penal substitution understanding of salvation, that is, the innocent Son of God suffering or being punished on behalf of the law breakers who deserve eternal condemnation. In the Eastern tradition there seems to be a reticence to expound on the forensic understanding of Christ’s death on the Cross. It sees other themes like renewal and deification:


    You transform the mortal by death, and the corrupt by burial; for as befits God, You have made incorruptible and immortal the nature you assumed; for Your body, O Master, did not see corruption, nor was Your soul abandoned as a stranger in Hades
    . (Great Friday Evening Service, Fifth Ode)

    The Orthodox Church also interprets Christ’s death on the Cross typologically:

    You came from a Virgin who knew no travail; Your side, O my Creator, was pierced by which You accomplished the re-creation of Eve, having Yourself become Adam. Supernaturally, You fell into a sleep that renewed nature, awakening life from sleep and corruption, as the Almighty."
    (Great Friday Evening Service, Fifth Ode) ~ https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orth...from-the-grave-trampling-down-death-by-death/


    It seems to me that so much of what Christ had accomplished wasn't done in one specific event - it seems to have been a process (because after His death on the cross, the NT passages mention sentiments like "waiting for redemption" or "salvation WILL come"). This "salvation" has to be different than what most of us learned about being "salvation from our sins" because - look at this passage - it sets "salvation" apart from "dealing with our sins". We also know it was near to the first century church, because of Hebrews 10:25. "His return" could certainly be referring to the return of His presence (parousia) - especially since Luke 17:23 infers it's not a physical "coming" that's being written about here in these passages.

    Hebrews 9:28 New Living Translation (NLT)
    28 so also Christ was offered once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.

    Hebrews 10:25 New Living Translation (NLT)
    25 And let us not neglect our meeting together, as some people do, but encourage one another, especially now that the day of his return is drawing near.

    1 Peter 1:5 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
    5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

    Romans 13:11 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
    Put On Christ
    11 Besides this, knowing the time, it is already the hour to wake up from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.

    Luke 17:23
    People will tell you, ‘Look, there He is,’ or ‘Here He is.’ Do not go out or chase after them.

    From what I understand, to the ancient Jewish mind, the Kingdom of God wasn't a place....it was where God's will is being done. From Ray Vander Laan:


    "First, to the first-century Jew, “the kingdom of heaven” and “the kingdom of God” were interchangeable terms, and they refer to the reign of God wherever it’s found. To them, God reigns where his will is obeyed, and there you find shalom. To put it differently, wherever things are happening exactly the way God ordered them and wants them, wherever people are living in obedience and commitment to God, there you have the kingdom of heaven.
    Saying that, I must stress that the kingdom of God is not, in the Jewish mind, in any way synonymous with the life to come. Nor is it synonymous with the church or synagogue. Rather, the kingdom of heaven will be found in the life to come, and it ought to be found in the local assemblies of God’s people. The ancient rabbis, including Jesus, did not teach a message that basically said, “If you do this, you’ll go to heaven.” The Jews already knew that God was going to forgive their sins based on His promise to Abraham and the blood path of Genesis 15. Instead, these Jewish teachers came to say, “If you want to join the kingdom of God, here’s how you’ve got to live today, because God’s will has to be done on earth as it is in heaven.” ~ Breaking Out of the Fold: Seeing the Kingdom of God through 1st Century Rabbinic Eyes
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018
  17. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    What a fascinating post concerning the 2 different kingdoms..... Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven thru rabbinical eyes.

    Are you and/or others familiar with Preston Eby's commentaries?
    He has always been a favorite commentator of mine, and tho I have read thru some of his commentaries over the past decade or so, I have barely scratched the surface of most of them, as I got more involved with learning the Greek and Hebrew to better harmonize the Bible, especially Revelation.
    He appears to give some of the lengthiest commentaries I have seen and he delves into the Greek and Hebrew also, which is what I like.
    Here is some snippets on his 60 part series on the Kingdom of God.
    Blessings

    Kingdom Bible Studies Table of Contents

    Kindgdom Bible Studies Kingdom of God Part 1

    Part 1-13 Book 1
    Part 14-27 Book 2
    Part 28-41 Book 3
    Part 42-60 Book 4

    THE RULE OF GOD

    It is significant to note that the phrases “Kingdom of God” and “Kingdom of Heaven” are not to be found in the Old Testament. They are strictly New Testament terms beginning with John the Baptist and Jesus.
    When Jesus came He did not preach a message called grace, or salvation, or justification, or sanctification, or regeneration, or even the Church. Could there be any more glorious message than the one that fell from His lips as He began His sonship ministry declaring, “The KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND!”

    From that time forward the great teaching of the Lord centered in the truth of THE KINGDOM. His gospel was the gospel (good news) of the Kingdom of God. He only lightly touched on the other subjects which today are considered the great doctrines of the Church and then only as they related to the Kingdom. All of these things are included within the Kingdom, but the Kingdom is none of them.

    The Kingdom is THE RULE OF GOD. It is the DOMINION OF GOD. That is exactly what it is. And Jesus came with just that message — the revelation of the RULE OF GOD within the hearts of men, and through men, over the earth, yea, over the whole vast universe! First He must reign completely in our lives.

    The Kingdom of God is God in Christ in the saints governing the creation of God. The rule of God begins in the hearts of His elect.


    Here he talks about Peter girding himself when young and that when he is old, another will gird him......I thought maybe he was talking about Paul, but now I am curious about the "another".

    Jesus, after His resurrection, asked Peter three times if he loved Him. He then said to him: “When you were young, you girded yourself and walked where you would; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and Another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish to go.” Commenting on these words, the Holy Spirit adds: “This Jesus said to show by what death Peter was to glorify God” (Jn. 21:18-19).
    The expressions when you were young and when you are old speak of two distinct periods in Peter’s life.
    They indicate His walk before and after entering the Kingdom. The reference to his past (when Peter was young) and to his future (when he would be old) is not a reference to age but to spiritual immaturity and maturity. Emphasis in the first statement in on the pronoun you (“you girded yourself, you walked where you would”).

    During this period, Peter’s walk with the Lord was a walk which centered on self — on where he wanted to go and what he wanted to do for the Lord. How impetuous was he in his desires! But the day would come when Peter, subject to Jesus as his King, would allow the Lord to do with him as He willed.

    The words, another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish to go, succinctly describe the walk of the Kingdom. The “another” here refers to the Lord. .................
    ==============================================
    That bring to mind this passage in Matt 16:


    Matthew 16
    21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes,
    and be killed, and be raised the third day.
    22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
    23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan!
    You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”



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    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
  18. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    His name seems familiar, and I think I'd first learned about him from you. I've not read his commentaries at much length, however.

    What you shared (below) brings new light for me to that passage. Lights sure go on when we read something that's (most likely) the true meaning. The part that threw me before was the "where you do not wish to go" part - now that makes sense. Unless we "die to ourselves" we aren't going to truly glorify God - and the only way we "die to ourselves" is to leave our broken and defective desires behind (but, that doesn't mean that merely doing things/going places we *don't* want to go = God's will). Only His spirit can truly guide us.



    ETA: I first heard about Preston Eby through Hillsage (a poster here on CF). Now I'm convinced that I really need to read more of his commentaries.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    In context...

    Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
    Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:

    Everything above the dotted line is about 70 AD.
    ............................................................
    and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    ............................................................

    Everything below the dotted line is about the future Second Coming of Christ.

    Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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  20. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    I disagree.....
    Either ALL of it is 70ad or ALL of it is future.........
    That includes Matthew 24 and Mark 13. Either all 3 are completely fulfilled or none of them are.

    A partial preterist member on another forum [Dee Dee Warren; you can google her] some years back claimed to "waffle" concerning a break in Matthew 24:

    Quote from Dee Dee Warren:

    I had promised that although I am not dogmatic beyond verse 34 that I would explore the issue of Matthew 24 past that point a bit. However, though I may build on this section in the future, it is not intended to be comprehensive as was the prior section.

    There are two primary camps within preterism on this issue:

    one view holds that there is a break in Matthew 24 beginning with either verse 35 or 36 [Switch-On],

    and another that holds that the entire enchilada primarily belongs to the first century [Switch-Off].

    Proponents of the former view include Dan Trotter and Gary DeMar,
    and proponents of the latter include Kenneth Gentry and Marcellus Kik.

    Frankly there are strong arguments for both, and I have held both positions, in fact in writing this piece I have waffled - when I started writing I was becoming very convinced of a Pro-Switch view, now upon writing it I am back to my former position of a No-Switch view.

    If in fact there is any change after verse 34, this would be what I would propose (I have not—or my poor memory is not allowing me to recall—read anyone who has made this type of the characterization): the entire Discourse has primary and typological ramifications as does almost the entirety of the Bible, properly understood.

    http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthre...6537483dbcfd1a7c&p=55384&viewfull=1#post55384

    Proponents of the former view include Dan Trotter and Gary DeMar,
    and proponents of the latter include Kenneth Gentry and Marcellus Kik.
    ===================================
    This was a "correctional" response to her from another member concerning the 4 persons and their views

    Basically the references to "former" and "latter" are backwards. It should read

    proponents of the latter view [that holds that the entire enchilada primarily belongs to the first century [Switch-Off]] , include Dan Trotter and Gary DeMar

    and proponents of the former view [that there is a break in Matthew 24 beginning with either verse 35 or 36 [Switch-On]] include Kenneth Gentry and Marcellus Kik

    Again, I talked about this with the author about a year ago and she agreed it was backwards (no ignorance on her part, just a typo of sorts); I guess she never got around to changing it, however.
    ==========================================

    .....

     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
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