Parallels of the old and new Testaments.

[JVAC]

How can one wash without water? Yet how can one be washed into the name of God without the words our Savior gave us? We can’t separate the two for they both accomplish one purpose, (Matt 28:19) “…baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”. The command is for this washing to occur and for the words [dedication] to be said. The same goes with the Lord’s Supper, “Take and eat, this is my Body given for you,” … “Take and drink, this is my blood, the new covenant” (1 Corinthians 11:23).



We know they impart grace, for all grace is is mercy, clemency, divine love and all underserved. We know we are sinners who deserve nothing, so first we know we do not deserve any mercy, love or clemency. Matthew 26:27-28 records some words from our Savior, “Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” There is the mercy, love and clemency. There is the Grace. That our God would give us His love, mercy and clemency with out us even deserving it.

-James

 

[theseed]

How can one wash without water? Yet how can one be washed into the name of God without the words our Savior gave us? We can’t separate the two for they both accomplish one purpose, (Matt 28:19) “…baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”. The command is for this washing to occur and for the words [dedication] to be said. The same goes with the Lord’s Supper, “Take and eat, this is my Body given for you,” … “Take and drink, this is my blood, the new covenant” (1 Corinthians 11:23).

Yes, but where do you get that those words that are said are to wash us?

We know they impart grace, for all grace is is mercy, clemency, divine love and all underserved. We know we are sinners who deserve nothing, so first we know we do not deserve any mercy, love or clemency. Matthew 26:27-28 records some words from our Savior, “Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” There is the mercy, love and clemency. There is the Grace. That our God would give us His love, mercy and clemency with out us even deserving it.

How do we know that Christ is being literal and not simply symbolic of the cross?

 

[ChiRho]

How do we know that these words are not literal?


I would say that by the very words of Institution,

"This is My Body....This is...My Blood...for the forgiveness of sins"

must first be taken literally and from that, one must proove with Scripture, that the words are intended to mean something other than literal. The responsibility to provide Scriptural evidence rest with those that oppose the literal meaning.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

 

[theseed]

The responsibility to provide Scriptural evidence rest with those that oppose the literal meaning.

Very well, "Do this in rememberance of me" Is what Christ said, not "so that you can recieve grace". The passover was symbolic, and the Lord's supper is paralell to the passover. The Passover meal did not forgive sins or bring grace, but was a rememberance. Therefore, the Lord's Supper is only a souvenir that we are commaned to keep, just like passover

 

[FreeinChrist]

Looking at the passage completely, Jesus is using metaphors. It is a covenant act, with Jesus as the mediator. Jesus used other metaphors - was He a literal gate(door), literal bread? From studying the OT Law and the tabernacle, Jesus is making a metaphorical refernce to the shewbread in the Holy of Holies, and the single door to the Holy Place. The writer of Hebrews also uses a reference to Jesus' flesh being the veil which hid the Holy of Holies.
So it reads to me that the bread and the wine are symblic of His flesh and blood, and the literal command is to "do this in remembrance of Me."

 

[ChiRho]

So the Lord's Supper has no real meaning? It all rest on how great we can esteem our God ? How do you know that you esteem Him enough, or remember how you should?

Since the Synod can answer quite better than I can, I simply step aside and submit from our website, our answer.

There is no scriptural reference which will ever satisfy our human minds regarding the fact that in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper we eat bread and drink wine and through that receive the body and blood of our Lord. Again, it all depends on the Word and promise of our Lord who said when He gave the bread and wine, "This IS my body," and "This IS my blood." In his writings, Dr. Luther stressed the word "IS" in his discussions with Ulrich Zwingli who insisted that the words of Jesus were not to be taken literally but symbolically. Please note that the words are not, "My body is like this," that is, that my body is like bread which nourishes. Rather, it is, "This (bread) is my body." If it were merely a symbol one would have to ask, "In what way is bread like Christ's body?"

It should also be noted that in 1 Cor. 10:16 and 11:17-29, St. Paul touches on the matter of the Lord's Supper. In these verses he describes the cup which we drink and the bread which we eat in the Lord's Supper as a participation in the blood and body of Christ. He goes even further and points out that if one eats and drinks the bread and wine in the Lord's Supper in an unworthy manner he is guilty not only of eating and drinking bread and wine in such a way but is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

In view of these passages as well as the words of Jesus when He instituted the sacrament, we have concluded that while we eat bread and drink wine in the sacrament we--in, with, and under these forms--receive the body and blood of our Lord. How? That is the mystery. As the hymn says:

Thy body and thy blood once slain and shed for me
Are taken here with mouth and soul in blest reality.
Search not how this takes place - this wondrous mystery.
God can accomplish vastly more than seemeth plain to thee.

And regarding "remembrance,"

Question 294 of our synodical Catechism (1986) asks, "What does Christ command when He says, `This do in remembrance of Me'?" The Catechism responds: "Christ commands in these words that His Sacrament be celebrated in the church till the end of time as a living proclamation and distribution of His saving death and all its blessings." Likewise, the Augsburg Confession states:

Christ commands us to do this in remembrance of him. Therefore the Mass was instituted that faith on the part of those who use the sacrament should remember what benefits are received through Christ and should cheer and comfort anxious consciences.

For to remember Christ is to remember his benefits and realize that they are truly offered to us; and it is not enough to remember the history, for the Jews and the ungodly can also remember this. (AC XXIV, 30-32).

If by "remembrance" of Jesus one would understand that through the sacrament Christ is present for us for the forgiveness of our sins and for the strengthening of our faith, then such understanding would be in keeping with what the Lutheran confessional writings understand the Scriptures to mean. If, however, "remembrance" of Jesus were understood as a simple "memorial" or mental "recall" of Jesus and His work, such understanding would not be in keeping with Scriptural teaching.

These teachings I am in complete assent with and hold and trust them to be true.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

 

[theseed]

I see no scriptural references here that indicate it imparts grace. I've read those scriptures. You have to elaborate more.

Paul says, "You proclaim the Lords death until he comes"; sounds symbolic to me.

 

[aanjt]

Very well, "Do this in rememberance of me" Is what Christ said, not "so that you can recieve grace". The passover was symbolic, and the Lord's supper is paralell to the passover. The Passover meal did not forgive sins or bring grace, but was a rememberance. Therefore, the Lord's Supper is only a souvenir that we are commaned to keep, just like passover

theseed,

Please go ask a Jew about the Passover. They do not regard it as a rememberance or a souvenir. They are in the Passover when they celebrate it. They are making it present and real to them. They are participating in the Passover every year they celebrate it. A question is asked at the Passover, "Why is this night different from all other nights." The answer never says because God freed their ancestors from bondage. They always use the present tense because they are also participants in it as well.

Yours in Christ,
Jen

 

[ByzantineDixie]

theseed,

Please go ask a Jew about the Passover. They do not regard it as a rememberance or a souvenir. They are in the Passover when they celebrate it. They are making it present and real to them. They are participating in the Passover every year they celebrate it. A question is asked at the Passover, "Why is this night different from all other nights." The answer never says because God freed their ancestors from bondage. They always use the present tense because they are also participants in it as well.

Yours in Christ,
Jen

I was just in a class this last weekend. Wish I was fluent in Greek but my understanding (as I was instructed) is that the Greek word for "remembrance" means something different than how we use the term in English today...it is actually simliar to how Jen describes it, a past, present and future participation. Any Greek scholars out there who could shed some light on the original language?

Rose

 

[theseed]

Jen, Do the Jews use Passover for salvtion purposes or have it tied into salvation doctrine?

 

[aanjt]

Jen, Do the Jews use Passover for salvtion purposes or have it tied into salvation doctrine?

It is through the Passover that they were saved. For it was by the blood of the lamb that marked the posts of their doorposts that caused the angel of death to passover them. Because of the blood of the lamb that was sacrificed, they did not die but were led out of Egypt. Just like we are marked with Christ's blood (Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us - Christ our Passover lamb) we are saved from death.

Yours in Christ,
Jen

 

[theseed]

Baptist Links

SBC commentary on Baptism
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=14103

SBC commentary on the Lord's Supper
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=14088

 

[theseed]

Just like we are marked with Christ's blood (Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us - Christ our Passover lamb) we are saved from death.

And that is why I beleive it is only symbolic. Because we are already marked by the blood of Christ. We have the Holy Spirit to show that promise. We are marked by Christ blood in God's eyes, because we are reconciled to God. The Lord's Supper points to that mark. So with the Lord's Supper we proclaim Christ death, and we remember Christ.

 

[JVAC]

Yes, but where do you get that those words that are said are to wash us?

Back then they used to baptize chalices and dishes all the time. It was a way of washing, you dunk it in some water and that's that. Same thing with John's Baptism, he was washing the the people into repentence.

How do we know that Christ is being literal and not simply symbolic of the cross?

This has already been answered, so I won't touch it, [high five aanjt and runs]

-James

 

[theseed]

Back then they used to baptize chalices and dishes all the time. It was a way of washing, you dunk it in some water and that's that. Same thing with John's Baptism, he was washing the the people into repentence

Of course you can use water to wash dirt, I want to know how it is used to wash sins away? Baptism was a public way of proclaiming repentance.

 

[JVAC]

I want to know how it is used to wash sins away?

It washes sins away because of Christ Jesus and what he has done. It washes sin away because God so said, and whenever God speaks everything listens. St. Paul confesses that Baptism does have this power in his epistle to the Church of Rome "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." (Rom 6:4)

Baptism was a public way of proclaiming repentance.

John baptized not for public show, that doesn't befit the ministry of man clothed in camel hair, who eats locusts and honey. It wasn't for the public, he had the true word and the people recognized it and they wished to participate in it. No where does it say that the people were being baptized to show publicly that they were repentant.

-James

 

[theseed]

We could go all year talking about those verses. And the links I posted go in depth about those verses and history.

But you must keep one thing in mind, John the Baptist was Baptist

 

[JVAC]

I prefer to call him, St. John the Baptizer[or maybe even 'the forerunner']

(wink)

-James