Parallel universe

[shernren]

Why not? As a physicist, won't you puzzle on what could another universe mean? How about the existence of an anti-shernren? How could you close your eye on the possibilities?

I'm just a pragmatist. The evidence at hand says there's insufficient anti-matter in the local universe to constitute an anti-shernren (and even if there was one, I'd be pretty hesitant to shake his hand!). The possibilities are not really there, especially not within my lifetime.

Though I'd love to be proven wrong!

 

[Assyrian]

You would never know...

 

[Deamiter]

I'm just a pragmatist. The evidence at hand says there's insufficient anti-matter in the local universe to constitute an anti-shernren (and even if there was one, I'd be pretty hesitant to shake his hand!). The possibilities are not really there, especially not within my lifetime.

Though I'd love to be proven wrong!

Do theories regarding multiple universes say anything about the existence of an anti-matter shernen in the local universe or otherwise?

As a physicist myself, I find the proposals fascinating, but they're nothing to get worked up about at the moment because they're pretty squarely unevidenced and unfalsifiable (so far). The theories are sound in that they look like they COULD explain the current state of the universe we all experience, but at the moment they're more a useful tool to collect and begin mathematical discussion of the nature of the universe on a new level than an accurate or verified understanding any observations.

 

[Assyrian]

The version I dislike, which is also the most popular in bad SciFi, is that for every decision, every event, the universe splits into two alternative universes, one where you do and the other where you don't. Apart from the huge amount of energy involved in creating another whole universe every time I make a choice, there is the assumption that every choice must have a 50:50 chance. If there is only a 1 in 10 chance I chose A, doesn't that mean there have to be 9 universes where B is chosen? Otherwise, if there are only two universes, the chances of ending up in one rather than the other is 50:50?

So, what if I mark out 1 radian on a roulette or tombola wheel. The chance of ending up in the radian is 1 in π (I think), an irrational number. It would take an infinite number of new universes to be able to give me a chance of 1 in π of ending up with one choice rather than the other.

 

[juvenissun]

What I wondered is the possibility of communication between unverses. Upon one thing I heard, this is not entirely a fiction. Top physicists suggested the gravity force IS flowing (?) from one unverse to another.

Theological application? How about "the third heaven" Paul said (2nd corinthians 12:2-4). It would be hard to imagine how could material or energy flow among unverses. But if I were an atheist, I would say: allow another few centuries, we will find out. If so, as a believer, how hard would it be to believe that God is moving things around among universes with a time frame sounds impossible to us?

Yes, another universe, that is where I expect to be after this life. If my spirit has anything to do with energy, that is how I would travel from this universe to others. I do believe Paul experienced a small part of it. His description makes sense.

 

[Deamiter]

What I wondered is the possibility of communication between unverses. Upon one thing I heard, this is not entirely a fiction. Top physicists suggested the gravity force IS flowing (?) from one unverse to another.

Note that this is simply a suggestion. There's no evidence either way. Theoretical physics in this area does indeed make sense mathematically, but until and unless we can observe this flow, it's simply very well explained and calculated speculation.

Theological application? How about "the third heaven" Paul said (2nd corinthians 12:2-4). It would be hard to imagine how could material or energy flow among unverses. But if I were an atheist, I would say: allow another few centuries, we will find out. If so, as a believer, how hard would it be to believe that God is moving things around among universes with a time frame sounds impossible to us?

Yes, another universe, that is where I expect to be after this life. If my spirit has anything to do with energy, that is how I would travel from this universe to others. I do believe Paul experienced a small part of it. His description makes sense.

Around here we often love to do a little fantasizing about how precisely the universe works and how God makes decisions etc... It's interesting to just think about unanswerable questions such as "how many gentiles before Christ made it to heaven?"

As long as you don't claim that you know this sort of fantasizing to be true, there's really no harm in it -- it's a lot of fun! At the same time, if you start proof-texting your lay-understanding of theoretical physics into the Bible and claiming it is the correct interpretation of the Bible, you're clearly not serving Christ in the assertion! Do have fun fantasizing about alternate universes (I do!) but be careful not to fall into the defensive debate mode that leads you to defend such an alternate universe as the correct understanding of heaven as if such an understanding were Biblical or somehow on the same level as the clearer theology set forth in scripture.

 

[Deamiter]

The version I dislike, which is also the most popular in bad SciFi, is that for every decision, every event, the universe splits into two alternative universes, one where you do and the other where you don't. Apart from the huge amount of energy involved in creating another whole universe every time I make a choice, there is the assumption that every choice must have a 50:50 chance. If there is only a 1 in 10 chance I chose A, doesn't that mean there have to be 9 universes where B is chosen? Otherwise, if there are only two universes, the chances of ending up in one rather than the other is 50:50?

So, what if I mark out 1 radian on a roulette or tombola wheel. The chance of ending up in the radian is 1 in π (I think), an irrational number. It would take an infinite number of new universes to be able to give me a chance of 1 in π of ending up with one choice rather than the other.

For obvious reasons, it's portrayed in a simplified way in science fiction, but I believe (not from education but from reading some pedagogical books on theoretical physics) that the idea is that every instant is split into an infinite number of alternate universes. It's not so much that there's a physical split but that every possible universe exists. Splitting is simply a pretty good way to explain it to a lay-person because trying to explain the existence of every possible universe without prior practice with that sort of weirdness is often rather frustrating.

 

[Assyrian]

You mean a sort of quantum superimposition of alterntive universes?

 

[juvenissun]

Note that this is simply a suggestion. There's no evidence either way. Theoretical physics in this area does indeed make sense mathematically, but until and unless we can observe this flow, it's simply very well explained and calculated speculation.
Around here we often love to do a little fantasizing about how precisely the universe works and how God makes decisions etc... It's interesting to just think about unanswerable questions such as "how many gentiles before Christ made it to heaven?"

As long as you don't claim that you know this sort of fantasizing to be true, there's really no harm in it -- it's a lot of fun! At the same time, if you start proof-texting your lay-understanding of theoretical physics into the Bible and claiming it is the correct interpretation of the Bible, you're clearly not serving Christ in the assertion! Do have fun fantasizing about alternate universes (I do!) but be careful not to fall into the defensive debate mode that leads you to defend such an alternate universe as the correct understanding of heaven as if such an understanding were Biblical or somehow on the same level as the clearer theology set forth in scripture.

In the field of faith, there is nothing called "proof" any way. The relation between parallen universe and "the third heaven" exist only in your mind. If it could help on your faith, God bless. Otherwise, you find your own way to strengthen your faith.

God gives us the ability of logic thinking. And we figured out the possibility of multiple universes. That is pretty amazing. I only hope God won't tear this version of the Tower of Babel down. Because our understanding on His creation is moving pretty fast toward the right direction.

 

[crawfish]

As a physicist myself, I find the proposals fascinating, but they're nothing to get worked up about at the moment because they're pretty squarely unevidenced and unfalsifiable (so far). The theories are sound in that they look like they COULD explain the current state of the universe we all experience, but at the moment they're more a useful tool to collect and begin mathematical discussion of the nature of the universe on a new level than an accurate or verified understanding any observations.

Killjoy.

 

[Deamiter]

In the field of faith, there is nothing called "proof" any way. The relation between parallen universe and "the third heaven" exist only in your mind. If it could help on your faith, God bless. Otherwise, you find your own way to strengthen your faith.

God gives us the ability of logic thinking. And we figured out the possibility of multiple universes. That is pretty amazing. I only hope God won't tear this version of the Tower of Babel down. Because our understanding on His creation is moving pretty fast toward the right direction.

This is a very odd concept to me. Are you suggesting that anything we can imagine should be believed if it strengthens our faith even if it is not correct?

That certainly fits with what some creationists have told me -- that since people have come to Christ through creationism what's the harm? I'd suggest that believing something just because it makes your faith easier or stronger is incredibly dangerous because unless your faith is based on truth, it cannot and will not lead you to Christ and salvation. While feeling more comfortable at the moment may be nice a faith based on impulsive fantasy cannot be rewarding in the long run.

For instance, if you build even a part of your faith on the existence of multiple universes without any evidence (biblical or physical) that they exist, won't your faith be harmed if your fantasies about heaven being an alternate universe are disproved?

 

[juvenissun]

You mean a sort of quantum superimposition of alterntive universes?

I do not really know what quantum is. And I am not sure how "superimpositioin" work. I am not a physcist. However, I do appreciate what the conclusion (interpretation) physcists spelled out.

The believe of a parallel universe is NOT a fantasy. There is no evidence for it now. But there are plenty of things that have no evidence either. Such as God, dark energy etc. When we talk about believe, evidence is not needed. To me, it is a "quantum" leap. And it is, in fact, an effective way in any scientific research.

If implications in the Bible could be related to math expression, it is a strong evidence to me. Math is a spiritual gift from God. We could use it to reach God.

 

[Deamiter]

I do not really know what quantum is. And I am not sure how "superimpositioin" work. I am not a physcist. However, I do appreciate what the conclusion (interpretation) physcists spelled out.

The believe of a parallel universe is NOT a fantasy. There is no evidence for it now. But there are plenty of things that have no evidence either. Such as God, dark energy etc. When we talk about believe, evidence is not needed. To me, it is a "quantum" leap. And it is, in fact, an effective way in any scientific research.

If implications in the Bible could be related to math expression, it is a strong evidence to me. Math is a spiritual gift from God. We could use it to reach God.

Um... right. There is a TON of evidence for dark energy. I'm also not sure you understand what exactly has been shown mathematically. There are in fact quite a few models that include multiple universes that are mutually exclusive. They are all supported mathematically but once again there is no way to distinguish between them.

Now if you want to use a misunderstanding of a proposal in theoretical physics as your personal conception of heaven you're welcome to it! You're just not doing God any favors by promoting your pet fantasy as somehow Biblical truth!

For example, if you think we go to heaven when we die, how do you think we get there? If you subscribe to these multiple universe models you'd have to propose something like a wormhole which would be VERY detectable. Along with a host of other details, what you're really proposing is that you like the idea of heaven being supported by science and are happy to remain ignorant enough of the actual science so that your new-found belief makes sense to you.

Just don't pretend this idea is in any way supported by science as all you're really saying is that you think heaven is not in this universe, not that the Biblical heaven is at all consistent with multiverse models.

 

[juvenissun]

Um... right. There is a TON of evidence for dark energy. I'm also not sure you understand what exactly has been shown mathematically. There are in fact quite a few models that include multiple universes that are mutually exclusive. They are all supported mathematically but once again there is no way to distinguish between them.

Now if you want to use a misunderstanding of a proposal in theoretical physics as your personal conception of heaven you're welcome to it! You're just not doing God any favors by promoting your pet fantasy as somehow Biblical truth!

For example, if you think we go to heaven when we die, how do you think we get there? If you subscribe to these multiple universe models you'd have to propose something like a wormhole which would be VERY detectable. Along with a host of other details, what you're really proposing is that you like the idea of heaven being supported by science and are happy to remain ignorant enough of the actual science so that your new-found belief makes sense to you.

Just don't pretend this idea is in any way supported by science as all you're really saying is that you think heaven is not in this universe, not that the Biblical heaven is at all consistent with multiverse models.

Biased arguments. Full of logic errors.

 

[Deamiter]

Biased arguments. Full of logic errors.

eh? And the argument that heaven must be an alternate universe based on absolutely no technical understanding of either multiple universes or heaven is quite a sound argument?

Have you truly suddenly decided that heaven MUST be an alternate universe based on the discussions of theoretical physics we've had in this forum? I mean, I understand that you've been conditioned to be defensive around here since we nitpick just about everything, but this unbiblical and unscientific claim has about as much support as alien abductions and ongoing control of the White House by a New World Order.

 

[juvenissun]

Deamiter said:

For example, if you think we go to heaven when we die, how do you think we get there?

I think this is a good question to illustrate the point.

I think you do not know the answer of the question, "and you do not want to think about it". That is fine with you. But as God give me a brain to think, I will just use it more to appreciate the gift.

How do I think on this matter which no one knew and no one would ever know? You may call whatever neuron connections happened in my brain as fantasy, but even fantasy needs some knowledge base. On this definition, the parallel universe model can be called a fantasy on itself. But it is developed by scientist.

I think God gives us a bigger brain means that He wants us to use it. If you do not want to think about this ultimate traveling question, it might not hurt you. But I believe if I think about it, I will be more blessed.

 

[crawfish]

Deamiter said:



I think this is a good question to illustrate the point.

I think you do not know the answer of the question, "and you do not want to think about it". That is fine with you. But as God give me a brain to think, I will just use it more to appreciate the gift.

How do I think on this matter which no one knew and no one would ever know? You may call whatever neuron connections happened in my brain as fantasy, but even fantasy needs some knowledge base. On this definition, the parallel universe model can be called a fantasy on itself. But it is developed by scientist.

I think God gives us a bigger brain means that He wants us to use it. If you do not want to think about this ultimate traveling question, it might not hurt you. But I believe if I think about it, I will be more blessed.

It's a lot of fun to think about. I have a very speculative mind, and I've thought of it often. Dimensional theory can provide some interesting thoughts as to what God could be and how He could do what He does - it explains omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence in a way that fits, logically. As long as you don't take the thought processes too seriously, I see no problems with it.

BTW, have you read Edward Abbot's "Flatland"? The seminal fiction on this subject, and a cool read. Highly recommended if you haven't.

 

[Deamiter]

I think you do not know the answer of the question, "and you do not want to think about it". That is fine with you. But as God give me a brain to think, I will just use it more to appreciate the gift.

How do I think on this matter which no one knew and no one would ever know? You may call whatever neuron connections happened in my brain as fantasy, but even fantasy needs some knowledge base. On this definition, the parallel universe model can be called a fantasy on itself. But it is developed by scientist.

I think God gives us a bigger brain means that He wants us to use it. If you do not want to think about this ultimate traveling question, it might not hurt you. But I believe if I think about it, I will be more blessed.

Wait a second, I never said that I didn't want to think about it or even that I didn't like the connection you've made! And don't for a second think that I'm only arguing because we disagree elsewhere -- as you might have noticed earlier I was called a "killjoy" by a TE for pointing out a similar fact.

I do love the idea of heaven being an alternate universe. What I object to is it being preached as doctrine or something when it IS just fanciful imagination. That's in no way supposed to slam imagination -- some of my favorite books are C.S. Lewis' series on Adam and Eve on Mars and Venus! I am in NO way trying to tell you not to keep using your imagination! I am simply and (I believe) prudently cautioning against preaching your imagined connections as anything but your God-given ability to imagine.