• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Paradoxical question

Status
Not open for further replies.

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,731
USA
✟184,857.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
We can't save anyone. We, as the parable shows, can only sow seeds. We do not water them, care for them, determine how they grow.
The Bible says otherwise. BB-1611 showed from Jude 22-23, "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."

1 Cor 3:6 - I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow.
1 Cor 3:8 - The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor.
 
Upvote 0

crossnote

Berean
Site Supporter
May 16, 2010
2,903
1,593
So. Cal.
✟295,751.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Then why does the Bible command believers to be holy and blameless so much?

We all know that pleases God.
This makes no sense as a response to my statement, "A born again Christian will want to do whatever to please God, the unregenerate man hates God and cares nothing about pleasing Him."

I'm comparing the regenerate man with the unregenerate man and somehow, out of the blue, you bring up 'Christian holiness or perfection'.

You mean He didn't die for the "former", the born again Christian??
The question was 'can the non believer get saved?' I answered 'Christ died for the unbeliever'. Then you come back and ask 'He didn't die for the former (meaning believer)? Of course, Jesus died for all. Was that a troll question? It didn't seem serious at all.

That was my point.
Sorry, I missed your point since you jumped into my discussion out of nowhere. Were you defending @BibleBeliever1611? Agreeing with him or???
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,731
USA
✟184,857.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I said:
"Then why does the Bible command believers to be holy and blameless so much?

We all know that pleases God."
This makes no sense as a response to my statement, "A born again Christian will want to do whatever to please God, the unregenerate man hates God and cares nothing about pleasing Him."
Of course it does. You claim a believer WILL WANT TO DO WHATEVER to please God. Yet, the Bible commands it. If believers "will want to...", then there would be no need for such commands.

I'm comparing the regenerate man with the unregenerate man and somehow, out of the blue, you bring up 'Christian holiness or perfection'.
You are missing the point. Commands are for specific behavior. Your comment suggests that believers WILL do specific things. If that is true, why give the command?

Does anyone command you to breathe regularly? No. You do it automatically.

The question was 'can the non believer get saved?' I answered 'Christ died for the unbeliever'. Then you come back and ask 'He didn't die for the former (meaning believer)? Of course, Jesus died for all. Was that a troll question? It didn't seem serious at all.
You specifically said Christ died for the "latter", meaning the believer.
 
Upvote 0

JIMINZ

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2017
6,600
2,358
81
Southern Ga.
✟172,715.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
No, the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 had all done "good works" in Jesus' name, thinking that would get them into the kingdom. And it didn't.

Let me see.

1) The words (Good Works), are not found in that verse.
2) The words (Wonderful Works ) are, but they do not mean Good Works even though we might consider them to be so.

We have to take what was written as it is, not interjecting our own Definitions, Doctrines, or Beliefs.

Therefore the Definition of the words used explain what was meant by Jesus' statement, is needed.

WONDERFUL WORKS:
G1411
δύναμις
dunamis
doo'-nam-is
From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.

G1410
δύναμαι
dunamai
doo'-nam-ahee
Of uncertain affinity; to be able or possible: - be able, can (do, + -not), could, may, might, be possible, be of power.

Again, nowhere in the two Definition's is (Good Works) to be found.

Now concerning the words (Good Works).

Eph. 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

GOOD:
G18
ἀγαθός
agathos
ag-ath-os'
A primary word; “good” (in any sense, often as noun): - benefit, good (-s, things), well. Compare G2570.

G2570
καλός
kalos
kal-os'
Of uncertain affinity; properly beautiful, but chiefly (figuratively) good (literally or morally), that is, valuable or virtuous (for appearance or use, and thus distinguished from G18, which is properly intrinsic): - X better, fair, good (-ly), honest, meet, well, worthy.

WORKS:
G2041
ἔργον
ergon
er'-gon
From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.

Thus, what we find when we compare the the Definitions of the two is,
1) (Wonderful Works)
2) (Good Works)

There is ONE word in the GREEK, which defines what Jesus was saying, (Given above).

Whereas, we find in the GREEK there are two separate words, each with their own definitions concerning what is being done. (Type of Work)

Jesus in Mat. 7 was not speaking about the specific things they were doing, but HOW they were doing them.

In Eph. 2 the specific Works are being spoken of.


Mat 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus was saying that what they were doing wasn't enough, He then pointed out what was most important.

John 9:35-37
35) Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36) He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37) And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

Therefore, Jesus was saying, it is not what you do, which get you into the Kingdom (WORKS) but, what you (BELIEVE).
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
25,489
9,509
up there
✟403,501.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Not true at all. The Bible specifically commands Christians to save other people (not only to sow seeds).
Save them by loving all as self and putting their needs ahead of our own if need be to get them on their feet. NOT, as many churches or people do, say we will help you if you follow our way and live according to our plan. We can save you if you follow us.
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
25,489
9,509
up there
✟403,501.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The Bible says otherwise. BB-1611 showed from Jude 22-23, "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."

God allows us to choose whether we want to continue living according to man's will or God's will. Sowers should do the same but some have already fallen back to the ways of man in self determining how seeds should grow. They don't hate the garment spotted by the flesh. They have returned to it just like the Gentile church did when it realigned itself with the empires of man to work in tandem gaining the same earthly power and glory.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,731
USA
✟184,857.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I said:
"No, the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 had all done "good works" in Jesus' name, thinking that would get them into the kingdom. And it didn't."
Let me see.

1) The words (Good Works), are not found in that verse.
Are you kidding? What was their appeal for entering heaven?

v.22 - Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’

So then, what are these? Bad works?

2) The words (Wonderful Works ) are, but they do not mean Good Works even though we might consider them to be so.

We have to take what was written as it is, not interjecting our own Definitions, Doctrines, or Beliefs.
Let's ALSO take what WASN'T written, which is their faith. There is NO MENTION of the fact that this crowd ever believed in Jesus for salvation.

You want proof of this? Sure.

v.23 - Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Jesus could NOT have spoken the red words IF any of them had EVER believed in Him.

Jesus in Mat. 7 was not speaking about the specific things they were doing, but HOW they were doing them.
The real issue what that they were trusting in what they DID, rather than trusting in what Jesus DID on their behalf. They were NEVER believers.

Mat 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus was saying that what they were doing wasn't enough, He then pointed out what was most important.
So, from Matt 7:21, just what was "most important"? Jesus didn't specify.

John 9:35-37
35) Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36) He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37) And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

Therefore, Jesus was saying, it is not what you do, which get you into the Kingdom (WORKS) but, what you (BELIEVE).
True answer, but John 9:35-37 isn't the "go to" passage regarding God's will, which Jesus specifically noted in Matt 7:21.

For that verse, we need to "go to" John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
 
Upvote 0

JIMINZ

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2017
6,600
2,358
81
Southern Ga.
✟172,715.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
So then, what are these? Bad works?

No, not at all, it's just the fact you do not understand the words which were used and they weren't Good Works, when you understand that simple thing, then maybe you will understand the verse itself and what Jesus was actually saying why He was saying it the way He did, and not the way you believe He did.


Let's ALSO take what WASN'T written, which is their faith. There is NO MENTION of the fact that this crowd ever believed in Jesus for salvation.

I fully understand that fact.

The real issue what that they were trusting in what they DID, rather than trusting in what Jesus DID on their behalf. They were NEVER believers.

Right again.

So, from Matt 7:21, just what was "most important"? Jesus didn't specify.

Sure He did, you said it yourself, they were not doing the Will of God which was Believing in Jesus as the Son of God.

They were only doing Works at that point.

Now, if you want to ignore the Definitions I provided for you in order to clarify my position to you, then go ahead, but unless you understand How and Why something has been said in a certain way they you are missing the deeper understanding, and I don't just mean the Verse in question here, but what it connects to in the understanding of the New Testament.

The Bible is a Book of words, but if you insist on using words which are not used in the verses you are reading, or you use the English Definition for said words used, then you are missing the whole point of the Bible itself.

Assumptions, Suppositions, Allusions to, or English Definitions, do not give you anything concerning Understanding or Knowledge.
 
Upvote 0

crossnote

Berean
Site Supporter
May 16, 2010
2,903
1,593
So. Cal.
✟295,751.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Of course it does. You claim a believer WILL WANT TO DO WHATEVER to please God. Yet, the Bible commands it. If believers "will want to...", then there would be no need for such commands.
The Scriptures are to all both believers and non believers, that's why the warnings. Or are you going to tell me that born again believers don't want to?

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Jer 31:33)
You are missing the point. Commands are for specific behavior. Your comment suggests that believers WILL do specific things. If that is true, why give the command?

Does anyone command you to breathe regularly? No. You do it automatically.
No that's your point because that is the agenda you want to push. So much so, that you jumped into the middle of another's conversation just to make your point.
You specifically said Christ died for the "latter", meaning the believer.
Christ died for all, deal with it.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: JIMINZ
Upvote 0

JIMINZ

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2017
6,600
2,358
81
Southern Ga.
✟172,715.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Not true at all. The Bible specifically commands Christians to save other people

Only Jesus can Save people, Christians didn't die for others sins.

Act. 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
 
Upvote 0

BibleBeliever1611

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2020
505
216
30
Vantaa
✟122,951.00
Country
Finland
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Since works aren't part of how to get saved (see Acts 16:30-31), no problem. The real problem is that you're trying to evangelize an atheist, who doesn't even believe there is a God. So you are wasting your time. Unless and until said "fool" (Psa 14:1-3, 53:1-3) comes to his senses, there is no way he CAN be saved.


Neither answer is correct. An atheist, by definition, cannot get saved. An atheist doesn't believe in God. Therefore, they don't believe in God's Son. Period.


OK, now I see your agenda. You are anti-grace by your pejorative "easy-believism" snipe. Why don't you believe what Jesus said? Matt 11:30 - For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Or Eph 2:8,9?

And you must certainly disagree with Paul's answer to the jailer, who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved, and Paul said "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved". Acts 16:30-31


Nothing of what you've presented would be the right answer. You can't evangelize an atheist.


The gross error in your agenda here is obvious. There is no such "license to sin". That is ludicrous. Every human being has a sinful nature, sometimes called the "flesh" in Scripture. Therefore, no license needed.


No. Neither one is correct.

Before even trying to evangelize an atheist, one must first begin with creation, per Rom 1:19-21. Until they understand and believe that the universe was created by God, they cannot be evangelized at all.

I was trying to show that either easy-believism is true, or then works-salvation is true. There is no gray area.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,731
USA
✟184,857.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
The Scriptures are to all both believers and non believers, that's why the warnings.
The only part that is relevant to unbelievers is the gospel, which is to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Or are you going to tell me that born again believers don't want to?
You must be quite naive.

Christ died for all, deal with it.
I embrace that fact! So I don't have to "deal with it".
 
Upvote 0

crossnote

Berean
Site Supporter
May 16, 2010
2,903
1,593
So. Cal.
✟295,751.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The only part that is relevant to unbelievers is the gospel, which is to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation.
True, but it's also relevant to the believer to remind them of the pit from which they were rescued.
You must be quite naive.
You'd understand if you were born again. It means a changed heart/desires among other things.
 
Upvote 0

5thKingdom

Newbie
Mar 23, 2015
3,698
219
✟35,230.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I was trying to show that either easy-believism is true, or then works-salvation is true. There is no gray area.


Both "easy-believism" and "works-salvation" are LIES from Satan.
Only election from a Sovereign God is the Biblically True Gospel.


Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)


Rom 9:15-16
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any
man should boast.


Joh 6:44
NO MAN can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Jim
.
 
Upvote 0

5thKingdom

Newbie
Mar 23, 2015
3,698
219
✟35,230.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Christ died for all, deal with it.


If Christ dies for all men (everyone ever born - including children
of Satan) then why does anyone PAY for their sins? The Bible does
NOT teach that sins must be paid for TWICE. And the Bible does not
teach people go to hell for the SINGLE SIN of not "accepting" Christ.

So your theory cannot stand will harmony of ALL RELATED Scripture.
However, if Christ died for ALL of "His Sheep", elected before the
foundation of the world - then you have harmony of Scripture.

Jim
.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,731
USA
✟184,857.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
True, but it's also relevant to the believer to remind them of the pit from which they were rescued.
Since no believer will ever experience hell, it is irrelevant as a warning to them.

Warnings are relevant only for those susceptible to the danger.

You'd understand if you were born again.
What kind of a stupid, denigrating, and forum violating snipe is this? What's wrong with you?

It means a changed heart/desires among other things.[/QUOTE]
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.