paradox in God's omnipotence?

[megansophia]

I don't understand the concept of God being omnipotent. If he was, then he'd know what he was going to do before he even did it. He stands above time and all other dimensions, so he would have known about his existence before he even existed. In order to make plans and decisions, you need to act over time. Which would mean that God has no free will, since everything was already predetermined. He can't be omnipotent if he doesn't have free will.

And then for the rest of us, it means we don't have a free will either. Our decisions aren't up to us, since God already knows what we're going to do and when we're going to do it. If I had a free will, God wouldn't know what I was doing tomorrow and therefore wouldn't be omnipotent.

Which then in turn leaves prayers obsolete, why would one pray for something when God already knows that person will make that prayer?

Sorry if that was confusing or didn't make sense.

 

[BobW188]

He stands outside time and all other dimensions, so there is no "before" to consider; and in fact cosmologists tell us that time arose from the Big Bang, just as did length, width, height and the relationships of relativity. We see the results his work in our linear, past-present-future time

 

[aiki]

I don't understand the concept of God being omnipotent. If he was, then he'd know what he was going to do before he even did it.

I think you mean omniscient, not omnipotent. The former term means all-knowing, the latter term means all-powerful.

He stands above time and all other dimensions, so he would have known about his existence before he even existed.

God has always existed. He is without beginning. This is part of what makes Him God.

In order to make plans and decisions, you need to act over time.

This is true for us, not for God.

Which would mean that God has no free will, since everything was already predetermined. He can't be omnipotent if he doesn't have free will.

If a thing is "predetermined," there must be a Predeterminer. That would be God.

You can't reason successfully from yourself to God. He isn't like us: what applies to us doesn't necessarily apply to Him.

And then for the rest of us, it means we don't have a free will either. Our decisions aren't up to us, since God already knows what we're going to do and when we're going to do it.

I know if my cat licks herself too much she's going to get a hairball. My knowledge of this doesn't in any way affect when or if my cat licks herself, however. Foreknowledge doesn't necessarily preclude choice.

If I had a free will, God wouldn't know what I was doing tomorrow and therefore wouldn't be omnipotent.

As I said, God's omniscience doesn't necessarily interfere with your free will.

Which then in turn leaves prayers obsolete, why would one pray for something when God already knows that person will make that prayer?

Because it is important for us to pray. No relationship we have exists without communication. This is true also for our relationship with God. As well, praying to God reminds us of our need of Him. When we pray we are consciously acknowledging our dependence upon our Maker and His pre-eminent role in our life.

Peace to you.

 

[drich0150]

I don't understand the concept of God being omnipotent. If he was, then he'd know what he was going to do before he even did it. He stands above time and all other dimensions, so he would have known about his existence before he even existed. In order to make plans and decisions, you need to act over time.

Respectfully couldn't there be an element missing in you logic? one that is privy to a being that "Stands above time and all other dimensions." This isn't really such a far fetched concept is it? We being finite and constrained by linear time may not have an infinite understanding of how the Infinite actually exists above and beyond the boundaries of time itself?

And then for the rest of us, it means we don't have a free will either. Our decisions aren't up to us, since God already knows what we're going to do and when we're going to do it. If I had a free will, God wouldn't know what I was doing tomorrow and therefore wouldn't be omnipotent.

We can experience a sense of this by simply watching a documentary.. By that I mean the events portrayed on screen Happened, and happened without your influence, but at the end of the documentary if you paid attention you would have full knowledge of the events portrayed.

God being "Above time" is not confined to what we know as the present. This is why it can be said that He is the same yesterday Today and tomorrow.. Just because we living in the present or in the case of the documentary what is being view on screen at the present time, and just because we don't know how the story will end, Doesn't mean God hasn't already seen our film, and has it memorized.

Which then in turn leaves prayers obsolete, why would one pray for something when God already knows that person will make that prayer?

This is a valid argument if prayers were a way to make and have wishes granted.. True prayer is much more than that.. It is an open line of communication between you and God. Prayer isn't meant to be a way to inform God of your stuff.. But a way to grow in your faith. Meaning if you pray or ask for stuff and don't get it then it's time to look at what your asking for and how that relates to the expressed will of God. And in doing so look at why your praying for these things, and if your reasons don't line up as they should, then it's time to move on and grow in the spirit, and start praying for stuff that is in line with God's will, rather than your own...

This is what prayer really is.. At some point you will stop asking for stuff and start asking that no matter what comes help me to except it, learn from it, and grow in my faith.

Again the reason for prayer even though God know what you will pray for is, because even though He is not bound by linear time we are, and we live in the present. Prayer is not for God's benefit but our own. In that it is a tool to help all who choose, to grow in their faith.

 

[JohnDB]

Now as far as prayer goes...

Lets look at a few things that get God's attention.

Adam naming all of the animals.
What was going on was that in all reality God gave man the planet and all of it's occupants to be over...man in turn empowered all of the animals to have certain authorities. (God gives to man and man in turn gives)...
Same thing happened with Jesus sitting watching the offering box when the Widow put in her two copper coins. Jesus worked a relentless schedule but made and took a long bit of time waiting and watching for this woman to give out of her need and not her excess because she wanted to talk to God.

Then again in the Gospel of John we see the first line there is "In the beginning was the Word" meaning that all this time since the inception and beginning of all of mankind God wanted a dialogue with us. (And John was someone who would really know too)

So...I highly reccomend that you take time out of your busy day just to have a conversation with God...give him your time if nothing else. It is exactly what He wants. There is a method to his seeming madness...and it is for your benefit...not His.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I personally do not think that God knows the future before it happens. He can however control situations so that he can say, this, or that, will happen. Note a true story from my life where God predicted (shared with me) the future and it happened.

One morning I got up and walked into the hall and I heard a voice say "How would you like to be stabbed in the Valley". The Valley was the rough end of town, and the voice scared me a little, I wondered if I had done something to offend God. I had planned to go down to the Valley to ask people out to church as was my habit at the time. In the end I went anyway regardless of the fear. I walked up to the first person I met and asked him if he would like to go out to church. He said to me "I am an atheist, I don't believe in God". I just said "fine", but hoped to change his mind. He then proceeded to unbutton his shirt and showed me scar marks up and down his chest and stomach. He said to me, "I was attacked by a knife wielding man in the Valley some time ago and spent months recovering in hospital, How could God allow that to happen to me". Then I knew why God had said in the morning "How would I like to be stabbed?". God understood this man, but had a good plan for him. Some weeks latter this man came out to church and became a Christian.

 

[aiki]

I agree with megansophia. (assuming you mean omniscient and not omnipotent)
The bible is, supposedly, the word of God, right?
BUT, the bible has been proven wrong about a number of things. For example:
Adam and Eve and "all the beasts of the earth according to their kinds" were created at the same time, according to the bible. Geology and fossil records prove this to be false; there were ALOT of animals around before anything resembling a modern human (as Adam and Eve are traditionally depicted) were living on the Earth.

This is a naturalistic, pro-evolution interpretation of the facts. It does not actually disprove the claims of the Bible. What the geological and fossil record indicate is, in secular scientific circles, filtered through the naturalistic presupposition that God cannot and does not exist. It is not surprising, then, that, to those who don't believe there is a God, geology and fossils seem to justify this view. Those who do believe there is a God take the same geological and fossil record and interpret them accordingly. They, too, find in them good reason to believe God does exist. The facts haven't changed, however, only the presuppositions with which the individual approaches those facts.

Soooo... if the bible is the word of God and the bible is wrong then the word of God is wrong, so how can God be omniscient?

Since the Bible isn't wrong, your question is moot.

Peace to you.

 

[aiki]

Evolution does not rule out the existence of a god. It just determines that no god had any part to play in the formation or evolution of life on this planet.

I didn't actually say that "evolution rules out the existence of a god." I said that naturalistic philosophy informs the way non-Christians approach the facts of science. Evolution doesn't "determine that God had no part to play in the formation or evolution of life," it assumes, a priori, God's absence.

Also, the Bible is full of inconsistencies, irregularities, and contradictions; not to mention the impossibility of ressurecting a corpse.

Yes, this is a popular misrepresentation of the facts that anti-theists like to promote. All of the above assertions have been answered exhaustively over the years. Check out:

carm.org
icr.org
answersingenesis.org
Josh McDowell"s "Evidence that Demands a Verdict"
Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ"
Daniel Lane Craig
John Lennox

...and so on.

Peace to you.

 

[hlaltimus]

Yes, you are essentially right...it is somewhat "confusing", but only if you are seeking to study the right God. God is a being who is either finite or infinite, and if He has declared Himself to be infinite, and the vast scale and intricacy of known creation demands his infiniteness, then such a being cannot be properly fathomed by any finite agent. Partially understood, yes....perfectly understood, never. If we could understand Him fully we would be omniscient ourselves, and for mere mortals that would prove to be a fate worse than hell itself. The "god" whom you can understand fully, will surely prove to be the wrong one in the end.

However, this infinite Being can be partially understood to the satisfaction of all but a few tireless minds, but it is the work of a lifetime and necessitates a relationship with this Being that is endearing to both. You seem to be confusing, though, God's omniscience for his omnipotence, his omniscience being the unique, divine capacity to know all...without exception. The problem that is encountered by comprehending such a God, is that we are in possession of a consciousness that is admittedly fixed in conscious moment, while this God is in possession of, (and always has been in possession of,) a consciousness that is unfixed in conscious moment, and that in itself is painful to contemplate. When He has declared himself to be him,

"...who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8b

He is not by this speaking to us of a chronology or history of His life, past, present and future, but He is speaking to us of His unique, divine and solitary claim to an unfixed conscious moment. In other words, while we exercise a fixed conscious moment that can only apprehend our environment at only one particular moment in time relative to it's progression, God exercises an unfixed or truly infinite conscious moment, (which means to us intellectual acorns,) that all of our past, present and future constitutes His "NOW". Theologians have proposed that God "looks forward" unto that which was by free agent choices in time, and so conditionally foreordains those events, or unconditionally and arbitrarily predetermines certain future events so that they then must be, when in fact God is not obligated or limited to ordaining events or actions prior to our historical moment as He is still the one "who is and who is to come". God can only act from where He is, so if God is the one "who was", then both Arminius and Calvin were close to the truth in that they conceived Him to be an agent who exercised his will before all worlds, although they disagree as to how he exercised this will. But, since he is the God "Who is, who was and who is to come", He is not necessarily confined or limited to work only antecedent to our present moment, but can just as easily exercise His will consequent to our relative, present conscious moment, in what we would now call our "future". He is at any one moment in His consciousness looking forward to what will be, at what is, or back upon what what was, even though "what was" is your now! The person who can truly understand this, must be either divine or an irrational lunatic. We can't understand it, nor were we ever meant to as there is only room enough in this universe for one God, and we are very obviously not Him. We are all very much little "pots" before such a wonderful and awesome God, and we have very much to be beholden to Him for.

 

[freeport]

I don't understand the concept of God being omnipotent. If he was, then he'd know what he was going to do before he even did it. He stands above time and all other dimensions, so he would have known about his existence before he even existed. In order to make plans and decisions, you need to act over time. Which would mean that God has no free will, since everything was already predetermined. He can't be omnipotent if he doesn't have free will.

And then for the rest of us, it means we don't have a free will either. Our decisions aren't up to us, since God already knows what we're going to do and when we're going to do it. If I had a free will, God wouldn't know what I was doing tomorrow and therefore wouldn't be omnipotent.

Which then in turn leaves prayers obsolete, why would one pray for something when God already knows that person will make that prayer?

Sorry if that was confusing or didn't make sense.

On the first paragraph: God does stand above time, beyond time as we see it, which is subjectively.

On this:
"In order to make plans and decisions, you need to act over time. Which would mean that God has no free will, since everything was already predetermined."

No. God is outside of time entirely. Consider it like we live on a table in a box with the top cut off. He stands outside of the box entirely.

We are as a tree, all of creation. God is the gardener. We see things from the perspective of a growing tree. He is outside the tree entirely.

While this concept may be hard to imagine, consider ants: do ants know of your existence? Can they understand you? While we are made in the image of God, this does not mean our ways are His ways. His ways are higher then our ways as the Heavens are the earth.

As for our free will: free will is illusionary. It is a paradox. You do have freedom of choice. On the otherhand God does know everything you will do.

And He designed you that way.

So, you kind of don't have free will. If you are slave to sin, you do not have freedom but are bound to that which is the bad you do not wish to do. If you are a slave to righteousness then you are truly free.

Such a slave - one to righteousness - is free to do as they will, for their will is good.

They are then sons and daughters, no longer bondservants.

Simply believing the words of Jesus sets you truly free.

Now, the confusion you have here is quite simple: you are confusing "doing" with "being". This is what the world does, and many religions (including many Christians, unforunately). Freedom is about being, deeds come naturally from your being. Those who are good have good deeds come from them, those who are bad have bad deeds come from them.

Bad people trust in their own deeds, good people trust in deeds which come from God living in their hearts through the Spirit of God, which is the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

People want to judge words and deeds, and they get very caught up in that. Salvation is about being in a place of peace, love, and joy -- in quiet rest, however.

The slavery of those without free will is that their hearts are not at rest, they do not have goodness in them: no true joy.

Freedom, therefore, is more about being in a good place, wherever you are and whatever you do. Your home is always with you.

Slavery is about being imprisoned in a bad place, wherever you are and whatever you do.

 

[Van]

Hi Megansophia,

As was pointed out above, you seem to be talking about the doctrine of "omniscience" which means God is all knowing. People derived the doctrine by making some assumptions about what the Bible means. Others, looking at the same verses, derive a different definition for "omniscience." The concept that you are having difficulty with is that God knows everything, past, present, and future exhaustively. But that view is not accepted by other scholars, and they define "omniscience" as God knows everything He has chosen to know. This view eliminates the difficulties you mentioned. First, since He does not know the future exhaustively, He does not know what He will decide to do before He decides. This restores God's free will, His ability to do what He pleases and to react to changing circumstances. He can say if you repent, I will relent, but if you do not repent, I will bring calamity.

Second, this view of "omniscience" (God knowing all He has chosen to know) is consistent with the verse where God says He will forgive our sins and remember them no more forever. Thus, God can choose what He knows.

Third, this view eliminates the "everything is predetermined" problem. God predetermines some things and then He causes them to occur, He makes them happen. For example He hardened the hearts of Jews in order to fulfill His plan to spread the gospel to the gentiles. God makes plans and then He causes them to happen. Now lets take this to salvation, where God says whoever believes in Jesus will be saved. If He had chosen to know who would believe, we would not really be making a choice. But if God chose to set before us the choice of life or death, and allow us to make that choice, then He would fulfill His plan, and not predetermine who will believe.

Lastly, lets look at prayer. Why would God ask us to pray if He knows our hearts and knows the desires of our heart. First, from the above, this view of omniscience does not say God could not have chosen to know our hearts, maybe not, but probably yes. The story of Abraham and Issac describes an exception where God chose not to know Abraham's heart, and instead tested him. When Abraham drew his knife, God said, "Now I know..." But I think this is an exception for the purpose of God creating an illustration of commitment and sacrifice. So back to your difficulty, why pray when God knows what we will pray for. Jesus tells a story about persistent prayer, how a person begged and begged and finally got what she asked for. We are to pray all the time, both because it is an act of worship and illustrates our dependence on God. If our prayers are in the will of God, which means according to what God desires, then He will provide an affirmative answer. But lets say your child is ill, and you pray for your child to get well over and over. If God is calling the child home, your prayer is not in the will of God. So again, prayer, real prayer and not simply pulling the lever of the big slot machine in the sky, trains us in obedience.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

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