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Papal Supremacy

Amittai

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It's a kind of blend. Some people think the arguments stupid but go to which church they feel comfortable in. Others go through the motions of official justifications. From about 1050 to 1300, RC popes tried to rise above kings, from then till 1521 they were hijacked by French and Germans in turn. Luther got excommunicated prematurely (it was about money). I was an unusual kind of RC for most of my life and I know a lot of things about it. I know less about the eastern churches. I think the best philosophy is to regard the totality of all churches as a distant approximation to "the Church" and attend what section in your locality that you think is addressing the issues of belief in Christ and Another Comforter for you. Ecumenism needs to be at personal layperson level not podium level so beware the idea of organisational or sacramental unity.
 
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BobRyan

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So, somewhere on this forum, I asked people who are part of the high churches like the Catholics, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, etc. to explain clearly why they and not the other Churches claiming to be the One True Holy Apostocilic Catholic church who seemed to have just as strong of a historical claim are the true church. Well, it descended into a long nine-page conversation that went nowhere where few people even seemed to try and prove anything and I think that it was probably my fault in the way I asked the question.

Every denomination - including the Catholic one - can be expected to view their own doctrines and traditions as "correct" and every opposition to it by other denominations as "incorrect". So not too surprising at that point.

So after looking through what divides these churches specifically Catholicism and Orthodoxy the main division seems to be whether the Bishop of Rome is the main authority in the Church or not. The argument is about Papal Supremacy. So I am asking on here for Catholics to prove the doctrine of Papal Supremacy and Orthodox Christians to disprove it. I want this thread to be a debate between the two positions. Thank you in advance.

Catholic defense of its own acceptance of the Pope is to be expected. Are you asking for a Catholic argument that would cause non-Catholic denominations change their minds about the Pope?

Even the Orthodox church has a list of what it calls "Catholic heresies" that must be publically denounced by Catholic Christians wanting to join the Orthodox church.

Roman Catholic teachings denounced by Orthodox groups?
 
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A "lot" of Christian denominations would be able to disprove papal supremacy.


You should retract or amend your statement. It should read, "A lot of Christian faith groups argue against Papal supremacy." To say "disprove" proposes a situation that does not exist
 
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BobRyan

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You should retract or amend your statement. It should read, "A lot of Christian faith groups argue against Papal supremacy." To say "disprove" proposes a situation that does not exist

Good point - I have edited my post to favor a more "Free will" - each person must decide for themselves - context.
 
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Isa 22:22 is the basis for keys authority and papal succession.

20“In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. 21I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the people of Judah. 22I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 23I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will become a seat a of honor for the house of his father. 24All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots—all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars.

25“In that day,” declares the Lord Almighty, “the peg driven into the firm place will give way; it will be sheared off and will fall, and the load hanging on it will be cut down.” The Lord has spoken.


Matt 16:18,19 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
 
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Adventist Dissident

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It is the identification of the church with the keys that enables the conclusion that 666 and the mark of the beat refers to God's man or God people. Why? because in the O.T. 666 is only identified with God's man , Solomon, the Son of God, or God's people, Adonikim. It is the total number of gold talents recieved in tribute every year in tribute by Solomon. 1. Kings 10:14 , 2 Chron 9:13
14The weight of gold that came to Solomon each year was 666 talents,

13The weight of gold that came to Solomon each year was 666 talents,

and the total number from the clan of Adnoikim Ezra 2:13

13the descendants of Adonikam, 666;

the Mark of the Beast in Revelation

16And the second beast required all people small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark—the name of the beast or the number of its name.

18Here is a call for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and that number is 666
 
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The Liturgist

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regarding what?

Well, in the Roman Rite obviously Pope Francis is I would argue taking a decision which belongs to the diocesan bishops, if it belongs to anyone, which I am not convinced it does, in his bid to suppress the TLM.
 
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The Liturgist

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Note my main concern with Roman Catholicism is praying for the preservation of its beautiful liturgical patrimony; I am hugely opposed to the suppression of the TLM and the revocation of Summorum Pontificum. I think Roman Catholics, after hopefully getting a conservative Pope when Francis retires (I believe he indicated he woild likely follow Pope Benedict’s example), once the traditional liturgy is reinstated, should seek to restructure the Papal office along the lines of the Patriarchs of most of the Orthodox churches, as primus inter pares rather than primus sine paribus.
 
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Note my main concern with Roman Catholicism is praying for the preservation of its beautiful liturgical patrimony; I am hugely opposed to the suppression of the TLM and the revocation of Summorum Pontificum. I think Roman Catholics, after hopefully getting a conservative Pope when Francis retires (I believe he indicated he woild likely follow Pope Benedict’s example), once the traditional liturgy is reinstated, should seek to restructure the Papal office along the lines of the Patriarchs of most of the Orthodox churches, as primus inter pares rather than primus sine paribus.

interesting post. I am sure you mean well, but what you say is duplicitous. On one hand you argue for the traditional Latin Mass, but on the other you argue for what Hans King and the modernists have wanted for the last 60 years.
The Papacy is what has preserved the faith for the past two millennia. It is the kingdom of God, and by that it is a monarchy. The Pope has supreme authority over the Church, primus sine paribus, as you said. If the Papacy is altered to undermine that authority, then that is the end of the Church. If we had primis sine paribus in the fourth century, then we would all have been Arians, as the majority of bishops would have voted that way, but it is not that way
God rules a kingdom, not a democracy. One either denies himself takes up his cross and follows the king, or he doesn’t. There is no debate and discussion about the commands of God. It is either obey or not. God gives us complete free will to make that choice.
As for me, I choose obedience rather than sacrifice.
The Church is in the hands of the Holy Spirit and the immaculate heart of Mary. We have a promise that in the end her immaculate heart will triumph. She alone of all creatures knows God intimately, as she is daughter of the Father, mother of the Son and spouse of the Holy Spirit
The way forward is not democracy for the Church. The way forward is repentance and obedience
 
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Albion

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The Papacy is what has preserved the faith for the past two millennia.
That's a HIGHLY dubious theory.

It could easily be argued that Papal pretentions accounted for the fracturing of Christianity, first between East and West (yes, that was the Pope's doing), and then later, with the Protestant Reformation (again, caused by the Papacy in several different ways).
 
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The Liturgist

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interesting post. I am sure you mean well, but what you say is duplicitous.

Respectfully, I assume and hope you did not intentionally use the word duplicitous with full knowledge of its meaning, because that word literally means “deceitful,” and nothing I have written herein was intended to deceive, nor do I see how my opinions about what the Roman Catholic Church ought to do in order to shore itself up could possibly amount to deception, given that they are my true and honest opinions.

To put it another way, if you characterize a statement someone makes as duplicitous, you cannot logically assume they mean well. A more appropriate word choice would have been “erroneous,” which unlike duplicitous does not carry connotations of dishonesty.

On one hand you argue for the traditional Latin Mass, but on the other you argue for what Hans King and the modernists have wanted for the last 60 years.

I can assure you I am not a theological modernist; the limit to which I have any use for modernism is in industrial design (the 1961 Lincoln Continental convertible comes to mind, as well as various computers, particularly those built by Apple, and the final generation of Sun Microsystems and Oracle machines) graphics design (for example, the Swiss school of typography), architecture (especially the Lever House, and also the Seagram Building by Mies van der Rohe and the gorgeous Four Seasons restaurant by Philip Johnson, where I was fortunate to dine before its closure), and some modernist music, specifically the film scores of Alex North (specifically, his score for Spartacus, and his brilliant unused score for 2001: A Space Odyssey) and Jerry Goldsmith (who did the music for a number of films, some highlights of which are The Wind and the Lion, Patton, The Andromeda Strain, Logan’s Run, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, and a few other Star Trek films, most notably First Contact, and the theme for Star Trek: The Next Generation, before his untimely death in 2004), as well as a few other composers I think could be classified as modernist, although to my knowledge they did not identify as such, specifically the brilliant Anglican organists Herbert Howells, T. Tertius Noble and Francis Jackson, who reposed in the Lord on January the 10th at the age of 104, and had a funeral in York Minster, where he spent much of his career as organist.

However as a theological system, modernism is dreadful; I wish it were not even called Modernism, so that the architecture of the likes of Mies van der Rohe, the paintings of Mondrian, or the exquisite typefaces of the Swiss school, such as Univers and Helvetica, were not tainted by association with bad theology. And of course, postmodern theology is even worse.

The chief reason why I want a hypothetical future Bishop of Rome to revert the liturgical changes and other actions of Pope Francis, and then permanently revert the powers of his office to those historically held during the reign of Pope St. Gregory the Great, or better yet, Pope Celestine,* is to preclude another disaster of theological modernism.

The seeming liquidation of the legacy of Pope St. John Paul II, and even more so, the legacy of Pope Benedict XVI, has been horrible to watch, and it is my belief that the Roman church needs to do everything in its power to prevent that from happening again. Rome has been very lucky to have been blessed with a number of good Popes since the Counter Reformation, starting with Pope Pius V, and Pope St. Pius X was particularly worthy of praise. There have also been less successful popes, however, particularly surrounding Vatican I and Vatican II, both of which led to schisms.

In addition, as immensely talented as Pius V, Pius X and Benedict XVI were with regards to the liturgy, one also encounters popes like Pius XII who modified the liturgy for no good reason, specifically in the form of the changes made to the ancient Paschal Triduum, which dated back to St. Gregory the Great and which directly corresponded to the Byzantine Rite in a number of ways, including the wording of the prayers of the Mass of the Presanctified, the color of the vestments, the timing and the number of Paschal prophecies read during the Vigils service on Easter Even (which in terms of the structure of its synaxis followed the same pattern as the Byzantine Rite Vesperal Divine Liturgy on the same day, as used by Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Rite Catholics such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church).

Additionally, one of the two crowning liturgical achievements of Pope St. Pius X, the motu proprio Tra le sollecitudini is now seemingly ignored in a very large number of rural parishes in the Western US; indeed, it depresses me to note that I have never personally visited a Novus Ordo mass anywhere in the Western US that was entirely faithful to the instructions on sacred music provided by that motu proprio, and most Novus Ordo masses I have attended out here seem to disregard it utterly. Gone is the Gregorian chant which is supposed to be the standard form of ecclesiastical music in the Roman Rite, and meanwhile, guitars, pianos and other instruments the use of which is not actually licit or canonical seem to predominate.

The Papacy is what has preserved the faith for the past two millennia. It is the kingdom of God, and by that it is a monarchy. The Pope has supreme authority over the Church, primus sine paribus, as you said.

Firstly, the faith was preserved for the past few millenia chiefly thanks to the actions of the ecumenical councils, which together with equivalent decisions by the Oriental Orthodox, after ill-advised action by Leo I, collectively condemned Arianism, Semi-Arianism, Apollinarianism, Pneumatomacchianism, Nestorianism, Monothelitism and Iconoclasm. On the subject of Monothelitism, by the way, this creates something of a hole in your argument, because Pope Honorius I was a proponent of Monothelitism.

Additionally, reverting back to the Council of Nicaea, Canon VI clearly declares that Alexandria and Antioch have the same authority as Rome (these were, along with Cyprus, the three surviving autocephalous churches after the destruction of Jerusalem, before the establishment of the Pentarchy; Canon VII, meanwhile, takes the first step towards restoring the authority of Jerusalem, although in 325 the port of Caesarea remained the Metropolitical See for the former province of Judaea, then called Syria Palaestina.

Actually, a number of the twenty canons instituted by the Council of Nicaea which are still upheld by the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox have, for reasons I cannot explain, ceased to be observed in the West, despite their clear theological, liturgical and ecclesiological justification, as one can tell by reading them. Given the centrality of the Council of Nicaea to our faith, it seems to me that these canons ought to be in the very opening chapters of the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law, just as they are in the opening chapters of the Eastern Orthodox equivalent, the Pedalion.

If the Papacy is altered to undermine that authority, then that is the end of the Church. If we had primis sine paribus in the fourth century, then we would all have been Arians, as the majority of bishops would have voted that way, but it is not that way

Umm, seriously, no; the Bishop of Rome was not even present at the Council of Nicaea, and it was Pope St. Alexander, the Bishop of Alexandria, who, together with his Holy Synod, anathematized Arius and Arianism, an act subsequently upheld at the Council of Nicaea thanks to a brilliant defense of Trinitarian Orthodoxy presented by St. Athanasius, who after much resistance, was ultimately dragged to the cathedra of Alexandria and became the successor of St. Alexander on the apostolic throne of St. Mark. The most prominent bishop absent from the Council of Nicaea was the Bishop of Rome, who sent legates in his place, although he did support St. Alexander and Athanasius. The biggest contribution made by the Bishop of Rome during the course of the Arian persecution of Alexandrian Christians was providing assistance to the exiled St. Athanasius, which was very important, however, it is certainly not the case that any of the bishops of Rome in the fourth century were directly and solely responsible for the demise of Arianism.

Indeed, if they had the power you suggest they had, the Arian controversy would have ended before the Council of Nicaea, rather than dragging on for over 60 years.

God rules a kingdom, not a democracy. One either denies himself takes up his cross and follows the king, or he doesn’t. There is no debate and discussion about the commands of God. It is either obey or not. God gives us complete free will to make that choice.
As for me, I choose obedience rather than sacrifice.

Obedience to God is inherently a sacrifice. We have to put to death the old man within us, cutting ourselves off from worldly pleasures, so as to offer ourselves and our lives as a living sacrifice to God, for Him to do with what He deems best. This is why in Catholic and Orthodox sacramental theology, Holy Matrimony and Holy Orders are both interpreted as sacraments, because they constitute a sacrifice, a rededication of our very selves to the service of God either in raising families or serving Him in the church.

The way forward is not democracy for the Church. The way forward is repentance and obedience

Indeed, and I am not calling for democracy in the Roman Catholic Church. I am calling for the Roman Catholic Church to adhere to ancient canon law from the Patristic period, which defines the role of the Pope as Primus Inter Pares, and to re-enter into communion with the Eastern churches and make decisions as they were made historically, by means of what the Eastern churches call the Holy Synod (for all practical purposes, the College of Cardinals would logically be the Holy Synod of the Roman Catholic Church, since its functions are roughly equivalent to that of the Holy Synods of the Orthodox churches). In this manner, a repeat of the liturgical disaster now unfolding could be averted, by preventing anyone from wielding sufficient power to unilaterally change the various liturgical rites of the Catholic Churches in communion with the Pope of Rome.

*Technically Archbishop Celestine, as the Roman pontiffs did not adopt the style of Papem, or Pope, until around the year 530 AD, and indeed did not even style themselves as Pontifex Maximus until the reign of Leo I around 440 AD; the title of Pope was historically used only by the Patriarch of Alexandria, which is why to this day we have His Beatitude the Greek Orthodox Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa Theodore II, and His Holiness the Coptic Orthodox Pope of Alexandria Tawadros II (which in an amusing coincidence, is the Coptic form of the name Theodore II; this is fitting since these two Popes, despite one being Eastern Orthodox and the other Oriental Orthodox, have a very close working relationship, and the two Orthodox churches of Alexandria have the second closest relationship of any two EO and OO churches, after the relationship between the Antiochian Orthodox Church and the Syriac Orthodox Church).
 
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concretecamper

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It could easily be argued that Papal pretentions accounted for the fracturing of Christianity, first between East and West (yes, that was the Pope's doing), and then later, with the Protestant Reformation (again, caused by the Papacy in several different ways).
You are being kind in saying "It could be argued". The fact is that lack of obedience IS the cause of all leaving His Church.
 
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The Liturgist

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You are being kind in saying "It could be argued". The fact is that lack of obedience IS the cause of all leaving His Church.

In all fairness to everyone, I don’t see how one could accuse the Eastern Orthodox in 1054 or the Oriental Orthodox in 451 of disobedience, since they did not engage in any overt actions that warranted their excommunication. It should also be noted, happily, that for the most part, Rome, the Oriental Orthodox, the Eastern Orthodox and the Assyrians have stopped anathematizing each other (with the exception of some of the more hardline Orthodox jurisdictions; specifically I believe the Copts still regard the Assyrians as anathema, and the Ethiopians likewise, and some Ethiopians regard all Chalcedonians as Nestorians; the wounds of schisms will take a while to heal).

However, in the case of the schism of 451 the Roman church was not the instigator of the problem; the great villains of Chalcedon were Eutyches and Ibas, because the former deceived and tricked Pope Dioscorus of Alexandria, and the latter was basically a conniving crypto-Nestorian.
 
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concretecamper

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In all fairness to everyone, I don’t see how one could accuse the Eastern Orthodox in 1054 or the Oriental Orthodox in 451 of disobedience, since they did not engage in any overt actions that warranted their excommunication. It should also be noted, happily, that for the most part, Rome, the Oriental Orthodox, the Eastern Orthodox and the Assyrians have stopped anathematizing each other (with the exception of some of the more hardline Orthodox jurisdictions; specifically I believe the Copts still regard the Assyrians as anathema, and the Ethiopians likewise, and some Ethiopians regard all Chalcedonians as Nestorians; the wounds of schisms will take a while to heal).

However, in the case of the schism of 451 the Roman church was not the instigator of the problem; the great villains of Chalcedon were Eutyches and Ibas, because the former deceived and tricked Pope Dioscorus of Alexandria, and the latter was basically a conniving crypto-Nestorian.
All I'm saying is the EO and the protestant founders all refused to submit to Papal Authority. Although there may have been other minor issues, the main rub was Papal Supremacy. If Peter leads His Church, then refusing to submit to Papal Authority is a lack of obedience.
 
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All I'm saying is the EO and the protestant founders all refused to submit to Papal Authority. Although there may have been other minor issues, the main rub was Papal Supremacy. If Peter leads His Church, then refusing to submit to Papal Authority is a lack of obedience.

On the one hand, he said, Catholics cannot give up the claim to papal primacy; on the other hand, they cannot regard "as the only possible form and, consequently, as binding on all Christians the form this primacy has taken in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries." "In other words, Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium. When the Patriarch Athenagoras, on July 25, 1967, on the occasion of the Popes visit to Phanar, designated him as the successor of St. Peter, as the most esteemed among us, as one also presides in charity, this great Church leader was expressing the essential content of the doctrine of primacy as it was known in the first millennium. Rome need not ask for more. Reunion could take place in this context if, on the one hand, the East would cease to oppose as heretical the developments that took place in the West in the second millennium and would accept the Catholic Church as legitimate and orthodox in the form she had acquired in the course of that development, while, on the other hand, the West would recognize the Church of the East as orthodox and legitimate in the form she has always had." - Cardinal Ratzinger in 1976
 
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The Liturgist

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All I'm saying is the EO and the protestant founders all refused to submit to Papal Authority. Although there may have been other minor issues, the main rub was Papal Supremacy. If Peter leads His Church, then refusing to submit to Papal Authority is a lack of obedience.

The problem with that argument is that the Pope had no authority outside of the Latin Church. The bishops of the other autocephalous churches were under no obligation to follow his instructions. Indeed, if they were, the Ecumenical Councils would not even have been necessary.
 
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The Liturgist

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