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Papal Supremacy

Zachm531

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So, somewhere on this forum, I asked people who are part of the high churches like the Catholics, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, etc. to explain clearly why they and not the other Churches claiming to be the One True Holy Apostocilic Catholic church who seemed to have just as strong of a historical claim are the true church. Well, it descended into a long nine-page conversation that went nowhere where few people even seemed to try and prove anything and I think that it was probably my fault in the way I asked the question. So after looking through what divides these churches specifically Catholicism and Orthodoxy the main division seems to be whether the Bishop of Rome is the main authority in the Church or not. The argument is about Papal Supremacy. So I am asking on here for Catholics to prove the doctrine of Papal Supremacy and Orthodox Christians to disprove it. I want this thread to be a debate between the two positions. Thank you in advance.
I also want to add that, its not just the supremacy of the Pope that makes Catholicism different, another huge thing is that we have a living magisterium. This magisterium is able to definitively settle issues on doctrine, world events, church practice etc. The orthodox can call synods but those are not universally binding. No other church has a living magisterium.
Is it always used? No. Why isn’t it being used? I dont know.
But, let me give an analogy.
If someone breaks into my house and I have a gun, but I choose not to use it, that its completely different then if someone breaks into my house and I have no gun.
 
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Zachm531

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Pope Hadrians Letter from Nicea 2 Session 2

“you embrace the judgment of the Church
of blessed Peter, chief of the Apostles, and, as of old your predecessors the holy Emperors acted, so you, too, venerating it with honour,
love with all your heart his Vicar, and if your sacred majesty follow by preference their orthodox Faith, according to our
holy Roman Church. May the chief of the Apostles himself, to whom the power was given by our Lord God to bind and remit sins
in heaven and earth, be often your protector, and trample all barbarous nations under your feet, and everywhere make you conquerors. For let sacred authority lay open the marks of his dignity, and how great veneration ought to be shown to his, the highest See , by all the faithful in the world. For the Lord set him who bears the keys of the kingdom of heaven
as chief over all, and by Him is he honoured with this privilege, by which the keys of the
kingdom of heaven
are entrusted to him. He, therefore, that was preferred with so exalted an honour was thought worthy to confess that Faith on which the Church of Christ is founded.” “A blessed reward followed that blessed confession, by the preaching of which the holy universal Church was illumined, and from it the other Churches of God have derived the proofs of Faith. For the blessed Peter himself, the chief of the Apostles, who first sat in the Apostolic See
, left the chiefship of his Apostolate, and pastoral care, to his successors, who are to sit in his most holy seat forever. And that power of authority, which he received from the Lord God our Saviour, he too bestowed and delivered by divine command to the Pontiffs, his successors, etc.”
“If you persevere in that orthodox Faith in which you have begun, and the sacred and venerable images be by your means erected again in those parts, as by the lord, the Emperor Constantine of pious memory, and the blessed Helen, who promulgated the
orthodox Faith, and exalted the holy Catholic
and Apostolic Roman Church your spiritual mother, and with the other orthodox
Emperors venerated it as the head of all Churches,” “Faith, and exalted still more your holy mother, the Catholic
and Roman and spiritual Church,
and with the
orthodox Emperors who ruled after them, and so your most pious and heaven-protected name likewise will be set forth as that of another Constantine and another Helena, being renowned and praised through the whole world, by whom the holy Catholic
and Apostolic Church is restored. And especially if you follow the tradition of the
orthodox Faith of the Church of the holy Peter and Paul , the chief Apostles, and embrace their Vicar, as the Emperors who reigned before you of old both honoured their Vicar, and loved him with all their heart: and if your sacred majesty honour the most holy Roman Church of the chief Apostles, to whom was given power by God the Word himself to loose and to bind sins in heaven and earth. For they will extend their shield over your power, and all barbarous nations shall be put under your feet: and wherever you go they will make you conquerors. For the holy and chief Apostles themselves, who set up the Catholic and orthodox Faith, have laid it down as a written law that all who after them are to be successors of their seats, should hold their Faith and remain in it to the end.”
“For he never could have ranked second, save for the authority of our holy Catholic
and Apostolic Church
, as is plain to all. Because if he be named Universal, above the
holy Roman Church which has a prior rank, which is the head of all the Churches of God
, it is certain that he shows himself as a rebel against the holy Councils, and a heretic
. For, if he is Universal, he is recognized to have the Primacy even over the
Church of our See, which appears ridiculous to all faithful Christians : because in the whole world the chief rank and power was given to the blessed Apostle Peter by the Redeemer of the world himself; and through the same Apostle, whose place we unworthily hold, the

holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church holds the first rank, and the authority of power, now and for ever, so that if any one, which we believe not, has called him, or assents to his being called Universal, let him
know that he is estranged from the orthodox Faith, and a rebel against our holy Catholic
and Apostolic Church.” “Peter and Peter, the God-loved presbyters and legates of the
Apostolic See , said:
Let the holy Synod say whether it receives the letters of the most holy Pope of Old Rome.

The holy Synod said: We follow, we receive, we admit them.”

- CHURCH FATHERS: Second Council of Nicaea
 
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HARK!

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MOD HAT ON

350015_0f282d4b538245f7d5ab333c90dad940.jpeg


MOD HAT OFF
 
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jamiec

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Well, I am sure I can find one, but look at this way: I am not Catholic, and I love his preaching, which is also doctrinally traditionally Catholic, and at the same time was extremely timely during the era of moral decay in the 1950s through 70s; this preaching, which converted many to Catholic, and which resonated with flawless moral theology and deeply moving accounts of the Passion of our Lord, as well as homilies against materialism, secularism and communism, strike me as grounds enough for the Heroic Virtue aspect of sainthood. As for the other aspects of his canonization, the Roman Catholic Church requires two confirmed miracles, unlike the less formal process of glorifying saints in the Orthodox Church, which I think is superior, at least for one compelling reason, that being that martyrs are instantly acknowledged as saints in the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian churches. I would assume/hope this also applies to Sui Juris Eastern Catholic Churches which are supposed to be autonomous.
Thanks.

To me, that sounds good for what it is, but no more than should be expected of a half-decent priest.

I don't see anything *heroic* or unusual here - the mark of a big-S Saint, is *heroism* in the practice of virtue; or it used to be. Saying good things, may be admirable, but it is not, by itself, compelling evidence of Christian holiness. Holiness in creatures, as I understand it, is an especially intense and *consistent* & *all-inclusive* expression, of the Charity of Christ - it is qualitatively far beyond even the very best purely natural virtue in creatures, because it is intrinsically super-natural, and thus, something that has no origin but God.
 
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The Liturgist

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Thanks.

To me, that sounds good for what it is, but no more than should be expected of a half-decent priest.

I don't see anything *heroic* or unusual here - the mark of a big-S Saint, is *heroism* in the practice of virtue; or it used to be. Saying good things, may be admirable, but it is not, by itself, compelling evidence of Christian holiness. Holiness in creatures, as I understand it, is an especially intense and *consistent* & *all-inclusive* expression, of the Charity of Christ - it is qualitatively far beyond even the very best purely natural virtue in creatures, because it is intrinsically super-natural, and thus, something that has no origin but God.

Recall however that a saint is supposed to be anyone the Church has reason to believe in Heaven, for example, miracles. The Orthodox churches have a faster and simpler process, for example, martyrs are glorified automatically.

In the case of Archbishop Fulton Sheen, he was much more than a half-decent priest. He was the finest Roman Catholic preacher anyone I have met has seen since the dawn of television. I like to think St. Dominic Guzman was that good, considering he founded the Order of Preachers (and by the way, the Inquisition was not implemented until roughly a decadeafter St. Dominic and St. Francis had reposed, and I believe they would have objected to it, and objected even moreso to the involvement of their orders in it; St. Dominic for his part wanted to convert the Cathars, Albigensians and other heretics through preaching, which you can’t do if they’re dead).
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I also want to add that, its not just the supremacy of the Pope that makes Catholicism different, another huge thing is that we have a living magisterium. This magisterium is able to definitively settle issues on doctrine, world events, church practice etc. The orthodox can call synods but those are not universally binding. No other church has a living magisterium.
Is it always used? No. Why isn’t it being used? I dont know.
But, let me give an analogy.
If someone breaks into my house and I have a gun, but I choose not to use it, that its completely different then if someone breaks into my house and I have no gun.
In the New Covenant Jesus is our High Priest and we can go directly to Him for forgiveness of sins Hebrews 4:14-16 Hebrews 7:23-28 There is no mediator between God and man as Jesus is our Meditator administering on our behalf. Hebrews 8:6. We do not need a living magisterium, because Jesus is the Word and has already given us the manual on how to live up to the Second Coming of Jesus and the signs to watch for so we won’t be deceived, that manual is the 66 books that make up the Holy Bible. God’s church are those who follow God’s Word.

God bless.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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In the New Covenant Jesus is our High Priest and we can go directly to Him for forgiveness of sins. Hebrews 7:23-25 There is no mediator between God and man as Jesus is our Meditator administering on our behalf. Hebrews 8:6. We do not need a living magisterium, because Jesus is the Word and has already given us the manual on how to live up to the Second Coming of Jesus and the signs to watch for so we won’t be deceived, that manual is the 66 books that make up the Holy Bible. God’s church are those who follow God’s Word.

God bless.

So, quick question...

What is this, if not a SDA version of "magisterium"???

As president of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada (SDACC), a position which he has held since 2010, Johnson represents the union on 28 boards and committees with the North American Division and General Conference. He serves as chairman on 22 committees within the SDACC, such as SDACC Board of Directors, ADRA Canada,
Presidential – Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada

It sounds like there is little difference between a "General Conference" and the a council (ecumenical or otherwise), including the college of Cardinals.

--Doctrine decided, interpreted and administered by a Council;

Adventists Belief about The Holy Scriptures - Adventist.org:

This statement was approved and voted by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists Administrative Committee (ADCOM) and was released by the Office of the President, Robert S. Folkenberg, at the General Conference session in Utrecht, the Netherlands, June 29-July 8, 1995.

So, when it comes to earthy maters and the Church, the SDA decides on it's dogmas based on the Bible and "Official Statements" which amount to a SDA version of Canon Law.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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So, quick question...

What is this, if not a SDA version of "magisterium"???

As president of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada (SDACC), a position which he has held since 2010, Johnson represents the union on 28 boards and committees with the North American Division and General Conference. He serves as chairman on 22 committees within the SDACC, such as SDACC Board of Directors, ADRA Canada,
Presidential – Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada

It sounds like there is little difference between a "General Conference" and the a council (ecumenical or otherwise), including the college of Cardinals.

--Doctrine decided, interpreted and administered by a Council;

Adventists Belief about The Holy Scriptures - Adventist.org:

This statement was approved and voted by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists Administrative Committee (ADCOM) and was released by the Office of the President, Robert S. Folkenberg, at the General Conference session in Utrecht, the Netherlands, June 29-July 8, 1995.

So, when it comes to earthy maters and the Church, the SDA decides on it's dogmas based on the Bible and "Official Statements" which amount to a SDA version of Canon Law.
Yes, there is a president of the SDA General Conference. He nor do the members place what he says as being equal to or above the scriptures.

According to the post I quoted from by this statement it appears the pope holds a different role than the SDA conference president. I don’t think it changes anything from the post you quoted me from. :)

I also want to add that, its not just the supremacy of the Pope that makes Catholicism different, another huge thing is that we have a living magisterium. This magisterium is able to definitively settle issues on doctrine, world events, church practice etc. The orthodox can call synods but those are not universally binding. No other church has a living magisterium.
 
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Mountainmike

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Just like many other sects of Christianity, Roman catholics are rooted on a single misinterpreted verse. Take the verse away and they have nothing.
It is A big combination of verses, and the faith was handed down ( the meaning of paradosis, translated as “tradition” but has unhelpful connotations in colloquial English ) long before there was a New Testament! What was handed down is catholic doctrine.

Take the church fathers, read ignatius to smyrneans who got his doctrine from John the apostle. Ignatius asserts the power of succession bishops and a real presence in Eucharist , valid only if presided by one in succession.

If you want to assert misinterpretation, it’s a very long list, including such as John the apostle!

What do you say is the meaning of the “ power to bind an loose”, or the power of keys of the house of David. They must mean something even if you don’t like the catholic version!
 
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