Pandemic started in a lab:

[Say it aint so]

What "changes"? You seem to be implying that Sweden drastically changed their pandemic strategy. But they really didn't. There were recommendations, but no mandates.

I am not going to repeat posts I sent to you prior. That's right, they fell for the propaganda. They fell for the peer pressure. LOL.

 

[probinson]

I am not going to repeat posts I sent to you prior.

No matter what posts you sent, Sweden never mandated masks and/or lockdowns.

That's right, they fell for the propaganda. They fell for the peer pressure. LOL.

Indeed. When the whole world was frantically shrieking about how Sweden was killing people, that was an immense amount of pressure. Thankfully, they didn't really capitulate much at all, and now we see the results. As is to be expected, the shriekers are still baselessly shrieking while Sweden is experiencing the lowest excess mortality in Europe.

 

[Say it aint so]

No matter what posts you sent, Sweden never mandated masks and/or lockdowns.



Indeed. When the whole world was frantically shrieking about how Sweden was killing people, that was an immense amount of pressure. Thankfully, they didn't really capitulate much at all, and now we see the results. As is to be expected, the shriekers are still baselessly shrieking while Sweden is experiencing the lowest excess mortality in Europe.

Yes indeed. Sweden took a different approach. That's true. I agree with that, but idea they were pressured to change their course was because of world wide peer pressure, and not their increasing covid rates is absurd. Let me ask you this, are you American? If so, what do think would have happened if we adhered to Sweden's approach? You think fewer deaths or more deaths? Keep in mind the US is not Sweden by no stretch of the imagination. Keep in mind our obesity and diabete rates as compared to Sweden. What do you think? I think you know what I think by the pictures of make shift morgues I sent you.

 

[probinson]

That's true. I agree with that, but idea they were pressured to change their course was because of world wide peer pressure, and not their increasing covid rates is absurd.

You keep pretending that Sweden "changed course". But they did not. This is the crux of your error that makes every other aspect of your argument moot.

Let me ask you this, are you American?

Yes.

If so, what do think would have happened if we adhered to Sweden's approach? You think fewer deaths or more deaths?

Focused protection was always the right answer. Sending elderly patients that were infected with COVID back to their nursing homes to make room in the hospitals ranks up there as one of the worst public health policies in modern history. Instead of sending infected elderly back to infect and kill more elderly, they should have treated them at the hospital and worked to isolate those who were sick. Had they done that, there likely would have been far fewer deaths.

Current CDC data shows that despite only making up 6.9% of the population, those over the age of 75 account for a whopping 53.6% of US COVID deaths.

Consider this letter from NYDoH.

That part highlighted in yellow is in large part why the elderly bore the brunt of the mortality.

It is abundantly clear to anyone looking at this data that the pandemic response failed our elderly.

Keep in mind the US is not Sweden by no stretch of the imagination. Keep in mind our obesity and diabete rates as compared to Sweden.

Right. Which is largely why the US saw such high numbers. With over 1/3 of the population being obese and ~300,000 obesity related deaths each year, it's no wonder we experienced such high mortality.

What do you think? I think you know what I think by the pictures of make shift morgues I sent you.

But those makeshift morgues were incredibly temporary, and extremely isolated.

Are you old enough to remember the 1,000 bed USNS Comfort Hospital Ship that was sent to NYC to deal with overcrowded hospitals? Yet that ship only treated a total of 182 patients in less than a month before being sent away.

Hospital Ship Comfort Ends NYC COVID-19 Mission After Treating 182 Patients - USNI News

After a nearly-month-long mission helping New York in the COVID-19 pandemic fight, hospital ship USNS Comfort (T-AH-20) will leave its temporary berth – likely for its Virginia homeport – and prepare for a possible assignment elsewhere. Medical teams aboard Comfort, which last month quickly...

news.usni.org

The point is, there was a whole lot of overreaction from people who should have known better, and while a makeshift morgue may have been necessary in extremely isolated cases and for very short periods of time, it was not widespread nor was it the norm by any means.

 

[KCfromNC]

Sweden "got it right" by mostly staying out of it.

And their policy decision to do so lead to higher death rates then neighboring countries.

I mean, if the spin has now shifted to "the government shouldn't get involved even when people are dying", that's fine, embrace it. I mean, I even mentioned an analogue earlier from other right-wing sources, where the messaging was that some old people might have to die to keep the economy going (an idea echoed in graphs in this thread, I'll add).

But it is weird to say the government's policy was correct and then try to hide the impact of that policy by, e.g. averaging out 2020 data by combining it with pre-pandemic numbers. The flip flopping back and forth between the two reads more like a rationalization than anything to do with actually looking at the numbers and coming to a conclusion.

 

[KCfromNC]

Well, now we know the results of that "experiment", and it has been a smashing success.

View attachment 329855

Seems like the blue line does something quite different than the rest of them in 2020.

 

[KCfromNC]

View attachment 329867

It is abundantly clear to anyone looking at this data that the pandemic response failed our elderly.

I could have sworn similar data on the age-based mortality in Sweden was used to prop up the idea that "Sweden "got it right" by mostly staying out of it."
Interesting it is now spun the other way when there's a chance to attack US responses to the pandemic.

 

[Say it aint so]

You keep pretending that Sweden "changed course". But they did not. This is the crux of your error that makes every other aspect of your argument moot.



Yes.



Focused protection was always the right answer. Sending elderly patients that were infected with COVID back to their nursing homes to make room in the hospitals ranks up there as one of the worst public health policies in modern history. Instead of sending infected elderly back to infect and kill more elderly, they should have treated them at the hospital and worked to isolate those who were sick. Had they done that, there likely would have been far fewer deaths.

Current CDC data shows that despite only making up 6.9% of the population, those over the age of 75 account for a whopping 53.6% of US COVID deaths.

Consider this letter from NYDoH.

View attachment 329868

That part highlighted in yellow is in large part why the elderly bore the brunt of the mortality.

View attachment 329867

It is abundantly clear to anyone looking at this data that the pandemic response failed our elderly.



Right. Which is largely why the US saw such high numbers. With over 1/3 of the population being obese and ~300,000 obesity related deaths each year, it's no wonder we experienced such high mortality.



But those makeshift morgues were incredibly temporary, and extremely isolated.

Are you old enough to remember the 1,000 bed USNS Comfort Hospital Ship that was sent to NYC to deal with overcrowded hospitals? Yet that ship only treated a total of 182 patients in less than a month before being sent away.

Hospital Ship Comfort Ends NYC COVID-19 Mission After Treating 182 Patients - USNI News

After a nearly-month-long mission helping New York in the COVID-19 pandemic fight, hospital ship USNS Comfort (T-AH-20) will leave its temporary berth – likely for its Virginia homeport – and prepare for a possible assignment elsewhere. Medical teams aboard Comfort, which last month quickly...

news.usni.org

The point is, there was a whole lot of overreaction from people who should have known better, and while a makeshift morgue may have been necessary in extremely isolated cases and for very short periods of time, it was not widespread nor was it the norm by any means.

I already sent the changes Sweden made with mask wearing recommendations, shorting hours, and cutting the number allowed to meet at establishments, and distance learning. So would those qualify as changes or not? You excused it as peer pressure.

You never answered my straight forward questions. If we took the Sweden approach would more or less people died during covid?

 

[probinson]

Seems like the blue line does something quite different than the rest of them in 2020.

Seems like the blue line is lower than every other line, even with a slight increase in 2020.

 

[probinson]

I already sent the changes Sweden made with mask wearing recommendations

You do know the difference between a "recommendation" and a "mandate", right? And you do know that the last time you posted this, I posted an image from an article showing extremely few people in Sweden actually heeded this "recommendation", right?

shorting hours, and cutting the number allowed to meet at establishments, and distance learning. So would those qualify as changes or not?

Sure. There were some changes. Sweden did implement some mitigation measures, but there's not question they were FAR more relaxed than the rest of the world.

You excused it as peer pressure.

Sure. If you had the whole world baselessly screeching about how you were killing people in some grand experiment (by simply following your pre-established pandemic plan), you'd be feeling some pressure/

You never answered my straight forward questions.

If I had a dime for every straightforward question I've asked you that you've failed to answer in this thread...

If we took the Sweden approach would more or less people died during covid?

I did answer this in detail. See post #303.

 

[probinson]

But it is weird to say the government's policy was correct and then try to hide the impact of that policy by, e.g. averaging out 2020 data by combining it with pre-pandemic numbers.

You sure are persistent(ly wrong).

Here is the data year-by-year, again.

So yes, while there was a slight increase in all-cause mortality in 2020, we can see that it was, in part, because of a lower average mortality in 2019, and it is in no way out of line with historical all-cause mortality rates. To listen to lockdown advocates talk, you'd think there was a massive spike in mortality in Sweden, but the data shows that to be a farce.

Further, age-standardized mortality, as compared to other countries that followed "THE SCIENCE™" and did "the right thing™" is LOWER in Sweden through ALL years of the pandemic (except for Norway in 2020, but then, Norway is trending in the wrong direction now...)

 

[ozso]

You sure are persistent(ly wrong).

Here is the data year-by-year, again.

View attachment 329967

So yes, while there was a slight increase in all-cause mortality in 2020, we can see that it was, in part, because of a lower average mortality in 2019, and it is in no way out of line with historical all-cause mortality rates. To listen to lockdown advocates talk, you'd think there was a massive spike in mortality in Sweden, but the data shows that to be a farce.

Further, age-standardized mortality, as compared to other countries that followed "THE SCIENCE™" and did "the right thing™" is LOWER in Sweden through ALL years of the pandemic (except for Norway in 2020, but then, Norway is trending in the wrong direction now...)

View attachment 329968

Roughly the same number of people died, but the cause of death was predominantly listed as Covid, or from complications due to Covid, or Covid related. Like it was being said in 2020, someone gets hit by a fast moving train, and they had asymptomatic Covid, their death was Covid related

 

[probinson]

Roughly the same number of people died, but the cause of death was predominantly listed as Covid, or from complications due to Covid, or Covid related. Like it was being said in 2020, someone gets hit by a fast moving train, and they had asymptomatic Covid, their death was Covid related

Yes, and that is why looking at all-cause mortality and excess deaths is so important. If there are a larger number of COVID deaths but a relatively flat rate of all-cause mortality, then we didn't "save lives". We simply traded them to other causes.

 

[ozso]

Yes, and that is why looking at all-cause mortality and excess deaths is so important. If there are a larger number of COVID deaths but a relatively flat rate of all-cause mortality, then we didn't "save lives". We simply traded them to other causes.

Remember the stories of stacks of bodies piled everywhere?

 

[Say it aint so]

You do know the difference between a "recommendation" and a "mandate", right? And you do know that the last time you posted this, I posted an image from an article showing extremely few people in Sweden actually heeded this "recommendation", right?



Sure. There were some changes. Sweden did implement some mitigation measures, but there's not question they were FAR more relaxed than the rest of the world.



Sure. If you had the whole world baselessly screeching about how you were killing people in some grand experiment (by simply following your pre-established pandemic plan), you'd be feeling some pressure/



If I had a dime for every straightforward question I've asked you that you've failed to answer in this thread...



I did answer this in detail. See post #303.

Two points.
The first. Sweden made changes because of the way they initially decided to handle covid wasn't preventing the rising rates. Which really is going to happen. We made changes as well. The second, you won't answer my question. But that's okay it was rhetorical, because we both know the answer to the question.

 

[probinson]

The first. Sweden made changes because of the way they initially decided to handle covid wasn't preventing the rising rates.

I know you really want to believe that. But history and the data is against you.

The second, you won't answer my question.

I did. I even posted a link to the answer. You just didn't like what I said.

But that's okay it was rhetorical, because we both know the answer to the question.

No, we don't. It doesn't seem that you know what the word "know" means. You're asking me to tell you what would have happened in a counterfactual, and the only real answer is, we have no idea. We can only speculate, which is quite different than "knowing". I know that you need to believe that it would have been so much worse so that you can justify your position, but that is highly dependent on countless other unknowable factors.

For example, ad the US not locked down, there are countless other things that could have been done to mitigate deaths, not the least of which was NOT sending symptomatically ill elderly people away from hospitals and back to their long-term care facilities to infect and kill countless other elderly people. That would have had a profound, positive impact on the number of deaths.

 

[KCfromNC]

Seems like the blue line is lower than every other line, even with a slight increase in 2020.

Not sure of the relevance to their covid response. I mean, if you cut off the feet of a 7 foot tall person, they're still above average but it doesn't mean they're doing well.

 

[KCfromNC]

You sure are persistent(ly wrong).

I'm sure you wish this were true, just like any number of other claims in similar posts in this thread.

So yes, while there was a slight increase in all-cause mortality in 2020, we can see that it was, in part, because of a lower average mortality in 2019

The previously posted data showed the increase in 2020 lined up pretty well with covid deaths. How are those in any way related to the lower mortality in 2019?

Further, age-standardized mortality, as compared to other countries that followed "THE SCIENCE™" and did "the right thing™" is LOWER in Sweden through ALL years of the pandemic (except for Norway in 2020, but then, Norway is trending in the wrong direction now...)

View attachment 329968

That's an impressive increase in 2020.
And then a below average year in 2021, and again in 2022. For some reason, this "years with low death rates cause higher death rates the next" hypothesis doesn't seem to hold in years aside from 2020. I wonder what might have been different in that particlar year that led to the increased death rate?

 

[Say it aint so]

I know you really want to believe that. But history and the data is against you.



I did. I even posted a link to the answer. You just didn't like what I said.



No, we don't. It doesn't seem that you know what the word "know" means. You're asking me to tell you what would have happened in a counterfactual, and the only real answer is, we have no idea. We can only speculate, which is quite different than "knowing". I know that you need to believe that it would have been so much worse so that you can justify your position, but that is highly dependent on countless other unknowable factors.

For example, ad the US not locked down, there are countless other things that could have been done to mitigate deaths, not the least of which was NOT sending symptomatically ill elderly people away from hospitals and back to their long-term care facilities to infect and kill countless other elderly people. That would have had a profound, positive impact on the number of deaths.

It's a no or yes question.
Do you think the US would have fared better if we enacted the same initial actions as Sweden.
No we wouldn't have fared better, or yes, we would have fared better? Which one? And I am asking you.

 

[probinson]

Not sure of the relevance to their covid response. I mean, if you cut off the feet of a 7 foot tall person, they're still above average but it doesn't mean they're doing well.

What a strange analogy, but it illustrates the flaw in your argument.

The purpose of public health measures are to improve health and longevity of life, not to prevent just ONE method of death. So let's look at at again.

If the jump in the blue line (Sweden) concerns you in 2020, are you equally concerned by the jump in the pink (New Zealand), yellow (Norway) and cyan (Finland) lines from 2021-2022? I mean, Sweden definitely had an increase from 2019-2020 (afar a significant decrease from 2018-2019), but those other three countries that you say did such an amazing job experienced considerably higher jumps than Sweden.