Pagans and Witches

[April_May_mylittleangel]

Hey, I was born into chriistion society, went to catholic school that made us read the bible right through atleast once. I kno alot of peole whom ar e against wicca, satanism and many otherr religeons that the bible frowns on. I myself get annoyed and protective when they discriminate other people with another belief. I dont see wats soo wrong. If the bible is correct. It says "you shall not judge, lest you be judged yourself" and "God loves all his creations faithfully". well they are shorter versions of the verses. In my opinion, it doesnt matter what they believe in. But who they are.

 

[ravenwolf]

Hey,
just popped in on this thread...
i'm glad there are at least some open minded christians here...its a ncie breath of fresh air from hearing the ones preaching about hell fire, judgment, and satan worship!!!
Blessings
~ravenwolf

 

[April_May_mylittleangel]

I myself have no problem against wiccan, pagan, christian, jewish or any other religeon. Though I know plentyt of people out there do. I was brought up as a roman catholic yet I am not so sure that what I have been told to believe is what i ACTUALLY believe. Even though my family does not aprove, I'm actually interested on learning about the other religeons like wiccan, paganism and buddahism. Anyway, some-one who worships the devil is a Satanist or Gothic believer. What I know of wicca and paganism is that they do not exactly worship a single god, but nature. I may be wrong but that is what i have been told by my wiccan friend. Anyway, Any-one who discriminates you because of your religeon shouldn't be noticed. You should be proud to be an individual and able to make your choice to believe in your own religeon. Don't follow the croud. If it feels 'right' to you. Then you are in the right direction. Every-one to their own.

 

[NOTW]

I myself have no problem against wiccan, pagan, christian, jewish or any other religeon.

Me neither

Though I know plenty of people out there do. I was brought up as a roman catholic yet I am not so sure that what I have been told to believe is what i ACTUALLY believe.

I don't believe that one should choose a religion based on what he believes in or choose a religion that matches his beliefs. It is not like trying clothes on, seeing if this shirt is your 'style' or not. It's not like that.

Even though my family does not aprove, I'm actually interested on learning about the other religeons like wiccan, paganism and buddahism. Anyway, some-one who worships the devil is a Satanist or Gothic believer. What I know of wicca and paganism is that they do not exactly worship a single god, but nature. I may be wrong but that is what i have been told by my wiccan friend.

I don't know a lot about that either, so I can really say.

Anyway, Any-one who discriminates you because of your religeon shouldn't be noticed. You should be proud to be an individual and able to make your choice to believe in your own religeon. Don't follow the croud. If it feels 'right' to you. Then you are in the right direction. Every-one to their own.

I agree with you on "anyone who discriminates you because of your religion shouldn't be noticed".

But I disagree with you on "If it feels 'right' to you. Then you are in the right direction. Every-one to their own".
I've posted this somewhere else, but this is what is called "pluralism", which states that everybody is going to be saved through his own belief.
The reason why I disagree with you on this specific point is because Jesus said, "† I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me † (John 14:6)"

 

[ravenscape]

Per your request:



Wicca is one sect of the NeoPagan religious movement. Wicca is a new religion based on a set of rituals written by Gerald Gardner and later amended by his protégé Doreen Valentine in the early part of the 20th century. Some sects of Wicca use Gardner’s original rituals and others have developed rituals based on reconstructions of Pre-Christian Indo-European religious models.



While there is no central organization or dogmatic structure to Wicca generally the following will hold true for most adherents:



The Divine: Wiccans are simultaneously polytheistic, dualistic and monotheistic. NeoPagans in general believe is a multitude of individual personal deities usually passed on pre-Christian pantheons such as the ancient Greek Pantheon, the Norse Pantheon, the Celtic and the Egyptian pantheon are popular cultural sources but thse by no means limit the possibilities. While belief in a multitude of deities is widespread individuals usually develop personal relationships with only a few of these deities. There is a popular saying in the NeoPagan community “all Gods are one God and all Goddesses are one Goddess.” Indicating that these individual deities are parts of greater deities, with the primal God and Goddess being somewhat abstract. Many further believe that the primal God and Goddess are in fact two halves of a unifying Divine being. This unifying Divine being is necessarily rather abstract and not terribly personable. The individual polytheistic deities are considered to be masks or personas of the ultimate Divine. They are in essence co-created by the Divine and the humans who worship and interact with them. This creative process does not change or later the ultimate Divine in any way but rather allows for individual relationships to form between the Divine and individual humans.

This allows for the possibility of worshiping with those who believe differently. Since all Gods are seen as masks or personas of the ultimate Divine no single persona is considered to be better or worse than any other.



Wicca is a Panentheistic religion. Meaning that the Universe is contained within the Divine but not identical to the Divine as in pantheism. Thus the Divine is both immanent (present in the world) and transcendent (above or beyond the world).

Popular NeoPagan art depicts the Divine as a pregnant woman who is carrying the Earth in her womb. It is an apt metaphor in that the Earth (universe) is dependant on the Divine for its existence but is itself differentiated from the Divine itself.



The Universe is not seen as created ex-nilo (out of nothing) but rather out of the Divine itself. Therefore the Universe (and all in it) is not considered to be divine rather it is considered to be sacred. Thus the Universe and all things in it have intrinsic value because they are part of the Divine itself. This concept forms an important facet of NeoPagan ethics.



Animism: Wiccans believe that the Divine manifests throughout everything, nothing is merely a thing or an object. Everything is an expression of the Divine. Everything has a soul, not just humans



Creation: This is probably the most important difference between NeoPagans and Christians. There is no creation myth in Wicca or NeoPaganism. Wiccan’s tend to accept science, and evolution for explanations as to why things and we exist. Wiccan’s do not believe in special creation or that human beings have some special place in the grand scheme of things. Through special creation Christians believe themselves to be separate or above animals and nature, in fact if I remember correctly Christians believe they are given domain over nature. NeoPagans believe that they are a part of nature and no better (and no worse) than any other creature. The end result is Christians believe that they are separate from nature and Wiccans believe that they are simply one part of the whole of nature.



Ethics: Wiccan ethics are contextual in nature and based on the idea of self responsibility. Many times NeoPagans are accused of being relativists but this is not accurate. NeoPagan ethics are individual and based on the unique situations that one finds oneself in. The day to day basis for making moral decisions is based on the rede and the three fold law. The rede (rede literally translates as a ‘piece of good advice’) has a long and convoluted history, modern usage comes for the last lines of a work written by Doreen Valentine “An it harm none, do as thou will” Wiccan’s follow this piece of good advice knowing full well that it is impossible to achieve such a state. The very act of breathing harms countless micro-organisms. All actions have consequences and there is now ay to see all of the possible consequences of our individual actions. The idea is not to achieve such perfection but to become aware of the consequences of ones actions (and inactions) and attempt to make the best possible choice given the set of circumstances on is in.

The three fold law is in fact not a law so much as an observation of the consequences of ones actions. The biblical equivalent is “as you sow, so shall ye reap.” Your actions come back to you and there is no way to avoid the consequences of your decisions.

There are no authoritarian codes of conduct, no list of commandments or rules. One is expected to make the best possible decision in any given situation.



Sin: (SIN meaning willful separation from God and sin meaning disobedience or disregard for specific rules of an authoritarian moral code.) Sin is considered to be a strange concept among Wiccan. First it is considered to be impossible to separate oneself form the Divine, it simply cannot be done. Nor can one live without the Divine presence, ones beliefs about living separate from the Divine are beside the point. Second since there is a complete lack of authoritarian codes of conduct it is impossible to sin.



Time: Christians view time as linear, time began at a specific point and runs in one direction to the present and at some undefined point in the future time will end. NeoPagans view time as cyclical. Time is a series of repeating cycles. Seasons change but winter always returns. The sun sets and will do so again tomorrow. To be born is to die. Rather than view time as a single straight line NeoPagan’s imagine time as a coil or a spiral. Time returns to the same space but not the identical space.

A significant consequence in the different views of time is Christian’s focus on the past and past events. Wiccan’s on the other hand live in the eternal present.



Evil: Wiccan’s do not believe in evil much less the personification of evil in the form of Satan or the devil. Wiccans generally do not see suffering as evidence that there is something fundamentally wrong with the world. The world is not a playing field for the struggles between good and evil. The only “evil” one can find are the unethical things humans do to each other and to other creatures of this world. Death is an intrinsic part of life, not evil. The same can be said for disease, suffering and sadness. There are things in the universe well worth avoiding, some of the m quite terrifying or lethal but that does not make them evil.



Afterlife: Generally Wiccans believe in both reincarnation and a spiritual realm of the dead. This spiritual realm is popularly called the “Summerland” and is considered to be a happy place where souls rest and reflect on the past lives and the future ones. There is not a belief in cross species incarnations, human souls tend to be reborn in humans and canine souls tend to be reborn as dogs. The soul is believed to preexist the body and is considered to be part of the Divine consciousness.



Dogma: There are relatively few core beliefs central to Wicca. There is a popular saying that in Wicca the only dogma is that there is no dogma.

Merry Meet!

Wow Volos. Given how diverse Wicca is I am amazed at what a great job of describing the core that many Wiccans would agree with that you've written here. I don't think I've ever read a description that I so strongly agree with.

Brightest Blessings!

 

[Starcrystal]

Volos,
Many further believe that the primal God and Goddess are in fact two halves of a unifying Divine being.

I believe this in a way, as a Christian. I believe in the Feminine part of God, but I also believe Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, yet having both masculine & feminine qualities - though not homosexual (just in case anyone thought I'm implying that)

The Universe is not seen as created ex-nilo (out of nothing) but rather out of the Divine itself. Therefore the Universe (and all in it) is not considered to be divine rather it is considered to be sacred. Thus the Universe and all things in it have intrinsic value because they are part of the Divine itself. This concept forms an important facet of NeoPagan ethics.

I believe this. While the Bible does say God created from "nothing" in Hebrews, there was still God, so the creation was created from the divine which already existed, and the elements of creation were formed by thought then spoken into existence.

Time: Christians view time as linear, time began at a specific point and runs in one direction to the present and at some undefined point in the future time will end. NeoPagans view time as cyclical. Time is a series of repeating cycles. Seasons change but winter always returns. The sun sets and will do so again tomorrow. To be born is to die. Rather than view time as a single straight line NeoPagan’s imagine time as a coil or a spiral. Time returns to the same space but not the identical space.

Facinating. Not only do I believe this but I was taught about cyclic time in a vision by angelic beings 6 years ago. I believe there is linear time but that is just a temporal thing, and something people perceive as a series of spatial events one after another. Yet linear time is but a tiny part of the greater cyclic time which exists in eternity, which is timelessness, or, the sum of all "times." I also believe there are "parallel times" in the cyclic wheel and it is by accessing these wheels of time that someone is able to see into the future or the past. It's not so much a mysterious spiritual ability as it is that our minds are able to jump out of this linear time and gain access to a portion of cyclic time which can bring you ahead or backwards on the linear time line. I had a diagram of how this works but it's not with me. I also believe the true Biblical teaching includes the concept of cyclic time but it's suppressed by church leaders who feel such things might be a threat to their established theology. In Revelation it says "there shall be time no longer" but after this statement there are events that take place. Explain this.

Funny how this Wiccan thread also was resurrected from the past when my friend Ravenwolf was still posting. Cool.

 

[ezmiralndi]

I saw this and I thought about commenting on it...

I would just like to point out that the "Thou shall not suffer a Witch to live" question has not been answered as of yet. It was posted a long, long time ago and this topic has racked up pages since then, but this question remains unanswered. If someone would be good enough to take it upon themselves to answer this, it would be appreciated.

It's actually a mistranslation of Hebrew manuscript of the word m'khashepah, it means a "evil sorceress" or a "woman who does evil magick" its only qouted as witch in a couple versions.

This is qouted from msn group website of the numerous translations in the many versions of the biblical manuscript.

1. American Standard Version "Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live."
2. The Answer: Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
3. Amplified Bible: You shall not allow a woman to live who practices sorcery.
4. Good News Version: Put to death any woman who practices magic.
5. James Moffatt Translation: You shall not allow any sorceress to live.
6. Jerusalem Bible: You shall not allow a sorceress to live.
7. King James Version: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
8. Living Bible: A sorceress shall be put to death.
9. Modern Language Bible: Allow no sorceress to live.
10. New American Bible: You shall not let a sorceress live.
11. New American Standard Bible: You shall not let a sorceress live.
12. New Century Version: Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
13. New International Version: Do not allow a sorceress to live.
14. New Living Translation: A sorceress must not be allowed to live.
15. New Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live.
16. New World Translation: You must not preserve a sorceress alive.
17. The Promise: Contemporary English Version: Death is the punishment for witchcraft.
18. Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
19. Revised English Bible: You must not allow a witch to live.

original website = groups.msn.com/askawitchcommunity/wiccavsthebible.msnw

There is still the problem that some fundamentalists and conservatives say that wicca's magic is evil no matter how much it helps people. To which I say

 

[Chrono Traveler]

I saw this and I thought about commenting on it...



It's actually a mistranslation of Hebrew manuscript of the word m'khashepah, it means a "evil sorceress" or a "woman who does evil magick" its only qouted as witch in a couple versions.

This is qouted from msn group website of the numerous translations in the many versions of the biblical manuscript.

1. American Standard Version "Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live."
2. The Answer: Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
3. Amplified Bible: You shall not allow a woman to live who practices sorcery.
4. Good News Version: Put to death any woman who practices magic.
5. James Moffatt Translation: You shall not allow any sorceress to live.
6. Jerusalem Bible: You shall not allow a sorceress to live.
7. King James Version: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
8. Living Bible: A sorceress shall be put to death.
9. Modern Language Bible: Allow no sorceress to live.
10. New American Bible: You shall not let a sorceress live.
11. New American Standard Bible: You shall not let a sorceress live.
12. New Century Version: Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
13. New International Version: Do not allow a sorceress to live.
14. New Living Translation: A sorceress must not be allowed to live.
15. New Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live.
16. New World Translation: You must not preserve a sorceress alive.
17. The Promise: Contemporary English Version: Death is the punishment for witchcraft.
18. Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
19. Revised English Bible: You must not allow a witch to live.

original website = groups.msn.com/askawitchcommunity/wiccavsthebible.msnw

There is still the problem that some fundamentalists and conservatives say that wicca's magic is evil no matter how much it helps people. To which I say

These quotes make me think....What about males who use magic?

 

[markie]

hello! i just joined this site last night. i should prolly properly introduce myself before i get on with my post. i'm erica, i'm a 19 year old celtic wiccan from canada.
what brough me to join this site, was the fact that it seems to be a very wide board with alot of different people. i was wondering what everyone's oppinion was on Pagans and Witches. i get discriminated against ALOT because of my religion, and some people dont even take the chance to get to know me. i'm a good person, i'm not mean or bad in any way, yet people judge me because of this.
i was just wondering everyone's oppinion on this. if you think paganism and wicca and generally good religions, just not for you, why do you think that.
if you think they're terrible, why do you think that?
if the bible said nothing about pagans and witches would you still think the same about them? why?
i just wanted some people's oppinions on this cos it seems that alot of people i meet think that pagans and wiccans are bad people, yet they have no understanding of the religion. also, if you guys have any questions for me then feel free to ask.
thanks for your time!
erica

Welcome to the boards Erica. I don't know much about them but from what I've seen no these boards they look like a
nature loving religion that worship's multiple gods and/or goddesses instead of one God. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me from a Christian perspective but looking at it from another point of view, if your going to be a non Christian wicca is just as good as any other and maybe better than some.

 

[ravenscape]

These quotes make me think....What about males who use magic?

Males like Moses?

 

[ezmiralndi]

Males like Moses?

Well Jesus to... cept we all know what happened to him.... and they went into a bit more detail... Ow.

lol

 

[Chrono Traveler]

its not just that...It seems some things in the bible condem females more of the same crime or sin...Ive known it all my life...but It still seems weird.

 

[markie]

true

Hey, I was born into chriistion society, went to catholic school that made us read the bible right through atleast once. I kno alot of peole whom ar e against wicca, satanism and many otherr religeons that the bible frowns on. I myself get annoyed and protective when they discriminate other people with another belief. I dont see wats soo wrong. If the bible is correct. It says "you shall not judge, lest you be judged yourself" and "God loves all his creations faithfully". well they are shorter versions of the verses. In my opinion, it doesnt matter what they believe in. But who they are.

That's true to an extent, God looks on your heart and we shouldn't judge people but we need to judge situations. That word judge can either mean to condemn or to decide. Since Jesus told us to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves it must mean condemn because to be wise as serpent's we have to decide what is right and wrong. So I think what Jesus says in Matthew 7:1 is don't condemn lest you be condemned. These are some Christian concerns about witchcraft. http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/ccwitchcraft.htm
http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/occult.htm

 

[hernyaccent]

I honestly have never had a problem with wiccans. I woould love to know more about wiccan beliefs.

 

[Starcrystal]

Ravenscape,
Males like Moses?

Nice one!

Actually as I explained elsewhere on these debate over Wicca threads, the real "sorcery" of the Old Testement had nothing to do with the practice of Wicca. It was black magic that involved control of people, animals, and often had blood sacrifices involved. Of course God was against such a thing, as I know Wiccans are also against it because it would violate "An ye harm none."